Pretty disappointed, this launches in December?

[Freshock]

The inventory system are genius in my book, so easy to manage equipment for the whole party compared to other games. Think more games will use the same system in the future.

[Mayama]

I believe, though, that for a larger group of players the mechanic will work as intended. I rest-spammed shamelessly in all the games that allowed it. I don't rest-spam in the P:E beta, and quite like that part about it (although some stuff could be tweaked; I get fatigued earlier than I think I ought to, and the stam/health ratio is currently too punishing).

 

I don't know BTW if Josh would consider packratting degenerate; rest-spamming certainly is. So in this case at least IMO the resting mechanic is a clear net gain, whereas the inventory is currently about as annoying as it was in the IE games, without the 'simulationist' benefit of (absurdly permissive) encumbrance mechanics.

 

Tbh you didnt need to rest much because you can steamrole through the beta. Balancing will show if it is really makes the game more tactical.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Mayama

[Gfted1]

^True dat. Well, besides ease (I was playing on Easy), it was more convenient for me to just autoattack. Things were too close to AoE and even though I like to micro the party, I found the pace too fast and requiring too many pauses and updates to bother with the abilities (although Id like to buy the guy/gal that created the Rogue teleport a beer). Theres a lot of things I hope shape up in Beta v2.

[Ashen Rohk]

Solution: Don't play on easy! You can't claim a game was too easy when you play on the lowest difficulty setting and allows you to ignore tactics. I'm not saying ramp it up to PotD but give yourself a bit of a challenge! 

 

N.B. Check me, <100 posts and sassing moderators. I like sailing close to the wind.

[Wintersong]

Solution: Don't play on easy! You can't claim a game was too easy when you play on the lowest difficulty setting and allows you to ignore tactics. I'm not saying ramp it up to PotD but give yourself a bit of a challenge! 

 

N.B. Check me, <100 posts and sassing moderators. I like sailing close to the wind.

I haven't finished the beta yet. Reached the entrance to that dungeon in lion lands. But having played in Normal (after trying Easy), I was able to autoattack my way in most of the encounters. The trade off was more lost health but even then, not much resting done.

[Gfted1]

Solution: Don't play on easy! You can't claim a game was too easy when you play on the lowest difficulty setting and allows you to ignore tactics. I'm not saying ramp it up to PotD but give yourself a bit of a challenge! 

 

N.B. Check me,

 

I was under the impression that the higher difficulty levels simply generated higher rank / more mooks. Have you noticed a difference in enemy tactics (the bum rush) or gameplay speed when you play the higher difficulty levels?

[Stun]

I've noticed that playing on easy is actually more difficult than playing on Normal.

 

But that's probably just a bug.

[Helm]

The inventory system are genius in my book, so easy to manage equipment for the whole party compared to other games. Think more games will use the same system in the future.

I think the icons are way too small and I don't like that the inventory is not limited by weight and/or volume. The endless stash mechanic also trounces on my feeling of immersion.

[PrimeJunta]

@Immortalis There's a big range between "borderline unplayable" (Arcanum) and "perfect" when it comes to systems that reward degenerate tactics. I don't fault Josh for attempting to move the slider, even if he's extremely unlikely to hit "perfect." It can be a tangible improvement over DnD without coming close to "perfect." And yes, I do consider many of Josh's changes to be such tangible improvements.

 

If the end result turns out to be "not fun," that's bad obviously. However, I am not at all convinced that the not-funness is caused by the attempt to not reward degenerate tactics. As I've said before, for me the unique appeal of the IE games is in the richness of the palette -- there's such a huge variety of stuff in there that you can play with in so many ways. That has nothing to do with the grinding, rest-spamming, inventory management, or other similar things. This is also why I enjoyed the later games in the series more than the earlier ones, and why BG1 never really appealed to me -- the beginnings of that bounty are there, but compared to the rest, it's fairly thin gruel.

 

Short version: I believe the IE games would have been even more fun with better mechanics, and I do not believe P:E would be better if it replicated their mechanical flaws. If P:E turns out not to be fun, the reasons will be different.

[Ashen Rohk]

 

Solution: Don't play on easy! You can't claim a game was too easy when you play on the lowest difficulty setting and allows you to ignore tactics. I'm not saying ramp it up to PotD but give yourself a bit of a challenge! 

 

N.B. Check me, <100 posts and sassing moderators. I like sailing close to the wind.

 

I was under the impression that the higher difficulty levels simply generated higher rank / more mooks. Have you noticed a difference in enemy tactics (the bum rush) or gameplay speed when you play the higher difficulty levels?

