InExile is plotting to ruin Torment by making it turn-based

[Mamoulian War]

Of course, they should just give back all the moenyz back to backers and disband the team... Who needs games like Torment or PE, when we can play Clamor of Obligation: Specter Chihuahuas!!!

Edited November 25, 2013 by Mamoulian War

[BruceVC]

Bruce, you know its lose lose with people all the time anyay.

 

 

Of course, they should just give back all the moenyz back to backers and disband the team... Who needs games like Torment or PE, when we can play Clamor of Obligation: Specter Chihuahuas!!!

 

Yeah you boys are right, some people you can never please

[Quetzalcoatl]

The combat obviously needs to be terrible to accurately convey the theme of 'torment'.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Quetzalcoatl

[Keyrock]

 

Lol - glad I didn't back this game. Too many crappy combat games abound. I agree with the guy earlier though who said inXile should've had the balls to decide on the combat system before putting Torment on Kickstarter. 

 

Interesting so now we are judging developers when they are too interactive with fans, so its lose lose for them.

 

Because if they hadn't had the poll people would be saying " I backed the game but I had no say in the combat which is important "

 

The vast majority of people are quite pleased with the interactivity of the project and the direction it is headed in.  It's always those children that toss the toys down as hard as they can and go crying to mommy that make the biggest noise.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Keyrock

[Blodhemn]

My point is that developers should have the freedom to do what they want(which was turn based from what people have said) and was supposed to be the basis for Kickstarter to begin with. But no, they still have to deal with the people who funded the game and give them what they want instead of just do what the developers think is best - which is why they should've had the combat figured out before putting it on Kickstarter. 

[Mamoulian War]

A development even after starting the project might change its focus and pace in the timeline, and it is not a rare circumstance, that there are at some point implemented some minor and major changes, such is the reality in almost every software project put on table, and on which I have in the past worked... What is honoring inXile, that they are consulting these changes with their customers... Not many companies do that...

[Iucounu]

What I hate about turn-based systems is that it's often tedious. Extreme example in Fallout, when you have to fight 10 rats. You can kill each rat with one shot, but  the fight takes forever. If they need to make a turn based game, I'd at least have the option run them at maximum speed (no animations). And the combat system better be worth the time. 

[Elerond]

What I hate about turn-based systems is that it's often tedious. Extreme example in Fallout, when you have to fight 10 rats. You can kill each rat with one shot, but  the fight takes forever. If they need to make a turn based game, I'd at least have the option run them at maximum speed (no animations). And the combat system better be worth the time. 

 

That kind of tediousness comes from failed encounter design.  Encounter is not well planed if it don't give player any challenge but exist only to make game longer. RTwP games aren't immune to this kind of encounter designs which PS:T works as fine example.

[Iucounu]

 

What I hate about turn-based systems is that it's often tedious. Extreme example in Fallout, when you have to fight 10 rats. You can kill each rat with one shot, but  the fight takes forever. If they need to make a turn based game, I'd at least have the option run them at maximum speed (no animations). And the combat system better be worth the time. 

 

That kind of tediousness comes from failed encounter design.  Encounter is not well planed if it don't give player any challenge but exist only to make game longer. RTwP games aren't immune to this kind of encounter designs which PS:T works as fine example.

 

Even so, Planescape with turn based system would have been even more tedious. And I wouldn't say that fighting several critters that only provide a minor challenge is generally failed design. What's certain is that these kind of fights are far more enjoyable and "flowish" to play (and to watch) in RTwP games than in turn based games.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Iucounu

[Keyrock]

My point is that developers should have the freedom to do what they want(which was turn based from what people have said) and was supposed to be the basis for Kickstarter to begin with. But no, they still have to deal with the people who funded the game and give them what they want instead of just do what the developers think is best - which is why they should've had the combat figured out before putting it on Kickstarter. 

Agreed.  inXile is not bound by this vote, they have clearly stated that repeatedly.  This is simply to gauge the preferences of its backers and either reaffirm their own choice (turn-based) or make them rethink their plan before they put it into action in case the vote goes overwhelmingly toward RTwP.  The way it's looking, it's very likely going to reaffirm their own choice, so it looks like everything worked out.

 

 

 

What I hate about turn-based systems is that it's often tedious. Extreme example in Fallout, when you have to fight 10 rats. You can kill each rat with one shot, but  the fight takes forever. If they need to make a turn based game, I'd at least have the option run them at maximum speed (no animations). And the combat system better be worth the time. 

 

That kind of tediousness comes from failed encounter design.  Encounter is not well planed if it don't give player any challenge but exist only to make game longer. RTwP games aren't immune to this kind of encounter designs which PS:T works as fine example.

 

Even so, Planescape with turn based system would have been even more tedious. And I wouldn't say that fighting several critters that only provide a minor challenge is generally failed design. What's certain is that these kind of fights are far more enjoyable and "flowish" to play (and to watch) in RTwP games than in turn based games.

