Update #71: The Heavy Hitters: Rogues and Rangers

[Lincoln]

 

Ich freue mich immer über Updates! Möchte auch gerne wissen wann ungefähr der early Access startet? So ... Mit den Post möchte ich gerne wissen ob deutschsprachige member unterwegs sind

 

My German is very dodgy and I haven't used it in six years but it is just good enough to understand your post   There will be a beta but it won't be a conventional "early access" build (they intend to have little or no story content in it). As for your actual question the devs haven't said anything about when it'll be available but the game is set for a release sometime in December this year so... sometime between now and then.

Unfortunately my english is pretty bad! Aber danke für die Antwort After all, one who understands me :D würde mich freuen wenn jemand auf deutsch Antworten würde!

[JFSOCC]

 

 

Ich freue mich immer über Updates! Möchte auch gerne wissen wann ungefähr der early Access startet? So ... Mit den Post möchte ich gerne wissen ob deutschsprachige member unterwegs sind

My German is very dodgy and I haven't used it in six years but it is just good enough to understand your post   There will be a beta but it won't be a conventional "early access" build (they intend to have little or no story content in it). As for your actual question the devs haven't said anything about when it'll be available but the game is set for a release sometime in December this year so... sometime between now and then.

Unfortunately my english is pretty bad! Aber danke für die Antwort After all, one who understands me :D würde mich freuen wenn jemand auf deutsch Antworten würde!

 

Ich glaube das Josh Sawyer eine bisschen Deutch spricht, vielleicht kann er sie beantworten.

 

Ok that's the best I can do, my German is very rusty.

[nPHYN1T3]

Well no multiclassing is one part but what about the rogue trap/mechanical skills in non-combat? Also unless I missed something has there been a list of pets you can have or is that still unannounced because I want kitteh! In fact I think we should be able to choose between cat and lolcat

[GerPronouncedGrr]

1) I would also like to see Rangers not having pets being an option. 

 

2) My vote for next update is Front Liners.

 

3) Josh, I love you so much, but could you please use the gender neutral pronoun 'they' in your documents instead of 'he or she', 'him or her', etc? Your current wording is awkward to read, probably annoying to write constantly, and non-inclusive, which is the real issue. I'm not trying to start an argument, no one needs to respond to this point except Josh. It's just a hot-button issue for me that I'm trying to point out in the least accusatory way possible.

 

Thanks for all the great work from the devs! I can't wait for the next update.

[Idara]

Great update I'd like Leaders Of The Band for the next one please.

[Stun]

FWIW I am implacably hostile to 4E and MMO type systems. I didn't back a game based on the original infinity engine series to play one.

 

Please dissuade me otherwise.

Dissuade you Nothing. You shouldn't be here.

 

 

If you don't like Sawyer and co's idea of game design, I wonder why you are here.

LOL Edited January 29, 2014 by Stun

[Monte Carlo]

FANBOIS OR BUST!

[Karkarov]

Uh couple things.

 

1: 4th edition D&D is VERY MMO like.  It took most of it's design and mechanics ideas from popular MMO's, it is a fact don't try to deny it.  Anyone who thinks it has more in common with 2nd Edition than it does say.... World of Warcraft is kidding themselves.  It steals from WoW just as blatantly as WoW stole from Everquest.

 

2: That isn't necessarily a bad thing for a single player based strategy RPG on the PC.  Is it bad for a table top RPG?  I won't go into that...

 

So the new image was cool, the grass particularly looks better and the trees are much improved as well.  Great work art and environment peoples!  Now just get us a high res version   As for the classes... Rogue seems a bit OP.  I don't understand enough about engagement yet but from what I see a Rogue NPC can break it at least 3 times in one fight, which makes me hope Fighters/Barbarians have something more exciting in their toolbag than what has been implied so far.  That said their damage abilities (still missing key details yes) seem clearly more powerful at a glance than that of the Cipher or Ranger.  I guess the idea being the Cipher has some defensive options and the Ranger is well... at range so as long as they aren't crazy with the animal companion they are normally safe.

