Drop your heretic thoughts on CRPGs and RPG systems here

[IndiraLightfoot]

As my first thread is nearing the end of its life-cycle, I decided most haughtily to start a new one, but this time I've expanded it a bit, since the at the end of that thread, an interesting influx of blasphemous opinion on RPG systems emerged, such as this list of opinions on the Wisdom attribute in D&D:

 

Wisdom is a horrible idea to have as an attribute, and clerics who worship gods whose sole goal is to bring chaos and destruction to the world should not have Wisdom scores of 18 (or above 6-ish, for that matter).

 

 

My p&p games did away with Wisdom and made Charisma the default ability of the Clergy, for the gathering of followers to the faith and pleas to their Deity, for the Demonic/Diabolic priesthoods that Charisma figured into their infernal bargaining. Wisdom is experience in my view, and I implemented Willpower in its place.

 

 

If we're going to discuss all the less-than-sensible parts of DnD and its clones we're going to be here a looong time.

 

I sure hope so!

 

 

I never really understood Wisdom. It's like DC saying Will is an emotion.

 

 

 

 

 

It can be if you pass a Willpower check.

 

 

 

 

 

You guys simply don't get how wisdom works in DnD espicially in regards to priests, godes, and the like.  Such ignorance is shameful when spekaing on topic.s I thoguht this was the 'blasphemous opinions' thread not the 'ignorant opinions' thread. L0L

 

Now, guys, spill your hearts out, and enjoy the therapeutic cleansing that comes with it!

Edited April 7, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Undecaf]

I'm having more fun with the gameplay of Wasteland than I ever did with Fallout 3 or New Vegas (though still less so than back in early 90's). I'd guess that could be considered somewhat heretical by todays standards.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Undecaf

[IndiraLightfoot]

Undecaf: Heretic or not, that sounds really promising for WL2!

[Oerwinde]

I played Wasteland for about 5 minutes before concluding that its graphics made it unenjoyable, this was when backers of Wasteland 2 were given free copies. I also felt this way about the Bards Tale games when I watched my friend play them in the 90s.

[Janmanden]

I love adventure games and there is an abundance of Adventure games that are passed down as RPG's without being it, but as long my curiosity is sated and I am entertained I am jolly and dandy, when I am forced into hopelessly stupid and retarded dialogue however I lose interest. Pretty much all games I play seems to be about love and hate and learning about how not-to-play, generally speaking.

 

• I don't think dialogue is an element of CRPG, because it's all about mood and you don't step into character by words, but by action and there is rarely any choice in action. I still remember this scene from Bloodlines where someone begs for his life.. There was even such a moment for the Bounty Hunter on Hutta in SWTOR, that really haunted me. That's how it should be all the time, but it's all just cannon-foddering and rarely any gloating..  
• I don't think BioWares ME series is CRPG at all, but an Action Adventure, which is emphasized by the 'gamble' nature of dialogue i.e. if you don't know what you are saying how can you deliberately pick anything? (Rhetorical). ME1 is more adventure and ME3 is much more action.. Dialogues are just for laughs and ME1 made me laugh a few times, while both ME2 and ME3 was pretty yawnsome, on the fun factor, in comparison.
• Fallout 2 and BG are the only CRPG games I've ever played and Fallout 2 fails in the end and upon every encounter with the enclave, because it overrides your play and ties you into a fixed role.
• Fixed roles, to save the universe or your tribe or something else that ties you into a different role makes RPG fail. If you are worse than the bad guys and your actually on the same side, then why are you always opposed.. because of storyline and fixed dialogue.. 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Realism in fantastical RPGs is stupid. If a wizard can say a few words and call down a comet, then boobplate can protect against swords.

The Pathfinder ruleset is better than the 3.5 ruleset, which is better than the 2e ruleset. All of them are sub-optimal choices for CRPGs.

The setting or genre of a CRPG doesn't matter if the devs manage to do something interesting in the game.

[Bryy]

Realism in fantastical RPGs is stupid. If a wizard can say a few words and call down a comet, then boobplate can protect against swords.

