Overflowing with money.

[Gfted1]

Amen brother.

 

And for the love of god, I hope the inventory auto-stacks items that are the same.

[AGX-17]

I do apologise for double posting:

 

I'd also like to see a detailed system of crime and punishment, with consequences varying from paying substantial weregild, seizure of property and titles, to maybe even indentured servitude somewhat like young Cuchulain.

It's kind of odd to combine a fancy-pants archaic German word for "price" with a misinterpretation of the Celtic (note: not Germanic,) mythological figure Sétanta's voluntary entry into service (until such a time as he could pay to replace the hound,) in order to repay the debt of killing Culaan's hound (in self-defense, the entire matter being the fault of Conchobar,) by his own volition.

 

If you'll excuse me, I've got to sate my Irish blood with some Whisky, lest someone say the word "work."

Edited July 30, 2014 by AGX-17

[Lephys]

Just to be clear, the goal isn't to ensure the player can never ever amass a bunch of money. Just that they can't do so far beyond any and all expenditures in the game.

 

If you're ridiculously frugal and sell everything you can get your hands on for 4 whole chapters, and then you have enough money to buy a bunch of extra stuff, this isn't a problem. If you're not even trying, and by 4 chapters in, you have enough money to succeed in a Bribe check against the head villain of the narrative to get him to stop what he's doing and take up charity work, there's a problem.

[Bryy]

Money Overflow usually isn't a problem if you use items regularly. And you use the items you buy.

[Karranthain]

Just to be clear, the goal isn't to ensure the player can never ever amass a bunch of money. Just that they can't do so far beyond any and all expenditures in the game.

 

If you're ridiculously frugal and sell everything you can get your hands on for 4 whole chapters, and then you have enough money to buy a bunch of extra stuff, this isn't a problem. If you're not even trying, and by 4 chapters in, you have enough money to succeed in a Bribe check against the head villain of the narrative to get him to stop what he's doing and take up charity work, there's a problem.

 

Pretty much. The problem starts when instead of "Should I buy these boots of speed or perhaps a magical claymore?" it becomes "A merchant. I guess I'll buy everything and find out whether it's actually useful to my party later".

 

Simply put, an overabudance of money significantly decreases the need to make strategical choices.

[IndiraLightfoot]

For a change, I'd love to see shops not selling any good magical items at all. In plenty of CRPGs, the first, second or third merchant you stumble upon, suddenly have some fantastical items for sale (meant for like 5-10 levels up those of your party), and also with astronomical price tags. I'd like to get those items by playing the game, not shop around for them at a few hub vendors.

[neo6874]

For a change, I'd love to see shops not selling any good magical items at all. In plenty of CRPGs, the first, second or third merchant you stumble upon, suddenly have some fantastical items for sale (meant for like 5-10 levels up those of your party), and also with astronomical price tags. I'd like to get those items by playing the game, not shop around for them at a few hub vendors.

and then, by the time you're of the requisite level (some games), or have the requisite attribute scores (others), and have the money ... the item is worthless because you found / made something better 2 hours ago.

[Karranthain]

For a change, I'd love to see shops not selling any good magical items at all. In plenty of CRPGs, the first, second or third merchant you stumble upon, suddenly have some fantastical items for sale (meant for like 5-10 levels up those of your party), and also with astronomical price tags. I'd like to get those items by playing the game, not shop around for them at a few hub vendors.

 

I personally enjoy a good mix - that there are some powerful items to be bought (who doesn't love to rush to a nearest merchant in a new area?), but some you'll have to find during your adventures.

 

Some you need to steal or craft (Arcanum). I especially enjoyed findinging and piecing together unique schematics. Now that's fun.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Karranthain: I love piecing together special items. I have another example of this, that's not at all in the IE games tradition, and that's TitanQuest's recipes for legendary/epic items. For some reason, I really enjoyed "the grinding" and the RNG of getting those. For an ARPG, that system is still one of the best. I really hope Grim Dawn follows suit in that regard. I don't want any convoluted epic item crafting, just a system with a nice feel to it.

[wpmaura]

you could always add weight to gold making it a time sink as well.

[JFSOCC]

I may be wrong but I believe having large amounts of money will tie into the prestige value of your stronghold

[IndiraLightfoot]

As one of those who didn't wish for a stronghold á la NWN2, that huge cash flow worries me. What happens to us that won't invest in walls, trades, guards and crops? We will probably be buying lots of expensive items in shops (which I don't want to do). Quite the dilemma. Hmm...

[Silent Winter]

^ a better solution there might be to make the stronghold a source of income as well as a drain.

Those investing in the stronghold will get more from taxes or those stronghold-based missions or whatever, but then need more for its upkeep/building/wages/etc.

That way, simple adventuring money could be balanced for simple adventuring. ... not that adventuring is ever simple

[Lephys]

Well, much of the stronghold's income potential seems to have to do with heavy investments into the stronghold. I mean, it seems that, if it can be attacked, and defenses matter there, then if you don't invest in the defenses, and you have a mountain of gold so huge it is the tallest thing in your stronghold and can be seem shining in the night's moonlight from miles away, you're probably going to get quite plundered.

 

And, as far as what you do with your stronghold money, maybe it's restricted? Maybe what you do with it affects your reputation?

 

"Hey, our lord took all our taxes and tariffs and went and bought solid gold-plated armor and weapons for himself and all his good friends! GET THE PITCHFORKS AND TORCHES!"

