Kingdom Come: Deliverance Kickstarter

[alanschu]

Isn't it funny how gender issues completely overshadow any other problems associated with the time period?

Any realistic depiction of a medieval man or woman must come with a set of beliefs and behaviors that modern audience will find repulsive.

That's why the end result of historical realism in games is usually something akin to Assassins Creed.

Eh, Game of Thrones is super popular. I wouldn't be surprised if the fact that the player is an active participant influences whether or not this type of thing is more important.

 

I typically play a variation of a self-insert when I have the ability to create a custom character. Fortunately I have a lot of opportunities. If someone sees a game that is otherwise interesting, but has some features missing (whatever those features may be) that they find important, it's their prerogative to share that request. I'm not sure it is any different than asking for a different feature, barring maybe that it comes up a lot and some people find that annoying.

 

 

The unfortunate implication is that a developer like this, who's promised cross-platform support from the start, might end up with less money because they included it by default instead of making it a stretch goal.

In general I'm actually not a fan of specific stretch goals. It's hard to quantify this because someone may or may not have contributed because of the cross-platform support out of the gate.

 

My problem with specific stretch goals is that it comes across as somewhat binding, and I have concerns that it could handcuff development to include a feature that ultimately not be good for the game, but wasn't known until later in development. Chasing rabbit holes is always a huge risk.

 

It's a double edged sword though, because I definitely feel that stretch goals help increase cash flow.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Main character is a poor but naturally gifted yokel who by circumstance starts to trek around, kicks everyone's ass wherever he goes and eventually gains the attention of the high nobility and becomes a knight.

 

It's a copy paste of Flemish book "John the Fearless" which is set in 15th century Duchy of Burgundy.

 

In the end, it's nothing but wish fulfillment and so far removed from reality that main character might as well be female.

This is what I meant with "fantasy", as in not real, as in a game. We are playing dolls here, folks! Heh, we're not time-traveling back to some real location in medieval times. Warhorse Studios is very clear about this. They'll avoid too much gore, too much life chores, etc, in order to make a fun and enjoyable game that avoids the Tolkienesque themes for their interpretation of a medieval context. This last bit is absolutely central.

 

I find it interesting that debates like these tend to immediately turn to discussions about soldiers and command and other military-related things. The game description tells you straight up you can be a villainous thief (or hell, villainous bard - not sure how that works, be a rock 'n' roll star?). And that's almost certainly what I'll be playing regardless of what gender options are made available in the final product.

 

If it's a good game, then playing it this way ought to be a completely different experience to those players who choose to have their characters enlist in the army. About as big, if not moreso, than, oh, being a woman. In either case it's making more-or-less a whole second game in the same shell.

 

I might find myself supporting an inverse stretch goal here. At 1 million, remove the feature to be anything but one 'class', and tell a nice focused, character-driven story like The Witcher. I'm somewhat afraid the supposed choice of path otherwise will merely be showing different icons on your hotbar, and that as a thief they'll still be expecting you to, in the words of their blurb, "lead the charge in enormous, open field battles and sieges." Now *that* would be a blow against realism.

Spot on, and the implications of this is that realism will not be achieved, because there is none to be achieved. It's impossible. I'm sorry, it's a pipe dream.

 

 

The problem comes with, as far I'm concerned, how accurate our depictions of history actually are.

 

 

Zoraptor made an interesting post earlier, although he met at it with a more cautious perspective, with respect to "women in the time were likely dressed as men." I am curious if, given the circumstances, if "you're a woman but you spend a fair bit of time needing to pretend to be a man" would be sufficient.

 

It'd mitigate the concerns that Keyrock put forth, regarding divergent content. Must the content be significantly different? Or is it a convenient because some people have their impression on how the more minute details of history and anything that doesn't fall in line with those beliefs puts people on the defensive.

 

I mean, for example, I would suspect that a lot of people would assume that women in medieval Islam were at best treated no better than a lot of Muslim states now, and possibly even worse. Though according to Labour in the Medieval Islamic World denotes that women were frequently in what we consider masculine jobs (construction, guild presidents), and were the first to actually have women physicians. (12th Century, although also surgeons by the 15th century) I think there's also a belief that women equality has tended to monotonically increase with time, when the Industrial Revolution saw women's rights increasingly marginalized.