 

Grinding through trash mobs is never fun, in any type of combat systems.  Even in loot em ups grinding through trash mobs is boring and tedious (boss and champion fights are fun, though), and those games are specifically built around grinding through hundreds and hundreds of mobs.  What makes grinding through trash mobs in loot em ups bearable is the promise of some cool loot randomly dropping off one of them, which is why loot em ups are so heavily dependent on striking the right balance of rare loot drop frequency and the quality and uniqueness of the loot itself.  More traditional, story-driven RPGs are not nearly as dependent on loot, which leaves picking up a few experience points here and there as the only "joy" to grind through trash mobs.  Making experience more bound to quest completion than killing enemies, or eliminating experience from killing enemies altogether, completely gets rid of the need to even have trash mobs at all (which is a very good thing in my book).

 

Anyway, Brian Fargo and Co. have already stated that they will not have filler fights and trash mobs, so any point about which combat system makes grinding through trash mobs more bearable is moot, on account of there not being any trash mobs.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Keyrock

[Althernai]

Even so, Planescape with turn based system would have been even more tedious. And I wouldn't say that fighting several critters that only provide a minor challenge is generally failed design. What's certain is that these kind of fights are far more enjoyable and "flowish" to play (and to watch) in RTwP games than in turn based games.

Yes, but that doesn't mean that a turn-based system is going to be necessarily worse than a RTwP one for a game that does not include large numbers of weaker enemies in its combat. It is true that the latter style only works with a real time system, but how many games have made it work well? It requires a lot of work put into encounter design which very few people are willing to do and even fewer are good at. For every Baldur's Gate 2, there's a Planescape: Torment and something even worse (consider the atrocity that constitutes 90% of combat in The Old Republic MMO). It's entirely possible that whatever it is they do with their Crisis system will work better with turn based (provided they're willing to eliminate most of the weaker enemies as they said).

[PrimeJunta]

"Turn-based is bad because Fallout" is not much of an argument IMO, any more than "RTwP is bad because Planescape: Torment." 

 

I'm in the TB camp for party-based fantasy cRPG's with full party control because I found the best TB combat in that genre that I've played (ToEE) much more enjoyable than the best RTwP combat I've played (IWD, SoZ).

 

That said, I won't tear my robe and sprinkle ashes on my head if they decide to go with RTwP in the end. If the rest of the game lives up to its promise, I'll tolerate even badly broken combat.

[Blodhemn]

A development even after starting the project might change its focus and pace in the timeline, and it is not a rare circumstance, that there are at some point implemented some minor and major changes, such is the reality in almost every software project put on table, and on which I have in the past worked... What is honoring inXile, that they are consulting these changes with their customers... Not many companies do that...

They already made their choice. It makes no sense to "consult" backers at this point, other than some lame PR. Do they really need outsiders making decisions for them? I thought they're supposed to be experienced game developers. 

[Elerond]

 

A development even after starting the project might change its focus and pace in the timeline, and it is not a rare circumstance, that there are at some point implemented some minor and major changes, such is the reality in almost every software project put on table, and on which I have in the past worked... What is honoring inXile, that they are consulting these changes with their customers... Not many companies do that...

They already made their choice. It makes no sense to "consult" backers at this point, other than some lame PR. Do they really need outsiders making decisions for them? I thought they're supposed to be experienced game developers. 

 

 

During their kickstarter campaign they said that they will draft couple different combat systems that in their opinion will work fine in the game so that people can give their opinion about them and then most of the backers though that was good plan, which is reason why they now ask backers opinion about it. Although during drafting those said combat systems they have started to favor one over other, because in their opinion it's easier and faster to implement, which of course don't mean that it would be the best system for the game, which it is in my opinion, not because it easier to implement, but how they describe it to work versus how they describe other system to work.

[BruceVC]

 

 

A development even after starting the project might change its focus and pace in the timeline, and it is not a rare circumstance, that there are at some point implemented some minor and major changes, such is the reality in almost every software project put on table, and on which I have in the past worked... What is honoring inXile, that they are consulting these changes with their customers... Not many companies do that...

They already made their choice. It makes no sense to "consult" backers at this point, other than some lame PR. Do they really need outsiders making decisions for them? I thought they're supposed to be experienced game developers. 

 

 

During their kickstarter campaign they said that they will draft couple different combat systems that in their opinion will work fine in the game so that people can give their opinion about them and then most of the backers though that was good plan, which is reason why they now ask backers opinion about it. Although during drafting those said combat systems they have started to favor one over other, because in their opinion it's easier and faster to implement, which of course don't mean that it would be the best system for the game, which it is in my opinion, not because it easier to implement, but how they describe it to work versus how they describe other system to work.

 

Interesting and relevant information, thanks

[Amentep]

 

Is voting done yet? If so, how did it turn out?