[Gleipnir]

Look, my adventurers aren't in this for your revolution, and they're not in it for you, Princess. They expect to be well paid. They're in it for the money.

 

Perhaps multiple endings, á la fallout, depending on how much money and land you managed to hoard for your retirement might be a possible solution?

 

But yes, I cannot stress how much I do not want a "loot all" button hoarding every piece of junk and selling it to the local merchant. An endless list of items I will never look at like Kotor, mass effect, dragon age or any console game really is not my idea of fun at all. Inventory limitations are sometimes good.

[TCJ]

The best game I've played for balance of money is Drakensang 2.  If you looted everything, you'd probably have enough money to barely purchase everything in the game, but because it's that close, a little mismanagement in the money or missing some here and there can cost a little.   You can still get plenty of equipment, but you might have to skip on a piece of equipment here and there.    Every other game I've played I ended up with so much gold I hadn't a clue what to do with it.

[Tartantyco]

The reason why this is a problem in games is because you don't have to pay for basic needs. You don't have to eat or drink, you can sleep in the wilderness with no penalties, there's little in the way of gear maintenance, and whatever such mechanisms there are are generally underpriced. Since PoE will have item durability and bonuses from sleeping in inns, you do at least have some basic expenses. We'll see if there will be more, and if they will be priced high enough.

 

The accumulation of wealth is also hastened when every merchant buys every kind of item, and when items are not devalued by available supply. If the PC comes to a merchant with 300 leather armor that he has no way of re-selling then he shouldn't buy them, and someone selling magic scrolls shouldn't be interested in buying armor. It's a complicated problem that is really only tackled by creating a comprehensive and inter-dependent economic system, but generally developers either don't have the time, funds, or inclination to devote much effort in this area.

[Grand_Commander13]

The lack of basic expenses as a money sink only covers part of it: in RPGs the money faucet of loot tends to be turned on full blast.

 

I've said it before, but it's way better just to not give the players the huge amounts of items to resell in the first place. I like the idea that what the enemy uses is what they drop, but you should only pick their basic gear up if you want to use it yourself. Any potions or scrolls they might have been carrying should be fair game too, obviously. It just becomes a gameplay problem when a player can freely convert a lot of weak stuff into a few excellent items.

 

Realistically, there just shouldn't be a market for all of the gear a player will accumulate on a dungeon crawl.

[Gleipnir]

Perhaps only being able to carry and wear one armor and one shield at a time. It is realistic enough. You don't go around carrying around a bunch of plate mails, EVEN if you could and were strong enough.

[Grand_Commander13]

I don't think a bulk system is in the cards. It would be comparatively far easier to disable the sale of most gear, and reduce prices of purchasable things to compensate if necessary.

[Immortalis]

The reason why this is a problem in games is because you don't have to pay for basic needs. You don't have to eat or drink, you can sleep in the wilderness with no penalties, there's little in the way of gear maintenance, and whatever such mechanisms there are are generally underpriced. Since PoE will have item durability and bonuses from sleeping in inns, you do at least have some basic expenses. We'll see if there will be more, and if they will be priced high enough.

 

The accumulation of wealth is also hastened when every merchant buys every kind of item, and when items are not devalued by available supply. If the PC comes to a merchant with 300 leather armor that he has no way of re-selling then he shouldn't buy them, and someone selling magic scrolls shouldn't be interested in buying armor. It's a complicated problem that is really only tackled by creating a comprehensive and inter-dependent economic system, but generally developers either don't have the time, funds, or inclination to devote much effort in this area.

 

I believe actually that item durability is no longer in the game..

[Lephys]

I believe actually that item durability is no longer in the game..

You are correct, sir.

[Pray]

 

The reason why this is a problem in games is because you don't have to pay for basic needs. You don't have to eat or drink, you can sleep in the wilderness with no penalties, there's little in the way of gear maintenance, and whatever such mechanisms there are are generally underpriced. Since PoE will have item durability and bonuses from sleeping in inns, you do at least have some basic expenses. We'll see if there will be more, and if they will be priced high enough.

 

The accumulation of wealth is also hastened when every merchant buys every kind of item, and when items are not devalued by available supply. If the PC comes to a merchant with 300 leather armor that he has no way of re-selling then he shouldn't buy them, and someone selling magic scrolls shouldn't be interested in buying armor. It's a complicated problem that is really only tackled by creating a comprehensive and inter-dependent economic system, but generally developers either don't have the time, funds, or inclination to devote much effort in this area.

 

I believe actually that item durability is no longer in the game..

 

I actually quite like that. It's tedious to say the least.

[Karranthain]

The lack of basic expenses as a money sink only covers part of it: in RPGs the money faucet of loot tends to be turned on full blast.

 

I've said it before, but it's way better just to not give the players the huge amounts of items to resell in the first place. I like the idea that what the enemy uses is what they drop, but you should only pick their basic gear up if you want to use it yourself. Any potions or scrolls they might have been carrying should be fair game too, obviously. It just becomes a gameplay problem when a player can freely convert a lot of weak stuff into a few excellent items.

 

Realistically, there just shouldn't be a market for all of the gear a player will accumulate on a dungeon crawl.

 

That reminds me...remember the Raider camp in Fallout?

 

By the time we left it completely destroyed me and Ian were lugging about 15 leather armours, several spears and Desert Eagles around.

 

Which I then used to blow up the Hub economy.

[Grand_Commander13]

Yeah. You'll note that you can't loot armor anymore in Fallout 2; I can only imagine that all of the wealth you could get from the armor was part of the reason for that.