Hidden Experience

[Mr. Magniloquent]

In reading through the achievements thread, it occured to me that it might be interesting for all experience values to be hidden. While it is convienient to know how much experience an action yielded, or how much experience total is held; the hiding of these values could serve to make a player's choice less "synthetic". Players may find themselves more prone to act in manners that suit their style and character, rather than reloading missions with the motivation of yoking the most XP. That being said, a consequence of having experience values hidden might compel a player to become a completionist for fear of missing a significiant portion of experience.

 

Ultimately though, I don't think this would be a terrible risk as (I hope) that the game and its respective quests are completable in multiple mutually exclusive ways (See: degenerative game-play, save scumming). To me, the idea of having experience values excluded from my decision making or knowledge base has a similar appeal to playing in Ironman (no-reload) modes. What do you guys think?

 

 

[neo6874]

Yeah, run it like a P&P game... you have your "game night" where you get into two "big" fights, four "easy" fights, save the mayor's daughter, and get safely back to town.

 

You get 800 XP from the fights (unless ECL is either greater than or less than the CR of the encounters, in which case you get slightly more or less XP); 450 XP from saving the brat; and unknowingly miss out on 250 XP for killing the bandit leader instead of reasoning with him to let her go.

Edited January 7, 2014 by neo6874

[Prometheus]

I don't like systems that try to hide numbers from me.

The problem is that one option is always better as another option, you don't solve this problem with hiding numbers, you solve it with making most/all options have advantages and disadvantages. If you just hide the numbers from the player it doesn't change that all players should take the best option.

[PrimeJunta]

Interesting idea. I wouldn't say no to a "hide ALL the numbers" mode. That would focus attention on in-game rather than metagame matters. It would be an interesting experience to play the game that way, for sure.

 

Not so sure I'd like it more than my default "show ALL the numbers" preference, but I'd certainly give it a spin.

[Osvir]

I like it, could work quite well as a checkbox option:

 

"Show/Hide all experience feedback" or something. I'd probably take it for a spin on hardcore.

[neo6874]

I don't mind seeing some/all of the XP notifications -- but since they're doing it as "objective based" rather than "combat based" XP, it's easier to "hide".

 

I wasn't as clear as I intended to be in the last post.

 

What I mean is -> turn in the quest to save the mayor's daughter, you get 1250 XP (hooray!).

 

The game (internally) keeps track of things:

 

 - Fights (overall) = 1000 XP 

 - Save the Girl = 250 XP

 - Diplomacy/Intimidate/Bluff/(the other one I'm missing) the bandit leader to save her = +250 XP

 - other secret stuff = 500 XP

 

When you turn in the quest (successfully) you will MINIMALLY get 1250 XP (all the fights and saving the girl). If you do the secret stuff and the "conversation win", you can get another 750 XP (or something between +250 and +750 depending on how many secrets there are, and their XP value).

 

The "GM" just tells you "The party gains 1250 XP each" when you turn in the quest - but not that the 5 fights were each 5000 XP, and that the girl was 250, and that you missed 250 for the convo win, and that you missed 500 for ~secrets~. 

[JFSOCC]

With expert mode denying you plenty of feedback, it'd be interesting if XP gain is also hidden. (and a toggable feature)

 

I do think that, at least for a first playthrough, it would be nice to not realise what you are missing out on or gaining. It feels more like your personal story.

 

I can figure out values on the next playthrough

[Lephys]

With all the other options they're already offering, that would be a most interesting addition. You couldn't even show a bar, or "experience to next level" meter or anything, though, with that option on, or it'd just be a simple matter of doing the math to still know which choice game more XP, etc.

 

*shrug*. I just think that'd be pretty interesting. I mean, ideally you don't have any "sweet talk this person and you get 50 XP, but kill them and you get 7,000" situations, to put it overly simply, BUT... I wouldn't even be worried about ANY discrepancies at all if I didn't even know any better. Just make your choices, and go. As long as you still got plenty of XP to level up appropriately and not be like 7 levels behind the curve when you reach the end of the game, you'd be none the wiser, and could simply enjoy your decisions for their own sake, without the distraction of considering the numbers.

 

It'd be like blinders! 8D. Keep your eye on the track.

[milczyciel]

I like numbers. Can't help it because that's how the oryginal Fallout raised me.

{and now to derail a topic}

But because of it's influence I can think about one instance where I'd like the numbers to be hidden from me (and possibly messed up a little): all those morality, reputation and loyalty counters, which are in far to many games way to evident (or apparent if you wish) for me. 

...I'm looking at you DA:O, but also F:NV karma popups

Then again I never really though about it and therefore can't say how much "reward driven" were my in game decisions all this time.

