Piracy or not?

[BruceVC]

Bruce, this is not the Ukraine thread. Perhaps if you want to talk about particular posters and the Ukraine, do it in the Ukraine thread?

 

I don't post in that thread anymore and I was responding directly to a comment from Mamoulian if that's alright with you?

[Mor]

Games are priced at the level most will pay for them; it's always been like that ~with everything (clothes, food, shelter, entertainments).

The obvious problem with that analog, that in the real world we are on a tight budget, if something is too pricey we wait for the price to drop, buy another cheaper product, or not buy anything at all. Which is not true for the internet where you can easily grab it and get away with it.

 

And even better if you're smart and wait until they're on a sale like Steam or GOG.

Indeed, just like with everything else ( e.g. hardware\gadget ) releases are always "overpriced", they are geared toward the early adopters who pay extra to the first. For the rest of us if you wait a little you usually get a cheaper, better product product - in our case cheaper, less bugged and mod ready (if you are PC user) games. Which is the problem, many want it NOW.

 

Because, I don't know a single person in my life who doesn't download illegaly. None of my relatives, friends or colleagues watch Game of thrones on HBO. Even a friend of mine, who is a software developer doesn't think twice before downloading music, series, movies or games. None of the students at my university mind sharing PDF version of a book for free. So I find it really hard to believe.

 

If people pirate, let them. There is nothing you can do to stop them. This simply means that you need to accept that the world is changing. Companies/artist have already accepted that by adapting to it (online gamplay modes/concerts).

On the foot of the last paragraph, this is exactly the reason why we see more and more aggressive licences/DRMs or why always online mechanism for games move to become standard, because many of those on limited budget will choose to spend their money on those games, because unlike the rest those they can't get otherwise. And - "There is nothing you can do to stop them. This simply means that you need to accept that the world is changing."

 

 

p.s. in my posts, I mostly address the young and/or retards who live in Robinhood-esk fantasy world. However, they don't represent the whole gamer/online-consumer demographic, which I believe is a well known fact and need not to be addressed.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Mor

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

I don't post in that thread anymore and I was responding directly to a comment from Mamoulian if that's alright with you?

 

I would rather not have the thread derailed if that's alright with you?

 

 

The problem with that is that you are talking about the American market, where as I'm talking about countries in which piracy is widespread and a part of everyday life. The price for those markets is way too high.

 

Also what about Australia, games are a 100$ there, other software prices are also unproportionally higher, how would you explain that?

 

 

TBH, I don't really have a problem with some of the prices in Australia with PC games.

 

I bought Diablo II in 2000 for $99.00. The box still has the price tag on it. In 2013, that would be $139.93 according to the RBA website. Diablo 3 boxed edition sold for $80 rrp (and could get it cheaper in some retail outlets for less) and the CE sold for $138.00 which is approximately what games sold for back in 2000. The standard edition of Diablo 3 is far cheaper now than it would have been back in 2000. Red Alert 2 CE boxed copy that I bought in 2000 was $119.00 which was damn expensive back then. Today, it would be $172.32. So what I've seen is prices remain around the same with inflation or gone down quite considerably.

 

And I have to chuckle when I see on Australian forums with gamers trying to save one or two dollars with getting a new release game (cd keys) and it's half the price I paid for games nearly 15 years ago. One person will say I found a deal with a game being $52 and another gamer saying I found it for $51 and a third saying they found it for $50.

 

What I dislike is the discrepancy with Digital distribution. Such as a game on Steam will be US$50 for US residents and US$85 for Australians. The same game on the same platform, but because your IP is different you pay more. Which is why I never buy games on Steam. Never have, never will.

 

And it's even more absurd when Steam won't reduce the cost and keep it at US$85 eight months later and yet the distributor/stores will reduce the price of the physical copy and I can pick up that same game in a store for around $28. Same day, same game, different prices. This happened with Rage back in June 2012. And it appears not much has changed since.

 

If you're talking about Adobe and other apps and products. Then yes, it's downright criminal what they're doing which is why there was a parliamentary inquiry into it. Never bought any Adobe products. But I do find their apps to be quite good.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Sarex]

What I dislike is the discrepancy with Digital distribution. Such as a game on Steam will be US$50 for US residents and US$85 for Australians. The same game on the same platform, but because your IP is different you pay more. Which is why I never buy games on Steam. Never have, never will. And it's even more absurd when Steam won't reduce the cost and keep it at US$85 and yet the distributor/stores will reduce the price of the physical copy and I can pick up that same game in a store for around $28. Same day, same game, different prices. This happened with Rage back in 2012. And it appears not much has changed since.