 

No, I'm not saying women in the 10th-15th Century were seen as equals to men, but I wouldn't be surprised if assumptions and biases predispose many of us to overestimate (I know I used to be a much more hardliner on this topic as well).

 

This is a great and well-informed post. Despite historical documents being something that those in power usually wrote, and history itself is heavy laden by the power structures that be, so it's basically biased from its conception, there's a wealth of evidence of women having all sorts of employment during medieval times. It of course varied from land to land, and from law to law. But just as there were no special social phase of childhood back then, the way we perceive the female gender (and the male gender as well) has little to do with how it worked and was expressed in those days. The role one had seem to have been very important, trumping other aspects. If women were working as guards and soldiers, they were typically dressed like that and adapted their language and behaviour as much as that social role required. So, indeed, it's not as far stretched as it may seem to simply have the game play the way it does, but with a protagonist in a woman's body, all the rest being the same, even the "he", "his" and "him". Modding is in. So this will probably be one of the early mods, to remesh the pc slightly, and then those that wish to try it out, do, Other don't have to (I always wonder why they care so much what others do in a game.) 

Edited January 31, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Humanoid]

Stretch goals are always going to be a weird thing when you only have one pot of money that all pledges come into. Unless the particular goal costs $1 or less to fulfil ($1 being the minimum pledge size), then you're necessarily taking away from main budget to fund that stretch goal. e.g. you've raised $99, that's $99 to use for the main feature. Someone pledges $1, now you've hit a stretch goal that costs $20 to implement and now you've only got $80 instead of $99 to implement the core feature. But then, how much would it have been if you hadn't advertised that stretch goal in the first place? Would you have raised $90 total and come out ahead, or $70 and so lose out? And when I say 'lose out' or 'come out ahead', it's not just the developers who feel the result, but people who were uninterested in that particular goal.

 

The requirement to solve that would obviously be to have multiple pots and have them collect in parallel. But it's not really a realistic suggestion. For one, the only way to do it would be to run concurrent Kickstarter campaigns (which is probably against their rules) or run your own campaign independent of Kickstarter (which even the biggest names have struggled to launch initially). And moreover you'd probably end up with less money as a result of backer confusion anyway.

 

 

Anyway, I'm not sure where I'm going here. But I do know when the PE Kickstarter was running, I was like "please please people stop posting comments onto the KS project page so they won't keep having to allocate more budget to making a dungeon that I'll never bother tackling." It's a selfish desire of course, but yeah, stretch goals do that.

[Jarmo]

Guys I have a good idea, why don't they make the game with a female only protagonist who can be a bard or outlaw, or any other historically accurate profession? 

 

That'd be something new and I'd definitely want to see a game like that.

It'd be controversial and would most likely end up banned from most stores and steam.

 

 

 

The problem with allowing gender choice in a historically accurate period piece of a game is all the extra development that this would entail.  . 

 

Normally that would be a valid point accept for the fact that with stretch goals allowing the budget to reach double the original tier to allow some form of female representation I don't think that is applicable. In other words they have effectively raised enough money to create 2 games based on the original target, I fail to see how they can't incorporate a decent female footprint  if the issue is just about resourcing?

 

 

The thing with this is, the kickstarter in case of Deliverance is not going to raise the cash for the budget, it's to convince the financer.

Even if they come up with 2 millions, it'd be barely enough to cover the development, barely.

 

For myself, if the game attempts to be historically accurate, as much as a game can be, there'll be faults anyway,

it simply wont do to just play the same game with a female character. "It's a game" is no excuse at all.

[Chilloutman]

I am out of this discussion for sake of my mental state. Just want to thanks to few people who actualy understand what I was trying to say or stand on common side. I actually thought I would be completely alone in this. For rest of you, good luck in your pink lifes and dont be offended by me too much. I didnt ment to start some flamewar. Peace

[BruceVC]

I am out of this discussion for sake of my mental state. Just want to thanks to few people who actualy understand what I was trying to say or stand on common side. I actually thought I would be completely alone in this. For rest of you, good luck in your pink lifes and dont be offended by me too much. I didnt ment to start some flamewar. Peace

 

Sorry if I misunderstood you, no hard feelings

[IndiraLightfoot]

I am out of this discussion for sake of my mental state. Just want to thanks to few people who actualy understand what I was trying to say or stand on common side. I actually thought I would be completely alone in this. For rest of you, good luck in your pink lifes and dont be offended by me too much. I didnt ment to start some flamewar. Peace

 

I'm sorry too, and no hard feelings here either.