 

Hmm...

it would be quite interesting to play a game, where the only knowable gain are money and loot, and to some extent fame, ranks, orders of merit etc

I'm sure it's too late for PE for that, but who knows? The premise made me wonder.

[anameforobsidian]

Yeah, run it like a P&P game... you have your "game night" where you get into two "big" fights, four "easy" fights, save the mayor's daughter, and get safely back to town.

 

You get 800 XP from the fights (unless ECL is either greater than or less than the CR of the encounters, in which case you get slightly more or less XP); 450 XP from saving the brat; and unknowingly miss out on 250 XP for killing the bandit leader instead of reasoning with him to let her go.

They've already said previously that you only get experience for accomplishing objectives, not for all fights (however, some fights are objectives).

[neo6874]

 

Yeah, run it like a P&P game... you have your "game night" where you get into two "big" fights, four "easy" fights, save the mayor's daughter, and get safely back to town.

 

You get 800 XP from the fights (unless ECL is either greater than or less than the CR of the encounters, in which case you get slightly more or less XP); 450 XP from saving the brat; and unknowingly miss out on 250 XP for killing the bandit leader instead of reasoning with him to let her go.

They've already said previously that you only get experience for accomplishing objectives, not for all fights (however, some fights are objectives).

 

My example was only supposed to read off like the "recap" of a D&D gaming session (our DM gives us the XP at the end of the night). I understand that PoE doesn't give XP per kill.

 

The DM (game) knows this:

- 3 fights, combined total of 800 XP per L9 character

- Saved the brat - 400 XP per character

- Killed the bandit leader - "missed" 250 XP

 

Party:

Lephys - L8 Bard

me - L9 Wizard

you - L10 Fighter

JFSOCC - L9 Cleric

(someone) - L9 Rogue

 

Party gets told:

- Lephys, you get 1300 XP tonight because you're ECL 8 still.

- neo, JFSOCC, and [whoever]; you all get 1200 XP because you're L9

- aname, you get 1100 XP because you're L10

 

edit -- Now, I know that in this breakdown you're still getting XP for the fights -- but not in the 'normal' cRPG way of rewarding it as "killed bugbear, party gets 100XP ... killed another one, +100 XP ... ". Really, I'm just listing it as something that the DM/game is tracking because the DM/game needs to -- suppose "encounter" would be a better word than "fight", since an encounter doesn't necessarily mean "combat".

Edited January 9, 2014 by neo6874

[sesobebo]

I don't like systems that try to hide numbers from me.

The problem is that one option is always better as another option, you don't solve this problem with hiding numbers, you solve it with making most/all options have advantages and disadvantages. If you just hide the numbers from the player it doesn't change that all players should take the best option.

 

i don't like systems that try to hide important numbers from me.

as the quest's xp reward number is neither tactically nor strategically important, i don't care if it's omited or not.

 

and, again - as with all the other on/off things - making it optional would be the best way to go.

[Lephys]

i don't like systems that try to hide important numbers from me.

as the quest's xp reward number is neither tactically nor strategically important, i don't care if it's omited or not.

Agreed.

 

To anyone thinking that's crazy, really stop and think for a moment.

 

Imagine playing any RPG ever, but simply not being told how much XP you get for things, but still GETTING that XP (and appropriate amounts of it, etc.) and being told when you level. What would that really affect?

 

Don't get me wrong. I get wanting to know. You're not crazy just 'cause you'd like to know that stuff. But, it wouldn't really make your gameplay experience any different.

 

As Neo referenced a D&D example, in D&D, you don't get notified of how much XP something was worth when you kill it. But, you know that, if it was tough and troublesome, it was probably a lot more than if it was a bunny. You're not going to run around killing bunnies all day long, and go "OH NO! I have no way of knowing which tasks will grant me lots of experience, and which ones won't!" If you go into a town, and do a bunch of stuff that results in the completely fixing of all the town's problems in one fell swoop, that probably got you a lot of experience. You're not going to think that picking some weeds for some guy is going to get you a whole level's worth, while spending 5 hours uncovering an elaborate, traitorous plot to overthrow the current king is going to give you 10XP.

 

Again, optional is probably best, 'cause there's not any particular reason such concealment should be FORCED on anyone. But, it is a perfectly feasible option, and pretty interesting, really. D&D's the only thing I can think of that doesn't tell you XP values on-the-fly, so I'd be interested in playing a game that allows me to hide them like that, if only to see how it compares.

[JFSOCC]

My example was only supposed to read off like the "recap" of a D&D gaming session (our DM gives us the XP at the end of the night). I understand that PoE doesn't give XP per kill.