 

If you're talking about Adobe and other apps and products. Then yes, it's downright criminal what they're doing which is why there was a parliamentary inquiry into it. Never bought any Adobe products. But I do find their apps to be quite good.

 

That is what I was talking about.

[Chilloutman]

 

So in your opinion only people who live in a particular country can give an informed view about an event or situation in that country?

 

You do realize there is only one person on these forums, as far as I know,  who lives in Ukraine and has commented in that discussion and its not Sarex?

 

Do you realise that Slovakia is neighbour of Ukraine?

Edited June 5, 2014 by Chilloutman

[HoonDing]

You can see Russia from Alaska.

[Mamoulian War]

 

 

 

Hm, just like the Ukraine thread, in a way

 

Funny how Sarex is the common link in both discussions, tells you something about his debating etiquette

 

 

And I find funny how many people from another part of the world think, they know better about what's going on in Ukraine, because Fox News or some similar "news" said so...

 

 

So in your opinion only people who live in a particular country can give an informed view about an event or situation in that country?

 

You do realize there is only one person on these forums, as far as I know,  who lives in Ukraine and has commented in that discussion and its not Sarex?

 

 

Only one reply to this, because I do not want to derail thread and I never talk about politics on internet.

 

The fact is that the far away are you living from the place of conflict, the more skewed the news are, that is the fact, because like it or not, US, EU and Russia all have their own political and economical agendas in Ukraine and most of the medias are far away from independent on covering most of what is happening, including most of the medias here in Slovakia.

 

Another fact is that Ukrainian citizens, (it depends not if they have Ukrainian, Russian or another nationality), know the best what is happening there. But you still have to cherry pick these information as well, because some of them are doing propaganda of their own side as well.

 

The situation, as always, is not Black and White, it is in thousands shades of grey and both sides of the conflict believe in their own truth.

[Malcador]

 

Hm, just like the Ukraine thread, in a way

 

Funny how Sarex is the common link in both discussions, tells you something about his debating etiquette

 

 

Uh huh, amusing from you.

 

Anyway, what's the issue now ? Piracy damage to the industry ?

[Elerond]

 

Some games just have very high production cost, which means that they need to actually sell millions of games to be even break-even let alone to make profit. Like for example Tomb Raider's big sell figures weren't enough to cover its over $100 million budget, which was the reason why Square Enix said that it didn't reach its sale goal when it has sold "only" 3.4 million copies, as it needed to sell about 5 million copies to break-even (which it now has done, selling over 6 million copies).

 

I remember reading that they covered their production costs with the initial sales, but that the stock holders weren't satisfied with the numbers and thus considered it a failure. I could be wrong about that, I read it a while ago.

 

They broke-even end of the last year, by statements given by Tomb Raider's executive producer.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-01-17-tomb-raider-finally-achieved-profitability-by-the-end-of-last-year

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

Hm, just like the Ukraine thread, in a way

 

Funny how Sarex is the common link in both discussions, tells you something about his debating etiquette

 

 

And I find funny how many people from another part of the world think, they know better about what's going on in Ukraine, because Fox News or some similar "news" said so...

 

 

So in your opinion only people who live in a particular country can give an informed view about an event or situation in that country?

 

You do realize there is only one person on these forums, as far as I know,  who lives in Ukraine and has commented in that discussion and its not Sarex?

 

 

Only one reply to this, because I do not want to derail thread and I never talk about politics on internet.

 

The fact is that the far away are you living from the place of conflict, the more skewed the news are, that is the fact, because like it or not, US, EU and Russia all have their own political and economical agendas in Ukraine and most of the medias are far away from independent on covering most of what is happening, including most of the medias here in Slovakia.

 

Another fact is that Ukrainian citizens, (it depends not if they have Ukrainian, Russian or another nationality), know the best what is happening there. But you still have to cherry pick these information as well, because some of them are doing propaganda of their own side as well.

 

The situation, as always, is not Black and White, it is in thousands shades of grey and both sides of the conflict believe in their own truth.

 

 

That's a good post and this will also be my last comment because I don't want to get accused of derailing the thread despite the fact several of us are discussing it ( Hi Hiro  )

 

I agree with most of what saying. But don't underestimate the accuracy of reporters that are based in Ukraine and are reporting for international news channels and there reporting contains the same information. Surely you can see there must be truth to what they are saying?