Tigranes was at least right about my coming across as a bit disrespectful to you, I just wanted to stand up for the rights and game variety I believe in (sometimes too strongly, it seems).

[Bryy]

For rest of you, good luck in your pink lifes

 

Come on, man. At least try to be civil.

[C2B]

The only problem I could see is setting a game during that time period and then pretending females weren't treated that differently is kind of spitting in the face of the whole fight for equality that happened in the centuries since then.

 

Downplaying the horrors of history can be offensive in itself.

 

It's certainly a complicated/interesting question.

Edited January 31, 2014 by C2B

[Malcador]

 

So you don't gamble on projects with male only protagonists ?

 

That's entirely not what I said.

 

If a game has a stretch goal for, say, other platforms, I'll contribute more.

 

I never said it was, hence the question. Just that to be on the fence and all it took was them giving an option for a female PC does indicate that the presence of one is fairly important to you.

 

Funny enough Malc but I've supported numerous KS that are your typical party based RPG where there are male and female characters

 

But in most cases I won't support a KS that doesn't have some sort of female representation or is dismissive of social issues, for example a game that has homophobia or racist undertones.

 

The good news is these games nowadays are few and far between as most publishing and development companies are aware of what many people expect or don't think is applicable. You probably think this is an extreme view but that's my stance on what games I'm prepared to support. Of course there are games where my view isn't relevant like RTS

Was curious how many of these racist, homophobic games you come across. Then again sometimes that is a matter of not looking hard enough and counting percentages of races/sexes it seems. But is not much these days for sure with the outrage machine running on social media, for sure.

[pmp10]

But just as there were no special social phase of childhood back then

Yes there was.

I don't want to get into the gender nonsense as denial runs too deep here but children were certainly treated differently according to law.

Just keep in mind that coming of age would take place early in teenage years.

[BruceVC]

 

 

So you don't gamble on projects with male only protagonists ?

 

That's entirely not what I said.

 

If a game has a stretch goal for, say, other platforms, I'll contribute more.

 

I never said it was, hence the question. Just that to be on the fence and all it took was them giving an option for a female PC does indicate that the presence of one is fairly important to you.

 

Funny enough Malc but I've supported numerous KS that are your typical party based RPG where there are male and female characters

 

But in most cases I won't support a KS that doesn't have some sort of female representation or is dismissive of social issues, for example a game that has homophobia or racist undertones.

 

The good news is these games nowadays are few and far between as most publishing and development companies are aware of what many people expect or don't think is applicable. You probably think this is an extreme view but that's my stance on what games I'm prepared to support. Of course there are games where my view isn't relevant like RTS

Was curious how many of these racist, homophobic games you come across. Then again sometimes that is a matter of not looking hard enough and counting percentages of races/sexes it seems. But is not much these days for sure with the outrage machine running on social media, for sure.

 

 

 you make me a laugh Malc with your logic which in this case is accurate

 

You right, I can't recall any games that I specifically haven't bought because they are homophobic or racist, I may just have forgotten. But that's a good thing isn't it as clearly companies are realizing what is not acceptable as content...so this is a reason to be happy

[ShadySands]

I cancelled my pledge but I'll keep an eye out for when/if it gets released and may pick it up then depending on reviews

[BruceVC]

I cancelled my pledge but I'll keep an eye out for when/if it gets released and may pick it up then depending on reviews

 

Why did you cancel your pledge if you don't mind me asking? Was it because there isn't the option to play a female from the beginning ?

[Oner]

Guys I have a good idea, why don't they make the game with a female only protagonist who can be a bard or outlaw, or any other historically accurate profession? Then they make a stretch goal of 2-3 million to allow us to play as a male. This way we can see if the community wants proper gender representation. Now before you say " that won't work" think about all the social issues like discrimination that the female character will face apart from all the trials and tribulations that would be normal in a medieval setting

 

Who is with me !!!!