 

The DM (game) knows this:

- 3 fights, combined total of 800 XP per L9 character

- Saved the brat - 400 XP per character

- Killed the bandit leader - "missed" 250 XP

 

Party:

Lephys - L8 Bard

me - L9 Wizard

you - L10 Fighter

JFSOCC - L9 Cleric

(someone) - L9 Rogue

 

Party gets told:

- Lephys, you get 1300 XP tonight because you're ECL 8 still.

- neo, JFSOCC, and [whoever]; you all get 1200 XP because you're L9

- aname, you get 1100 XP because you're L10

 

edit -- Now, I know that in this breakdown you're still getting XP for the fights -- but not in the 'normal' cRPG way of rewarding it as "killed bugbear, party gets 100XP ... killed another one, +100 XP ... ". Really, I'm just listing it as something that the DM/game is tracking because the DM/game needs to -- suppose "encounter" would be a better word than "fight", since an encounter doesn't necessarily mean "combat".

No I'm the rogue

 

Yeah, holding off on the XP until your gaming session is done means you get to level up only between quests, which I think it probably better pacing, because it denies you access to new abilities before the quest is done, and allows you to take your time carefully levelling your character.

[Hassat Hunter]

I would agree with this as an option, one I probably would use (atleast my first game). Agreed it should also hide values like "XP to next level up" on a character sheet, or it becomes quite pointless (just compare post-and-pre).

 

But yeah, many people would want it visible, so it shouldn't be standard for expert.

Nice suggestion!

[rjshae]

I'm not really seeing the benefit of this. It's an option that most people would probably ignore, which means it would have low development priority.

[Jobby]

Don't see the purpose personally but I'm not fussed either way, however it does annoy me when the biggest exp gain is almost always the "good" option, I hope this isn't the case

[jamoecw]

the problem with this is that they are changing the typical reward structure already.  you don't go executing every defenseless monster you see, and the random animals too just in case they give something useful.  if they stuck to the typical method where you get exp for killing monsters, and generally the harder to monster to kill the more you got (though maybe you get more for side quests than plot quests or less, you don't know), then it would be fine to not have it displayed anywhere (and then you'd go to the wiki or game faq or whatever to find out what is the optimal path), as long as it is similar exp in the end.

 

but they aren't doing that, they are changing how they are rewarding us, so it might not be intuitive everytime.  it also won't fix any bad habits that they purposefully worked on making unnecessary.  think of it like someone depositing money into your account, without you being able to know when they do so, nor being able to know how much is in your account.  people would do stuff they normally do to earn money, even if they don't like it, in order to earn money, which wouldn't earn them money because no one is telling them it doesn't work like that anymore.

 

if the government managed to change the economy so that no one got paid for doing jobs they hate, and strippers tipped the patrons, but one got to know when they were getting paid, or how much they have been paid, and their bills and such get paid automatically when they have enough money, those that found that they got paid by strippers and not for working will keep quiet thinking they found an exploit in the system, and most people will get kicked out of their homes and starve while working themselves to the bone.  it would be horrible, and everyone will want the economy returned back to the way it was, when they were forced to do things they didn't want to do, and lost all their money to strippers.

[sesobebo]

the problem with this is that they are changing the typical reward structure already.  you don't go executing every defenseless monster you see, and the random animals too just in case they give something useful.  if they stuck to the typical method where you get exp for killing monsters, and generally the harder to monster to kill the more you got (though maybe you get more for side quests than plot quests or less, you don't know), then it would be fine to not have it displayed anywhere (and then you'd go to the wiki or game faq or whatever to find out what is the optimal path), as long as it is similar exp in the end.

 

but they aren't doing that, they are changing how they are rewarding us, so it might not be intuitive everytime.  it also won't fix any bad habits that they purposefully worked on making unnecessary.  think of it like someone depositing money into your account, without you being able to know when they do so, nor being able to know how much is in your account.  people would do stuff they normally do to earn money, even if they don't like it, in order to earn money, which wouldn't earn them money because no one is telling them it doesn't work like that anymore.

 

if the government managed to change the economy so that no one got paid for doing jobs they hate, and strippers tipped the patrons, but one got to know when they were getting paid, or how much they have been paid, and their bills and such get paid automatically when they have enough money, those that found that they got paid by strippers and not for working will keep quiet thinking they found an exploit in the system, and most people will get kicked out of their homes and starve while working themselves to the bone.  it would be horrible, and everyone will want the economy returned back to the way it was, when they were forced to do things they didn't want to do, and lost all their money to strippers.

 

 

wat.

 

 

 

here's a game, if Your only motivation for playing games is the length of Your xp number.

[Lephys]

but they aren't doing that, they are changing how they are rewarding us, so it might not be intuitive everytime.  it also won't fix any bad habits that they purposefully worked on making unnecessary.  think of it like someone depositing money into your account, without you being able to know when they do so, nor being able to know how much is in your account.  people would do stuff they normally do to earn money, even if they don't like it, in order to earn money, which wouldn't earn them money because no one is telling them it doesn't work like that anymore.