[Mor]

What I dislike is the discrepancy with Digital distribution. Such as a game on Steam will be US$50 for US residents and US$85 for Australians. The same game on the same platform, but because your IP is different you pay more. Which is why I never buy games on Steam. Never have, never will.

Uhm yes.. different "IP" means: different currency/exchange-rates; different income, taxes and cost of living; and various import restrictions approval mechanisms - so yes location location location, is still a thing in the real world, I am not sure why are you surprised.

 

And it's even more absurd when Steam won't reduce the cost and keep it at US$85 and yet the distributor/stores will reduce the price of the physical copy and I can pick up that same game in a store for around $28. Same day, same game, different prices. This happened with Rage back in 2012. And it appears not much has changed since.

Uhm.. are you suggesting that they should be price fixing? Because the absurdity here is that other companies (e.g. EA ) has been railing against steam for devaluing games with their frequent cheap sales.. and in my experience steam sales are far more excess-able, frequent and substantial, then anything I found in a store. So as far as I am concerned steam is driving the prices down not the other way around.

 

Other that that, yes different distributors has different prices at various times, there is nothing surprising with this, wrong with them doing it, or you exploiting it which is called being a smart consumer.

 

If you're talking about Adobe and other apps and products. Then yes, it's downright criminal what they're doing which is why there was a parliamentary inquiry into it. Never bought any Adobe products. But I do find their apps to be quite good.

If they are doing anything illegal, there are legal ways to deal with it. What is certainly illegal is you pirating their products, especially when there are enough of free alternative products which you can use, so keep the retreaded excuses for piracy to yourself. ( today it seem that every kid needs to have Adobe Photoshop, so he can make his forum sig ) Edited June 5, 2014 by Mor

[Hurlshort]

Yes, let's just have people blatantly admitting to piracy on a software developer's forum.  That's super classy.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

Uhm yes.. different "IP" means: different currency/exchange-rates; different income, taxes and cost of living; and various import restrictions approval mechanisms - so yes location location location, is still a thing in the real world, I am not sure why are you surprised. 

 

 

Different exchange rates? For quite some time the AUD was worth more than the USD therefore the value of the software on Steam should have been cheaper than the US price. Not more than 1.5 times the price. And various import restrictions? What various import restrictions are we talking about when downloading the same game from Steam to Australia as opposed to the U.S.? Rage had no more import restrictions than it did in the U.S.? So what are these various import restrictions you are talking about? Taxes? What taxes do Australians pay on a download from Steam? Or from various other sites like GOG or buying BG:EE from Beamdog? There's none. There is no tax that I pay to the Australian Tax Office if I buy a game from GOG or if I buy a game from Beamdog or if I buy a game from Amazon.co.uk or if I buy a CD key from some other overseas website.

 

So everything you have said is just made up.

 

 

Uhm.. are you suggesting that they should be price fixing? Because the absurdity here is that other companies (e.g. EA ) has been railing against steam for devaluing games with their frequent cheap sales.. and in my experience steam sales are far more excess-able, frequent and substantial, then anything I found in a store. So as far as I am concerned steam is driving the prices down not the other way around.

 

Other that that, yes different distributors has different prices at various times, there is nothing surprising with this, wrong with them doing it, or you exploiting it which is called being a smart consumer. 

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean by price fixing. I haven't suggested anything about they should be price fixing in a negative way. Although 'fixing' the price to be similar as the local market would go a long way in their prices.

 

Perhaps in your country Steam has been driving prices down. It's not been the case here in Australia. And there are various examples I can give. I gave one with Rage. Steam keeps the price at the RRP eight months after release while the distributors and the stores in Australia have already reduced the price of the same game from its original AUD$90.00 price tag to $28.00. This is 8 months later. The absurdity is Steam is quite often out of touch with different markets when they don't lower the price of certain games.

 

 

 

If they are doing anything illegal, there are legal ways to deal with it. What is certainly illegal is you pirating their products, especially when there are enough of free alternative products which you can use, so keep the retreaded excuses for piracy to yourself. ( today it seem that every kid needs to have Adobe Photoshop, so he can make his forum sig )

 

I haven't said I've pirated their products. If you want to take what I said and jump to conclusions, that's your prerogative. And I haven't made any excuses. It does show that I can write two totally different sentences and people can infer and jump to conclusions. There was no implication on my part even if you want to try and connect the two. I use adobe products at work and the company buys them. It does show how judgemental people can be on these forums without all the facts.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Yes, let's just have people blatantly admitting to piracy on a software developer's forum.  That's super classy.