I'm totally fine with playing female characters. ^^

[ShadySands]

 

I cancelled my pledge but I'll keep an eye out for when/if it gets released and may pick it up then depending on reviews

 

Why did you cancel your pledge if you don't mind me asking? Was it because there isn't the option to play a female from the beginning ?

 

 

I'm mostly skeptical about multi-platform support in such an ambitious Kickstarter game

 

...and lack of elves

 

If it turns out good then I will pick it up

[BruceVC]

 

 

I cancelled my pledge but I'll keep an eye out for when/if it gets released and may pick it up then depending on reviews

 

Why did you cancel your pledge if you don't mind me asking? Was it because there isn't the option to play a female from the beginning ?

 

 

I'm mostly skeptical about multi-platform support in such an ambitious Kickstarter game

 

...and lack of elves

 

If it turns out good then I will pick it up

 

 

"and lack of elves" ... 

[Zoraptor]

Everyone knows that dwarves are the must have addition if you want to maximise pledges.

[Bryy]

double post

Edited February 1, 2014 by Bryy

[Bryy]

 Just that to be on the fence and all it took was them giving an option for a female PC does indicate that the presence of one is fairly important to you.

 

Inclusion is important to me. Devs making as much money as possible (especially post-KS income) is important to me.

Edited February 1, 2014 by Bryy

[LordCrash]

Obsidian tweeted today:

 

 

Obsidian@Obsidian
Obsidian just backed Kingdom Come: Deliverance on @Kickstarterhttp://kck.st/1hhYNvn

 

Nice job, Obsidian!

 

And for the ones who want a realistic display of medieval times I can only say that the three major developers of the games are real history fanatics who know their stuff. They've already done immense research on the topic and they will continue to do so, no worry. But keep in mind, that it is still a game and therefore TOO MUCH realism isn't always the best way. The game should still be fun and entertaining which is actually more important than 100% historical correctness imo.

Edited February 1, 2014 by LordCrash

[Keyrock]

Obsidian tweeted today:

 

 

Obsidian@Obsidian

Obsidian just backed Kingdom Come: Deliverance on @Kickstarterhttp://kck.st/1hhYNvn

 

Nice job, Obsidian!

 

And for the ones who want a realistic display of medieval times I can only say that the three major developers of the games are real history fanatics who know their stuff. They've already done immense research on the topic and they will continue to do so, no worry. But keep in mind, that it is still a game and therefore TOO MUCH realism isn't always the best way. The game should still be fun and entertaining which is actually more important than 100% historical correctness imo.

Agreed.  Realism and accuracy are great so long as they don't detract from the fun of the game.

[Wrath of Dagon]

If we're looking it from a historic perspective, your concern could actually be valid (although I'll admit I am ignorant to the prevalence of Chinese people in Europe, and would need to do some research).

 

Though I have a feeling that that may not actually be the intention of your post. If you'd like, we could evolve this discussion into a breakdown of the value and contributions of women in medieval times and contrast them with minorities like a black or Chinese person, with the baseline of typical white males to be compared against.

Women did make a tremendous contribution in Medieval times, and if this was a weaving or a cooking simulator (or even a Countess or Queen simulator), I'd be all for including a woman as a PC. But as far as actually being involved in combat, that was an extraordinary event, and would have to be explained in game how it came to be (something most people really don't care about, I mean you could make a game about a woman warrior, but it's not this game, nor am I convinced such a game would garner much support, except from those trying to make an ideological point.)

[Malcador]

Agreed.  Realism and accuracy are great so long as they don't detract from the fun of the game.

Bah, people like you killed Rainbow Six!

 

Inclusion is important to me. Devs making as much money as possible (especially post-KS income) is important to me.

Heh, I am correct then. Not too sure on it actually affecting their income that much, myself.

[Humanoid]

Related to the historical accuracy thing, but actually as much as well due to genuine historic curiosity: were wandering bards an actual thing, as in, a legitimate profession? I mean obviously there's Shakespeare the bard, but he'd probably make a poor adventurer.