Well, that's a very different issue than realism.

 

But I don't expect the creator of the Boob Thread to care for such intellectual debates.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Internal coherence is more important to a fantasy world than realism, seeing as realism isn't exactly an attribute that the fantastical can brag about.

 

Its like Frank Herbert's portrayal of Dune. It seems, realistic, or "authentic" which is probably a better word, because the world is described in great detail that is consistent throughout the story.

 

Think of the very annoying Game of Thrones fans. They all cry "the show is so realistic" but what they actually mean is that the since almost everyone is an **** to the same degree, with a few sympathetic characters to act as an exception, that almost inevitably die gruesomely the internal rules of the universe are upheld  "bad guys win, good guys die".

Therefore the pedestrian logic of the novels is upheld, which just conforms to the expectations the viewers have in the first place (of what they think the middle ages were like) and so they blow the twitter trumpets: OMG SO REALISTIC!

 

Besides that people are stupid and gullible this also tells us that the key ingredient of authenticity is neither sense nor realism but the appearance of it.

[Nonek]

Personally i've never seen any artform or entertainment break from reality at all, there is nothing purely alien in anything i've ever seen.

[Sarex]

Personally i've never seen any artform or entertainment break from reality at all, there is nothing purely alien in anything i've ever seen.

 

Watch Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Sarex

[Nonek]

Humans indulging in mind altering substances and hallucinating one assumes?

[Sarex]

Humans indulging in mind altering substances and hallucinating one assumes?

 

Pretty much, the whole movie is wtf, I came out with a headache from it.

[Humanoid]

Fantasy settings that think it's a good idea to assign obscure names to seasons, months, days and even times of days when in fact they're obviously just a reskinned version of our modern calendar. If you're going to be different, go the whole hog, or just don't bother. My immersion isn't going to be shattered if the ingame clock tells me it's Sunday.

[Volourn]

But, it makes sense for fantasy worlds to have thier own calenders since they're being named by people who live in those worlds and not in ours. So.. 'Monday/weds/etc.' or/jan/feb/' etc. may not fit into the world's lingo. Plus, many fantasy worlds have multiple calendars and the like.

[ManifestedISO]

Yeah, but then it's cool, like a new language class, the straight-forward parts. Then you get into it, and you're like, okay Turdas is real. Today is Turdas. But then it's not, it's Monday. 

[Humanoid]

It does, but as mentioned, if the writers want to do it properly then they should properly be unique, not have the same seven days in a week, twelve months a year just with different names. Some settings already do this of course, and while it's confusing, it at least it shows some thought has gone into it. Just renaming things is not creative or innovative in any way.

[Volourn]

But, which fantasy worlds do this? DND/FR doesn't. It actually has multiple calendars. I have played the M&M series recently, and they don't. I've even been retrying some of those SW's games and it has their own calendar as well. I don't think it's some sort of epidemic of fictional fantasy worlds just literally copying real world calendar and simpyl switching names for ****s and giggles. The changes they make usually make sense in terms of the world lore.

[Bartimaeus]

Realism in fantastical RPGs is stupid. If a wizard can say a few words and call down a comet, then boobplate can protect against swords.

 

For me, it's not so much a matter of "realism" as taste. ...But then again, while I like other implementations better, it doesn't bother me THAT much. So maybe I'm not the best example.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Bartimaeus

[Humanoid]

Well what brought that comment on was playing a bit of Skyrim lately, and it is exactly a duplicate of the Gregorian calendar, down to the number of days in each month. I'm not familiar with Tolkien or various DnD settings, so if it's not as prominent outside CRPGs, then great. That said, I'm going to say that settings that just round the number of days in a month to 30 and make no other alterations are just as guilty of being derivative as the ones that duplicate the calendar exactly.

 

EDIT: And looking up the FR calendar shows it as the typical 12 months a year, 30 days in a month, with the only difference being 5 spare days inserted. Eh, that's pointless to me. But at least the weeks are different.