 

I've certainly noticed that you can't just zerg combat bad guys. Initial observations look like they use skills more/have access to more skills, have a higher 'rank' as you say (I read somewhere that PotD gives you all the mobs from all difficulty at once). At the moment I'm killing Medreth and Nyfre over and over to get familiar with the classes.

 

All in all I'd say it's harder in the fashion you have to use the skills of your class more than once in combat and you can't click attack and go make a coffee. Having said that, a couple of spells (testing out chanter at the moment and OHMYGOD) will drop 'em pretty fast.

[prodigydancer]

I think the icons are way too small and I don't like that the inventory is not limited by weight and/or volume. The endless stash mechanic also trounces on my feeling of immersion.

I'd say that weight should be the limiting factor. As for endless stash, it's just a convenience. Otherwise you have to make trips to some random place (that has enough empty containers) for no reason other than unloading excess items or picking something up. And this adds to meaningful gameplay... how exactly?

Edited August 30, 2014 by prodigydancer

[prodigydancer]

@Immortalis There's a big range between "borderline unplayable" (Arcanum) and "perfect" when it comes to systems that reward degenerate tactics.

If you don't reward "degenerate" tactics you need to make sure that you appropriately reward "legitimate" tactics. E.g. I saw a thread here somewhere stating that spellcasting is currently weak and not competitive. If true, guess what it can do to how (if at all) people will play wizards.

 

In other words insisting that players play the game the way it's "meant" to be played will do you no good if your perfect design vision is crippled by a buggy or incomplete implementation.

Edited August 30, 2014 by prodigydancer

[Mayama]

 

@Immortalis There's a big range between "borderline unplayable" (Arcanum) and "perfect" when it comes to systems that reward degenerate tactics.

If you don't reward "degenerate" tactics you need to make sure that you appropriately reward "legitimate" tactics. E.g. I saw a thread here somewhere stating that spellcasting is currently weak and not competitive. If true, guess what it can do to how (if at all) people will play wizards.

 

In other words insisting that players play the game the way it's "meant" to be played will do you no good if your perfect design vision is crippled by a buggy or incomplete implementation.

 

The game is more or less zero balanced right now, which is common knowledge.

[kworley]

Here's an idea, why don't you withhold your all-important judgement until the game is actually released?

 

Do you really think your premature wordspew is so damn important that it can't wait until it's at all relevant before hitting that post button?

[prodigydancer]

The game is more or less zero balanced right now, which is common knowledge.

Which is exactly my point. It's a long way from zero to acceptable and yet Obsidian seems adamant about releasing the game on schedule. DNF and Diablo 3 have taught us that endless delays with major shifts in project direction aren't always productive. But extra QA passes usually only lead to overall improvements.

Edited August 30, 2014 by prodigydancer

[Silent Winter]

I'd say that weight should be the limiting factor. As for endless stash, it's just a convenience. Otherwise you have to make trips to some random place (that has enough empty containers) for no reason other than unloading excess items or picking something up. And this adds to meaningful gameplay... how exactly?

emphasis mine - you don't have to - I believe the point of it is to make you choose between what to carry and what to leave behind, never to be seen again.

Josh seemed to think that a lot of people were making trips back into dungeons to collect every last 1gp dagger.  Personally, I'd decide between that dagger and the stack of arrows / gem / whatever and then play on.

More role-play-ey, less pack-ratty.

It adds to meaningful gameplay by making you choose.

If you choose to make trips to that remote stash of yours ... well, that's your choice for your game.

[prodigydancer]

Josh seemed to think that a lot of people were making trips back into dungeons to collect every last 1gp dagger.

 

...

 

More role-play-ey, less pack-ratty.

Now this depends on how game economy works. Usually it boils down to one question: is there enough gold (in theory) to buy everything you want in a timely manner?

 

in DA:O, for example, gold was way too scarce with some of the best items only available through vendors.

Edited August 30, 2014 by prodigydancer

[Sensuki]

New build v271 at Pax Prime

 

2hr 43 min

 

http://www.twitch.tv/twitch/c/5027673

[Monte Carlo]

Is the combat dog-piling fixed?

[Mayama]

Might be the recording but it looks like theirs alot more contrast now in outside areas.

[Sensuki]

Is the combat dog-piling fixed?

The bugginess looks fixed, but Rose played her party as Fighter tanks while every other party member spams from range, which tends to be the most effective way to play atm (which is pretty banal) - something needs to be done about that.

[Valeris]

I couldn`t care less if Fighter is "bland" or not. There are other, more important issues at hand regarding classes; if a class is effective, good. Making it "sexy" comes second.