 

You're referring to me? Read my post above.

[ShadySands]

 

Yes, let's just have people blatantly admitting to piracy on a software developer's forum.  That's super classy.

 

You're referring to me? Read my post above.

 

 

He's referring to me

 

 

I'm both a pirate and super classy

Edited June 5, 2014 by ShadySands

[Bester]

  If I can't find it, I give up and go watch something different.  My life isn't really dramatically different because I didn't get to watch the Mountain fight the Viper.  

Oh, the things people try to convince themselves of. Some beautiful self-deception there, magnificent!

[Gromnir]

 

Some games just have very high production cost, which means that they need to actually sell millions of games to be even break-even let alone to make profit. Like for example Tomb Raider's big sell figures weren't enough to cover its over $100 million budget, which was the reason why Square Enix said that it didn't reach its sale goal when it has sold "only" 3.4 million copies, as it needed to sell about 5 million copies to break-even (which it now has done, selling over 6 million copies).

 

I remember reading that they covered their production costs with the initial sales, but that the stock holders weren't satisfied with the numbers and thus considered it a failure. I could be wrong about that, I read it a while ago.

 

you is being particularly carefree with the fallacies today. am suspecting it has something to do with your untenable position, but that is a guess.

 

"And I want games to be cheaper, especially now that they are mostly digital, I also want dlc to be reasonably priced (compared to their size) but hey why should they care what I want."

 

non-sequitur, or do you have a point? just posting random nonsense is hardly constructive, but it is becoming a trend.

 

"The problem with that is that they have a funny way of gauging the point at which the game is profitable. A normal person would think that a game would be profitable if it covers it's production cost, but it seems it ain't so."

 

actually, profit and profitable are two separate things. 

 

http://www.nma-fallout.com/showthread.php?152662-Briareus-speaks-out&p=3024645&viewfull=1#post3024645

 

is just one example.

 

the publisher needs investors, and investors need a far better return than simple profit to make their high-risk investment profitable. is any of this getting through?

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps for folks that don't know, briareus were a black isle developer

 

Coming from you that's rich.

 

You said the companies want something, I said the consumer wants something too. The companies aren't too broken up about what the consumer wants so why should the consumer care what the companies want?

 

My point exactly, why should we care that they didn't meet their ridiculously high numbers? That doesn't mean we should buy more or pay at a higher price, it means that those people need to reevaluate what kind of profit they can make from games.

your characterizations is amusing broad.  you is quite terrible at being reasonable. elerond already pointed out the bad logic, so we won't retrace that point, but your notions o' what is acceptable profit is... cute.

 

expecting investors to be reevaluating what is acceptable profit to meet your childish notions is narcissistic and fanciful. briareus, Gromnir and others is telling you the way things is, not the way things should be. after all, game publishers can't run their business on the sarex model of acceptable profits, and lord knows your piracy won't bring 'bout some kinda trotskyist epiphany on the part o' publishers and developers. seriously, how resilient to reason is you gonna be on this matter? is axiomatic that if investors can make more money investing in real estate, or even a savings account or mutual funds, then the shareholder/stockholders/investors who is  currently putting their money into game development will  find better investments. by definition, any business that sells public stock is in business to make money.  your piracy won't change that. if you and every other disgruntled purchaser didn't buy games, that might help change things, but piracy sure won't be the thing to convince publishers that a reasonable rate of return for investors is teh evil. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Chilloutman]

wait, isnt pirating same thing as not buying in terms of profit for producer?

[Gromnir]

wait, isnt pirating same thing as not buying in terms of profit for producer?

as vol would says, "no."

 

also, 

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66262-piracy-or-not/?p=1454894

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Malcador]

Yes, let's just have people blatantly admitting to piracy on a software developer's forum.  That's super classy.

 

I've used Visual Studio, but never paid for it.  Company did - which is what I'd imagine he meant, heh, so need to get miffed.

[Sarex]

your characterizations is amusing broad.  you is quite terrible at being reasonable. elerond already pointed out the bad logic, so we won't retrace that point, but your notions o' what is acceptable profit is... cute.