 

I'd compare it to how mundane animals are presented in fantasy settings for example. Some choose to create fictional ones that roughly parallel those in real life in terms of role, i.e. a beast of burden, something for milk, something for wool. That's great. But I think most just use the real-world animal directly, horses, cows, sheep, whatever. And that's fine too, both approaches are valid. Having horse, cows and sheep be exactly the same but giving them random fantasy names on the other hand, ehhh, that'd just be dumb.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Humanoid

[TrashMan]

 

I love adventure games and there is an abundance of Adventure games that are passed down as RPG's without being it, but as long my curiosity is sated and I am entertained I am jolly and dandy, when I am forced into hopelessly stupid and retarded dialogue however I lose interest. Pretty much all games I play seems to be about love and hate and learning about how not-to-play, generally speaking.

 

• I don't think dialogue is an element of CRPG, because it's all about mood and you don't step into character by words, but by action and there is rarely any choice in action. I still remember this scene from Bloodlines where someone begs for his life.. There was even such a moment for the Bounty Hunter on Hutta in SWTOR, that really haunted me. That's how it should be all the time, but it's all just cannon-foddering and rarely any gloating..  
• I don't think BioWares ME series is CRPG at all, but an Action Adventure, which is emphasized by the 'gamble' nature of dialogue i.e. if you don't know what you are saying how can you deliberately pick anything? (Rhetorical). ME1 is more adventure and ME3 is much more action.. Dialogues are just for laughs and ME1 made me laugh a few times, while both ME2 and ME3 was pretty yawnsome, on the fun factor, in comparison.
• Fallout 2 and BG are the only CRPG games I've ever played and Fallout 2 fails in the end and upon every encounter with the enclave, because it overrides your play and ties you into a fixed role.
• Fixed roles, to save the universe or your tribe or something else that ties you into a different role makes RPG fail. If you are worse than the bad guys and your actually on the same side, then why are you always opposed.. because of storyline and fixed dialogue.. 

 

 

 

1) What? Dialogue is not an element of a CRPG? Is your character mute or something?

 

2) Limitations. You can't have true freedom in a CRPG. Heck, you can't even have it in a PnP one, since most DM's can't or won't generate endless content as you constantly avoid their plot hooks..

[IndiraLightfoot]

I don't like rolling half the assorted collection of dice out there!

d4s, d6s, d8s - they roll pretty much like crap. My favourite will always be d20. I even have a few metal ones that I still fondle from time to time.

d100s are literally balls and abominations to be scourged!

d12 is arguably the most beautiful die, especially transparent emerald ones.

 

When Guido Henkel suddenly plopped another KS function, where you somehow get to roll dice while you play a computer game, I got very excited.

Unfortunately, Deathfire crashed and burned.

[TrashMan]

Fantasy calendars? Who cares.

 

You can always assume the calendar is "translated" to something you can easily understand, just as language is.

After all, it's a fantasy setting. Why are they speaking english?

For "realism" sake, they should create a complete language (several of them)) and everyone should speak in it. That way if you want to talk to NPC you'll have to first learn it yourself.

 

There is smart realism to strive for, and then there is retarded realism.

A smart person knows the difference and seeks for realism in places where it matter and doesn't hinder the player (too much).

[Janmanden]

 

 

I love adventure games and there is an abundance of Adventure games that are passed down as RPG's without being it, but as long my curiosity is sated and I am entertained I am jolly and dandy, when I am forced into hopelessly stupid and retarded dialogue however I lose interest. Pretty much all games I play seems to be about love and hate and learning about how not-to-play, generally speaking.

 

• I don't think dialogue is an element of CRPG, because it's all about mood and you don't step into character by words, but by action and there is rarely any choice in action. I still remember this scene from Bloodlines where someone begs for his life.. There was even such a moment for the Bounty Hunter on Hutta in SWTOR, that really haunted me. That's how it should be all the time, but it's all just cannon-foddering and rarely any gloating..  
• I don't think BioWares ME series is CRPG at all, but an Action Adventure, which is emphasized by the 'gamble' nature of dialogue i.e. if you don't know what you are saying how can you deliberately pick anything? (Rhetorical). ME1 is more adventure and ME3 is much more action.. Dialogues are just for laughs and ME1 made me laugh a few times, while both ME2 and ME3 was pretty yawnsome, on the fun factor, in comparison.
• Fallout 2 and BG are the only CRPG games I've ever played and Fallout 2 fails in the end and upon every encounter with the enclave, because it overrides your play and ties you into a fixed role.
• Fixed roles, to save the universe or your tribe or something else that ties you into a different role makes RPG fail. If you are worse than the bad guys and your actually on the same side, then why are you always opposed.. because of storyline and fixed dialogue.. 