 

Ranger wise... I am disappointed but not for the same reason as many others.  I have no problem with the way animal companions are handled health/stam wise, that they are there, or might not actually just be a giant wad of useless fur that serves no real point.  What does bother me is how unexciting the class sounds, seems to not have any clearly stand out "heavy hitting" ability despite being a "heavy hitter", and is blatantly ranged only with no apparent option for melee at all unless you count the pet.  Likewise the Rogue seems to be melee only as well and seems to be worthless with a bow.  It just scares me when I see things that seem to removes choice from classes.  Also I would change the ability about AOE's, unless I read it wrong it sounds like they get a bonus if "both" of them are in an aoe.  However the class design clearly implies your ranger is at ... range, and the pet is in melee.  So how often is that going to happen?  Shouldn't it be the other way around?

 

Also what happened to Paladins (and monks for that matter)?  What category do they fall in?  With their buffs I would figure they are front line or "band leaders".

 

Anyway I want to see front line next because if you aren't wearing a suit of full plate using a big sword and stabbing things in the face you are just a namby pamby anyway.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Karkarov

[hairyscotsman2]

I'm seeing a lot of people being unable to look beyond class titles here, it's a common problem. It's not the class title but how it feels in play. If you want a 'high damage' fighter feel, you're going to want to play a Rogue here.

 

They never promised us D&D. They promised us a game heavily influenced by the Infinity engine and that's what we're getting. They aren't even allowed to make it too like any edition of D&D!

 

I know people who don't like WoW at all and are excited by this game (not a fan of MMO's myself).

 

A sad truth is that D&D has never actually suited being a video game. I've hear it's part of the reason 4e was designed the way it was, so a good video game could hopefully expand the tabletop market, but Atar* killed that dead.

 

As someone who's switched to 13th Age due to 4e's flaws and really not liking Next, I'm really happy to see a game take a small part of the good ideas from all editions of D&D and build them into something new and innovative.

[Monte Carlo]

^ It's not the class titles. Couldn't give a hoot. It's the apparent lack of flexibility within the classes and the rigid archetypes they represent. What if you want a ranged rogue or a melee ranger? I imagine you could come up with a boatload of cool melee abilities for a character fighting in tandem with a tame beast.

 

I just think they are trying to be too clever, too obsessed with balance and clouded by logic. Ironic but true. Flaws and idiosyncrasies in gaming systems are all part of their charm. Most gamers are smart enough to realise what each class is broadly for before going against the grain, and most IE / old-skool fans don't want or need their hands holding.

 

Whacky playable races, strange languages and cool settings are all very well, but if I can't build a character that feels like it's mine because I made a decision that bends the archetype then I'm not playing my character. I'm playing Sawyer's idea of a good character.

[Moragauth]

Awesome, and I would like to see the Mob Rulers next! Hopefully Wizards will be powerful, even if not 'heavy hitters'.

 

Also, the "chanter" sounds intriguing.

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 "heavy hitting" ability despite being a "heavy hitter", and is blatantly ranged only with no apparent option for melee at all unless you count the pet.  Likewise the Rogue seems to be melee only as well and seems to be worthless with a bow.  It just scares me when I see things that seem to removes choice from classes. 

 

Also what happened to Paladins?  What catagory do they fall in?  With their buffs I would figure they are front line or "band leaders".

I was just about to post something on the word choice "heavy hitter"!

To me, rangers and rogues, no matter how you design them and what weapon you give them, they will simply never be heavy hitters.

This is a heavy hitter:

I think warriors and barbarians are the classes that should be the heavy hitters, heck, even paladins smiting away.

[Infinitron]

Josh, you've described how the Engwithan ruins were built with a magical mortar-like substance called adra, allowing them to retain physically impossible features like broken arches.

 

But that raises a question - if adra is so effective, how did they become "ruins" in the first place? Why are the arches all broken at the top? And why at the top specifically, why not someplace else?

[Infinitron]

Repeating something I posted in another forum:

 
9 times out of 10, when somebody complains about "classes being forced into extremely specific concepts", what he really means is "classes are being forced into extremely specific concepts that I don't like".