Instead, people should start to wonder if Obsidian expects us to have a cleric in every party in every walkthrough higher then "normal",  or becoming healing potion addicts. (hint hint: More healing utility for paladin and druid).

I guess some people really have to stop being nitpicky about minor concerns like "warrior is effective yet boring" or "my lvl 7 wizard without any plus-might-equipment has  limited use of lvl 1 spells" or "I prefer my combat log in the middle".

Edited August 30, 2014 by Valeris

[Immortalis]

@Immortalis There's a big range between "borderline unplayable" (Arcanum) and "perfect" when it comes to systems that reward degenerate tactics. I don't fault Josh for attempting to move the slider, even if he's extremely unlikely to hit "perfect." It can be a tangible improvement over DnD without coming close to "perfect." And yes, I do consider many of Josh's changes to be such tangible improvements.

 

If the end result turns out to be "not fun," that's bad obviously. However, I am not at all convinced that the not-funness is caused by the attempt to not reward degenerate tactics. As I've said before, for me the unique appeal of the IE games is in the richness of the palette -- there's such a huge variety of stuff in there that you can play with in so many ways. That has nothing to do with the grinding, rest-spamming, inventory management, or other similar things. This is also why I enjoyed the later games in the series more than the earlier ones, and why BG1 never really appealed to me -- the beginnings of that bounty are there, but compared to the rest, it's fairly thin gruel.

 

Short version: I believe the IE games would have been even more fun with better mechanics, and I do not believe P:E would be better if it replicated their mechanical flaws. If P:E turns out not to be fun, the reasons will be different.

 

I'm not saying that though.. I wish you would of read it more closely.. that wasn't my point at all.

[Immortalis]

 

I'd say that weight should be the limiting factor. As for endless stash, it's just a convenience. Otherwise you have to make trips to some random place (that has enough empty containers) for no reason other than unloading excess items or picking something up. And this adds to meaningful gameplay... how exactly?

emphasis mine - you don't have to - I believe the point of it is to make you choose between what to carry and what to leave behind, never to be seen again.

Josh seemed to think that a lot of people were making trips back into dungeons to collect every last 1gp dagger.  Personally, I'd decide between that dagger and the stack of arrows / gem / whatever and then play on.

More role-play-ey, less pack-ratty.

It adds to meaningful gameplay by making you choose.

If you choose to make trips to that remote stash of yours ... well, that's your choice for your game.

 

 

This this this...

 

And introducing the new rest mechanic.. (which I am in favor of btw) reintroduces that degenerative gameplay anyways. Now instead of supposedly running back and forth between a forest and a village to sell daggers.. we will do it for camp supplies. The degenerative gameplay still exists.. it was all a waste of time making the stash essentially pointless if that was his goal.

 

In my opinion:

Stash = Bad - I prefer the player leaving items left behind

Camp Sleeping = Good - You should need to choose when you want to rest after combat.. not just jam the button and quickload if an encounter happened.

 

One is removing choice from the game and one is enforcing tactical decisions.. If your really bad at this game or have nothing better to do.. sure you will cheese those mechanics.. but so what? that doesn't effect my play through in any way.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Immortalis

[mutonizer]

 

Is the combat dog-piling fixed?

The bugginess looks fixed, but Rose played her party as Fighter tanks while every other party member spams from range, which tends to be the most effective way to play atm (which is pretty banal) - something needs to be done about that.

 

 

 

The stream really demonstrates exactly the issue with the Health system for me (I know I focus way too much on that!).

• At no point she had to use any resource really, the fights were cakewalks. She did, but really, no point and not needed, just wanted to show some of the effects and colors, which is fine in streams like this.
• The fights were normally executed: Fighter grabs aggro, others stay at range and kill everything (good trick to avoid showing path-finding issues and cluster fest of combat, but that's to be expected in a marketting stream so no biggy really).
• No real "mistake" were made, just random fights against random creatures. Select all > auto attack, move on.

She fights 2 groups on easy difficulty and while EVERYONE is still maxed out, the dwarf is at 40% Health, forcing her to rest.

 

Then she moves in, fighting TWO easy random spiders. EVERYONE is maxed out and yet the dwarf, again, is at 50% health, forcing her to rest, AGAIN.

She fights another group, everyone is still maxed out and yet rests AGAIN because the dwarf took a beating!

 

4 total cakewalk fights, forcing her to rest 3 times because of one factor you can do nothing about...but spam rest...

 

 

As for stability, nothing shown had any issue in the beta version you guys have from what I've seen and nothing that has issues currently was shown to be fixed (again, from what I've seen).

Edited August 30, 2014 by mutonizer