 

 

 

1) What? Dialogue is not an element of a CRPG? Is your character mute or something?

 

2) Limitations. You can't have true freedom in a CRPG. Heck, you can't even have it in a PnP one, since most DM's can't or won't generate endless content as you constantly avoid their plot hooks..

 

 

1. No, my character is not mute, but I think dialogue in most cases is an element of Adventure, about curiosity and entertainment and advancing the story, not about defining your character except in the rare cases where you sell one of your companions into slavery or you decide to double cross another party or something 'nice' like that. Otherwise it's just filler content and that's not RPG, but entertainment and that can be pretty good too, except when it happens without choice like in the awful ME3. Character defining moments is more like exit points in dialogue until you return to butter someone up to make them give you what they want and while you do that there are no options to 'pretend' to be nice. Sometimes lie options are included, but it's too rare. Acts of intimidation are neither good nor evil, but a means to an end that will define you. When forms of companion 'loyalty' suddenly enters the scene, the RPG is disrupted as well, because all of a sudden it becomes a game about maximizing their affection for you, because only then do they really become useful in one way or the other and that's just manipulation, which has no side. Not saying that Good and Evil is the only thing defining a RPG, but unfortunately it is in most cases. Romances are even worse in regards to RPG, because it's all a matter of seduction and it becomes a seduction game, and in pretty much all BioWare games you are forced into monogamous relationships, because they are all borgs with shared consciousness or something weird like that.. And then we got those games that cheat with dialogue and give you some keyword or short meaningless version that doesn't match what is being said.. That form of dialogue is totally off the RPG table, imo. But everyone is entitled to their own opinion of course. I just think this.

 

2. That's what they want you to believe, those skinny little grey dudes with big heads, big eyes and weird voices, that visit you at night and probe you in weird places that makes it hard to sit down at work the day after at the same time as your underpants feel a bit sticky...

 

Having a choice in regards to the game world itself in relation to what it adds to the table, that lets you pick a side and play it is quite possible and it happens, sometimes, but mostly it happens as an end result, as a summary in narrator mode. In KoTOR1 it happened a few times that I felt the game acknowledged my play and in the end I could pick side, but then it was kind of pointless. In KoTOR2 when I arrived at some planet and all the sith was forming a path of worship as I walked down to face the little bad mummy, that was cool.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Oh, and - Mass Effect 2 was more fun to play than anything Dragon Age.

 

Yes, DAO was like Baldur's Gate  2 and all, except it wasn't. It was boring and generic, and the combat sucked, I liked neither the characters, nor the story, nor the setting. I'd rather play the infamous ME2 minigame than DAO again

[Amentep]

As my first thread is nearing the end of its life-cycle, I decided most haughtily to start a new one, but this time I've expanded it a bit, since the at the end of that thread, an interesting influx of blasphemous opinion on RPG systems emerged, such as this list of opinions on the Wisdom attribute in D&D:

 

Wisdom is a horrible idea to have as an attribute, and clerics who worship gods whose sole goal is to bring chaos and destruction to the world should not have Wisdom scores of 18 (or above 6-ish, for that matter).

 

Maybe its just me, but if your diety of choice is offering you everlasting life in their realm if you burn your world down, I think it'd be wise from your perspective to do it.

 

That others might find it incredibly unwise lies conflict, but your own faith and understanding of that faith is going to drive you to do bad things.

 

Mind you my experience with D&D, very few of the evil dieties want utter destruction of everything; they want enough destruction to drive the survivors to them.