 

 

The classes are all specialized in different things - if they weren't, why even have classes? But altogether, Pillars of Eternity's classes are more flexible than D&D's, not less. You don't have armored muscle wizards in D&D.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Infinitron

[PrimeJunta]

Josh, you've described how the Engwithan ruins were built with a magical mortar-like substance called adra, allowing them to retain physically impossible features like broken arches.

 

But that raises a question - if adra is so effective, how did they become "ruins" in the first place? Why are the arches all broken at the top? And why at the top specifically, why not someplace else?

 

I wonder if someone broke them on purpose and carted off most of the fallen-off bits, e.g. to build something else. I think they'd end up looking much like that if you had super-sticky magic mortar.

 

It's a popular way to make ruins in any case. 

[Stun]

They promised us a game heavily influenced by the Infinity engine and that's what we're getting.

Oh indeed. Rogues as heavy hitters, Stamina damage; per-encounter talents; No multi-classing; no dual-classing. Rangers with vital animal companions, etc.

 

Sure sounds like the IE games to me!

Edited January 29, 2014 by Stun

[Spike Spiegel 28]

Great update. Love how much the Animal Companion can do and how its tied to the Ranger. And usually the thief/rogue like classes do not interest me at all but this version of a Rogue sounds way more interesting than any other version of a Rogue I seen or played sofar. As for whats next my choice would be the Mob Rulers next and after that the Leaders of the Band.

[Monte Carlo]

Repeating something I posted in another forum:

 

9 times out of 10, when somebody complains about "classes being forced into extremely specific concepts", what he really means is "classes are being forced into extremely specific concepts that I don't like".

 

 

The classes are all specialized in different things - if they weren't, why even have classes? But altogether, Pillars of Eternity's classes are more flexible than D&D's, not less. You don't have armored muscle wizards in D&D.

 

Er, what's wrong with not liking stuff?

[Stun]

You don't have armored muscle wizards in D&D.

Wanna bet?

[Karkarov]

I think warriors and barbarians are the classes that should be the heavy hitters, heck, even paladins smiting away.

I will admit I am a little scared my dream of a tanky and dangerous two hand sword wielding plate wearing monster may not be possible in this game.  Dragon Age Origins will forever have my gratitude for actually letting me pull it off, the IE games less so because you couldn't really be "tanky" in those games in the traditional sense.

 

We will see.  Funny thing is in Guild Wars 2 I played a guy in poofy pants who duel wielded ;\  They were still swords though!

[IndiraLightfoot]

 Pillars of Eternity's classes are more flexible than D&D's, not less. You don't have armored muscle wizards in D&D.

Just a little thing, but how do you know this when we know so precious little about them, while D&D is running through our veins?

So far, they seem to be pretty inflexible and cookie-cutter-like ( I hope I'm absolutely wrong).

[Infinitron]

 

They promised us a game heavily influenced by the Infinity engine and that's what we're getting.

Oh indeed. Rogues as heavy hitters, Stamina damage; per-encounter talents; No multi-classing; no dual-classing. Rangers with vital animal companions, etc.

 

Sure sounds like the IE games to me!

 

 

If I had to pick one element in this game that was un-IE-like, it would be the sheer existence of so many active abilities and talents. There was nothing like that in the IE games, except for spellcasters of course. Compared with that, all that other stuff you mentioned is just surface detail.

 

Thing is, you won't find many people willing to agree that, all other things being equal, depriving classes of abilities to use is a good thing, so you probably won't go far complaining about it.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Infinitron

[ellron]

nice update.

 

My vote for the Mob Rulers. I am most excited about the druid.

[Monte Carlo]

I think in retrospect the lack of multi-classing will be seen as a mistake. Not least because, as others have said, there are so few JNPCs to choose from. I couldn't care less about that, am happy to have adventurer's hall sock puppets, but I know a lot of people want a great blend of classes / skills and a deep interactive NPC group.

 

Edit: And we've seen time and time again a feature that developers insist must go in and then have to change later. look at Diablo 3, for example.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Monte Carlo

[IndiraLightfoot]

Incoming updates:

Chanters - the Silent Killers

Paladins - the Meticulous Tinkerers

Monks - the Careless Scoundrels