It doesn't matter what approach they use, though. In the former approach (every kill gives XP), just think of a kill as a tiny, frequent objective. Boom. There's an objective, so you know there's going to be XP to be had. Just, before, the objective won't always be there for "Look, there's a live thing, END ITS LIFE!". I don't see how that's in any way going to affect the balance of XP for combats that ARE objectives, in this approach. "Objective -- dispatch the 17 uber-ogres" isn't going to give you 15 XP, while "step on that rat!" gives you 1,000,000. Or, rather, it could just as easily do so as killing a rat in a game using the former approach could give you 1,000,000 XP while killing 17 uber-ogres could give you 15.

 

Whether it's per-kill or not doesn't really matter. You still have to come up with feasible XP values. Now, the dev team could fail to do that, but that's true no matter the approach.

 

Also, while I get where you're going with the money example, it's not really the same thing. You don't ever need to spend experience (or even get to) until you've gained a level. Once you gain a level, you get a certain amount of allocatable points to spend, and you're told how many of those you have.

 

Think of it as a trip. If you're headed to the Eastern City of Bleen, and it's 100 miles away, then knowing it's 100 miles away doesn't change the fact that it's 100 miles away. The more steps you take, the closer you'll get to the city, and you'll know when you get there. Thus, the only functional concern there is "What distance is a feasible distance for the player to have to travel to get to Bleen?". Sometimes you'll walk for a few hours, and sometimes you might catch a ride on a wagon (smaller XP objectives versus bigger ones), but, a foot is a foot. If an hour of walking gets you to Bleen, it gets you to Bleen. If it doesn't, then it doesn't. The only way this example fails is that any distance that takes you PAST Bleen would be useless, whereas XP gain past a level-up goal is still automatically applied toward the next level-up goal.

[Jumble Murdersense]

the hiding of these values could serve to make a player's choice less "synthetic".

 

This sounds quite interesting and is an option I would like to see. A checkbox in the game options as suggested by Osvir would be good.

[Melankolia]

I totally agree that experience should be hidden due to it will make the playing more enjoyable when you don't have to worry how much exp you get or think if you would have got more exp by doing a different choice. Least there should be an option to hide the exp bar and information about the exp gain from the beginning of the new game.

[Inarius]

I actually really dislike the idea and don't really see why its necessary. It wont stop people from metagaming if they want to, because the xp values are going to be in the game files for people to post on the internet anyway. Making it a toggle isn't as simple of an idea either because its going to add a lot of QA time to make sure that the exp is actually hidden(or not) for every reward in the game, and lets face it QA tends to be Obsidians weak point. I think its just a lot of fussing for no real effect, people who want to metagame will find a way there's no reason to hold everyone's hands to try and stop a few from fretting over their choices.

[Sir Chaox]

This is a very intriguing idea... Like... I'm still trying to wrap my head around how it would feel to play this way.

 

Part of me wants to see those numbers, perhaps because I'm so use to it.
Another part of me is saying "Why? You aren't going to reload the game for more XP anyway. It doesn't matter!"

 

I actually really dislike the idea and don't really see why its necessary. It wont stop people from metagaming if they want to, because the xp values are going to be in the game files for people to post on the internet anyway. Making it a toggle isn't as simple of an idea either because its going to add a lot of QA time to make sure that the exp is actually hidden(or not) for every reward in the game, and lets face it QA tends to be Obsidians weak point. I think its just a lot of fussing for no real effect, people who want to metagame will find a way there's no reason to hold everyone's hands to try and stop a few from fretting over their choices.

 

It should actually be fairly easy to implement this, so I would not worry about that angle of it.

 

I think doing this as a simple gameplay option would be fantastic!

 

Edit: I just read someone suggesting this; we should keep this as a separate gameplay option instead of incorporating it into Expert Mode. This is really more for roleplayers specifically than for expert players; some experts will want to see those numbers.

Edited January 26, 2014 by Sir Chaox

[Lephys]

Edit: I just read someone suggesting this; we should keep this as a separate gameplay option instead of incorporating it into Expert Mode. This is really more for roleplayers specifically than for expert players; some experts will want to see those numbers.

For what it's worth, Expert Mode is essentially a set of various option values that can be toggled on and off. In other words, apparently, we'll be able to access all or most of those values individually and toggle them as we see fit.

 

I only say that because I wasn't sure if the suggestion you read was mine for the Hidden Experience thing to be an Expert-Mode-type option. I just meant, that style of option, is all.

 

(Basically, this was just in case you didn't know we'd have a lot of individual toggle flexibility on options.)