Still going on:

 

Indf/RTwP/TB

684/6331/6582

 

 

I hear the TB fans are voting via an orderly queue but its taking a lot of time to get through; on the other side, some joker yelled out "SPACE BAR" around the RTwP fans and now they're stuck waiting for someone to yell it again.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Amentep

[BruceVC]

 

 

Is voting done yet? If so, how did it turn out?

Still going on:

 

Indf/RTwP/TB

684/6331/6582

 

 

I hear the TB fans are voting via an orderly queue but its taking a lot of time to get through; on the other side, some joker yelled out "SPACE BAR" around the RTwP fans and now they're stuck waiting for someone to yell it again.

 

 

That was clever

[Meshugger]

 

 

Is voting done yet? If so, how did it turn out?

Still going on:

 

Indf/RTwP/TB

684/6331/6582

 

 

I hear the TB fans are voting via an orderly queue but its taking a lot of time to get through; on the other side, some joker yelled out "SPACE BAR" around the RTwP fans and now they're stuck waiting for someone to yell it again.

 

 

Holy **** :D

[Keyrock]

 

 

Is voting done yet? If so, how did it turn out?

Still going on:

 

Indf/RTwP/TB

684/6331/6582

 

 

I hear the TB fans are voting via an orderly queue but its taking a lot of time to get through; on the other side, some joker yelled out "SPACE BAR" around the RTwP fans and now they're stuck waiting for someone to yell it again.

 

[Zoraptor]

Even so, Planescape with turn based system would have been even more tedious. And I wouldn't say that fighting several critters that only provide a minor challenge is generally failed design. What's certain is that these kind of fights are far more enjoyable and "flowish" to play (and to watch) in RTwP games than in turn based games.

 

The fundamental problem with that sort of encounter is that it's just something to do to fill a space, and serves no other purpose. That problem is not unique to TB- something like the Deep Roads in Dragon Age Origins would be an example in RTWP style of too many weak monsters in too many similar encounters bogging down a RTWP game. Would the Deep Roads be worse in TB? Yes, but the fundamental problem in both cases would be the poor encounter design, DAO's (and indeed, Fallout's) combat is fine when the encounters are designed well. For TB you just need fewer enemies, and more 'meaningful' choices to use to balance out the decreased apparent speed.

 

There is a bit of a dichotomy between people who prefer fewer, more tailored and challenging fights who usually want TB and those who prefer more, but less individually challenging fights who tend to prefer RTWP. Personally, combat for the sake of combat sets my teeth on edge whatever the style, but if they're going for few but tailored encounters then that and '10 rat syndrome' should not be a problem.

[Azure79]

I prefer RTwP, but don't mind turn-based combat at all.

[CaptainMace]

People give way too much of a **** about this stuff.

 

Come on dude, we all know what's important for a Torment reboot is definetely the combat system...

[melkathi]

And Zoraptor didn't even talk about DA2 encounter design *shudder*

[Zoraptor]

And Zoraptor didn't even talk about DA2 encounter design *shudder*

 

DA2 has too much baggage and is too 'easy' a target. Far better to pick a generally well regarded and certainly less polarising game which illustrates the flaw as part of its generally well regarded whole rather than one where we'll end up with the DA2 wars #32456 in a set of 1 million. It'd also invite comparisons with some more polarising TB titles- Arcanum, whose TB combat was not always the best implemented, designed or balanced; or Wizardry 8, which had the potential to make the Deep Roads look like a quick frolic through a field of wildflowers even when using WizFast (though at least Wiz8 was consistently challenging...).

 

Fundamentally, trying to prove one or the other is better/ worse by looking at the worst implementations is generally counter productive- you have to hope that whatever method they chose they'll take the best from the system and design to its strengths, not its weaknesses.

[Orogun01]

 

And Zoraptor didn't even talk about DA2 encounter design *shudder*

 

DA2 has too much baggage and is too 'easy' a target. Far better to pick a generally well regarded and certainly less polarising game which illustrates the flaw as part of its generally well regarded whole rather than one where we'll end up with the DA2 wars #32456 in a set of 1 million. It'd also invite comparisons with some more polarising TB titles- Arcanum, whose TB combat was not always the best implemented, designed or balanced; or Wizardry 8, which had the potential to make the Deep Roads look like a quick frolic through a field of wildflowers even when using WizFast (though at least Wiz8 was consistently challenging...).

 

Fundamentally, trying to prove one or the other is better/ worse by looking at the worst implementations is generally counter productive- you have to hope that whatever method they chose they'll take the best from the system and design to its strengths, not its weaknesses.

 

I consider DA2 to be an excellent case study for game design, I can say that its worth mulling over it because it was bad but I get your point.

It really depends on how they have designed the mechanics, in Arcanum the TB slightly unbalanced the game because of exp gain on hits. Companions that never get around to fighting lose out on some of those points. It was an issue arising from two different mechanics not working well together.

So it could really go either way, but for my curiosity does anyone recall a game with real time/pause where that mechanic clashed with another?