 

expecting investors to be reevaluating what is acceptable profit to meet your childish notions is narcissistic and fanciful. briareus, Gromnir and others is telling you the way things is, not the way things should be. after all, game publishers can't run their business on the sarex model of acceptable profits, and lord knows your piracy won't bring 'bout some kinda trotskyist epiphany on the part o' publishers and developers. seriously, how resilient to reason is you gonna be on this matter? is axiomatic that if investors can make more money investing in real estate, or even a savings account or mutual funds, then the shareholder/stockholders/investors who is  currently putting their money into game development will  find better investments. by definition, any business that sells public stock is in business to make money.  your piracy won't change that. if you and every other disgruntled purchaser didn't buy games, that might help change things, but piracy sure won't be the thing to convince publishers that a reasonable rate of return for investors is teh evil. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Where did you get all that from? I didn't even say half those things... Also jumping to conclusions much? I simply said that I don't care that those shareholders don't make large profits, be it games/movies/medications/anything else realy. Most corporations have shown them self for what they are, money hungry companies who won't stop at anything to make a buck. In fact they are the number 1 thing that is wrong in the world today.

 

 

as vol would says, "no."

 

also, 

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66262-piracy-or-not/?p=1454894

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Sing me up for a NO on that "no" of yours. Not everyone that pirates would buy the game, in fact most people who pirate wouldn't buy the game. On the flip side of the coin arguments have been made that pirates are free marketing and bring in more sales.

[Chilloutman]

 

wait, isnt pirating same thing as not buying in terms of profit for producer?

as vol would says, "no."

 

also, 

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66262-piracy-or-not/?p=1454894

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Sorry, my math is not strongest, but if producer make 0 for not selling, or 0 for someone else pirate it, its still 0 in my book, am I missing something?

[Gromnir]

where did we get it? what thread are you reading?

 

"Coming from you that's rich.

 

"You said the companies want something, I said the consumer wants something too. The companies aren't too broken up about what the consumer wants so why should the consumer care what the companies want?

 

"My point exactly, why should we care that they didn't meet their ridiculously high numbers? That doesn't mean we should buy more or pay at a higher price, it means that those people need to reevaluate what kind of profit they can make from games."

 

so, am gonna essentially repeat our self by responding to same nonsense again.  

 

as a corporate entity that sells shares, publishers rasion detre is to be making money. you don't like it? you says "most" companies is baddie no-goodnicks? HA! you is making your position less tenable and not more with your complaints 'bout Gromnir characterizations of your posting. piracy will not fix your imagined evils, regardless o' the strawman 'bout "ridiculous high numbers," whatever the hell that means. what the consumer wants is expressed by how they spend their dollars or euros or whatever. you don't like what a publisher is selling? Shocking Revelation: you don't have to buy what they is selling. 

 

...

 

this is getting ludicrous, even for Gromnir.

 

"Sing me up for a NO on that "no" of yours. Not everyone that pirates would buy the game, in fact most people who pirate wouldn't buy the game. On the flip side of the coin arguments have been made that pirates are free marketing and bring in more sales."

 

​didn't even bother to reply to the weak-sauce.  you is much attached to "most" silliness today. so, prove it. the act o' piracy is rather compelling initial evidence that an individual wanted the intellectual property in question. so, rebut that. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited June 5, 2014 by Gromnir

[Sarex]

 

where did we get it? what thread are you reading?

 

"Coming from you that's rich.

 

"You said the companies want something, I said the consumer wants something too. The companies aren't too broken up about what the consumer wants so why should the consumer care what the companies want?

 

"My point exactly, why should we care that they didn't meet their ridiculously high numbers? That doesn't mean we should buy more or pay at a higher price, it means that those people need to reevaluate what kind of profit they can make from games."

 

so, am gonna essentially repeat our self by responding to same nonsense again.  

 

as a corporate entity that sells shares, publishers rasion detre is to be making money. you don't like it? you says "most" companies is baddie no-goodnicks? HA! you is making your position less tenable and not more with your complaints 'bout Gromnir characterizations of your posting. piracy will not fix your imagined evils, regardless o' the strawman 'bout "ridiculous high numbers," whatever the hell that means. what the consumer wants is expressed by how they spend their dollars or euros or whatever. you don't like what a publisher is selling? Shocking Revelation: you don't have to buy what they is selling. 

 

...

 

this is getting ludicrous, even for Gromnir.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Again who said piracy is going to fix anything. My opinion is right there where you quoted me. They don't care about us I don't care about them...

[BruceVC]

 

 

...

 

this is getting ludicrous, even for Gromnir.

 

"

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

 

" this is getting ludicrous, even for Gromnir"

 

No Gromnir don't give up, it will be a first for you and your record for debating right to the end will be ruined. Be resolute !!!!