InExile is plotting to ruin Torment by making it turn-based

[IndiraLightfoot]

As there seems to be a solid support of turn-based CRPGs, preferably classic-tinted ones, may I treat you with a turn-based game by Guido Henkel, producer of Planescape: Torment, Arkania etc?

 

It's called Deathfire, and it needs all the support it can get over at Kickstarter. I'm not saying that I know it will be great or anything, but I think it can't hurt lending a helping hand to such a worthy cause.

 

Here's the link:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/g3studios/deathfire-ruins-of-nethermore

 

*End of shameless plug* 

Edited November 22, 2013 by IndiraLightfoot

[Undecaf]

As there seems to be a solid support of turn-based CRPGs, preferably classic-tinted ones, may I treat you with a turn-based game by Guido Henkel, producer of Planescape: Torment, Arkania etc?

 

It's called Deathfire, and it needs all the support it can get over at Kickstarter. I'm not saying that I know it will be great or anything, but I think it can't heart lending a helping hand to such a worthy cause.

 

Here's the link:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/g3studios/deathfire-ruins-of-nethermore

 

*End of shameless plug* 

 

Guido seems to have a problem there. Two weeks to get 300K with 95K gathered from previous two weeks. The math is pretty merciless.

 

I'd want that game to succeed, but...

Edited November 22, 2013 by Undecaf

[entrerix]

wow thanks for bringing this to my attention, i almost forgot to vote TB

 

but then i did and everything was k.

 

also, TB is winning right now, so everything is super k.  RTwP is so much more lame than TB.   like, twice as lame or more even.

[Labadal]

Voted turn based because it's my preferred style of combat.

[Gfted1]

Is the entire game going TB or just combat? For example, I didn't mind the TB combat in SRR because while not in combat I could travel at normal speeds. But in XCOM you are in TB mode the whole time and I found that a bit tedious, especially when the missions were over and I still had to move my team all the way back across the map to my extraction point.

[Mamoulian War]

wow thanks for bringing this to my attention, i almost forgot to vote TB

 

but then i did and everything was k.

 

also, TB is winning right now, so everything is super k.  RTwP is so much more lame than TB.   like, twice as lame or more even.

 

Like twice as lame?

 

Good that I voted TB few hours ago, else I would be now staying in shame in the corner of my living room...

[Amentep]

I really don't care which it is, so long as its a game I enjoy.  So I'm not voting.

[Zeckul]

I don't understand. Are people voting TB saying that Baldur's Gate 2 would have been better with turn-based combat? I am strongly of the opinion that Baldur's Gate 2 main appeal was the exciting tactical RTwP combat. The second best RPG I've played, Mask of the Betrayer, was also RTwP . The third best RPG I've played, Planescape Torment, was also RTwP - admitedly, combat was not its strongest point, but that wasn't due to its real-time nature. Having it be turn-based would have only aggravated the issue. Why should TToN be any different?

 

Do you really want to see this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdmGthYqTbo#t=960

 

rather than this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCi37-xGpm0

 

Because this is what you're saying by voting Turn-Based. You're saying you want Heroes of Might and Magic-style combat rather than Baldur's Gate 2-style combat. You want the terrain to be divided as a grid and every character waiting patiently while one takes its turn until things are resolved, rather than being able to place characters anywhere and pause when you wish to. I wonder just how many TB voters actually realize this. You are also giving up:

 

 - the ability to actively dodge area of effect threats

 - the ability to race towards or from enemies

 - any sense of simultaneity, i.e. witnessing two of your mages unleashing fireballs together

 

If what you're calling turn-based combat is Baldur's Gate-style combat, then that is RTwP.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Zeckul

[Keyrock]

Do you really want to see this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdmGthYqTbo#t=960

 

rather than this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCi37-xGpm0

Yes.  Absolutely.

[Wolfenbarg]

Honestly, if you specialized in magic at all in PS:T, it was practically a turn based game anyway. And in most of the game, you were plowing through trash mobs where any sense of strategy wasn't even all that necessary. It was the polar opposite of Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale. I don't need to see a spiritual successor to that. I think PS:T would have been a better game if it were turn based anyway. Now if Project Eternity were going turn based, then I'd be angry. But since it's Torment... sorry OP, voted turn based.

[Amentep]

Because this is what you're saying by voting Turn-Based. You're saying you want Heroes of Might and Magic-style combat rather than Baldur's Gate 2-style combat.

 

Actually, what they're saying is they "want Heroes of Might and Magic-style combat rather than Planescape: Torment combat".

 

Which, as I recall, is the one thing almost universally derided by even the most ardent of PST fans.  PST combat wasn't the same as the BGs or the IWDs.

[Zeckul]

 

Because this is what you're saying by voting Turn-Based. You're saying you want Heroes of Might and Magic-style combat rather than Baldur's Gate 2-style combat.

 

Actually, what they're saying is they "want Heroes of Might and Magic-style combat rather than Planescape: Torment combat".

 

Which, as I recall, is the one thing almost universally derided by even the most ardent of PST fans.  PST combat wasn't the same as the BGs or the IWDs.

 

No. Planescape Torment uses real-time with pause combat exactly like Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale; it's even the same engine (Infinity Engine). PS:T's combat was derided not because of the fundamental system, but because of the poorly designed encounters. If PS:T had been turned based, those poorly designed encounters would have been even more of a pain (because there would have been no quick way to resolve them).

 

If you want Baldur's Gate style combat, you need to vote for RTwP.

 

The fact that this obviously isn't clear to a lot of people (and it's not just you, it's everywhere in the comments) throws doubt on the legitimacy of the poll's results.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Zeckul

[Mamoulian War]

I do not want Baldur's Gate style combat. I want Numenera PnP style combat... does that count?

[Undecaf]

Reading the comments in the Torment site, the one thing that distorts the poll a bit - imo - is the fact that many people don't seem to know what taking turns means. They know what real time is and they know what pausing means, but the concept of a turn (your turn, my turn, his turn, yours again) seems completely alien to great many (thinking TB is simply pausestuttering and hence RTwP basically holds both systems within). I wonder where this sort of... confusion is spawning from.

[Bester]

 

 

Because this is what you're saying by voting Turn-Based. You're saying you want Heroes of Might and Magic-style combat rather than Baldur's Gate 2-style combat.

 

Actually, what they're saying is they "want Heroes of Might and Magic-style combat rather than Planescape: Torment combat".

 

Which, as I recall, is the one thing almost universally derided by even the most ardent of PST fans.  PST combat wasn't the same as the BGs or the IWDs.

 

No. Planescape Torment uses real-time with pause combat exactly like Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale; it's even the same engine (Infinity Engine). PS:T's combat was derided not because of the fundamental system, but because of the poorly designed encounters. If PS:T had been turned based, those poorly designed encounters would have been even more of a pain (because there would have been no quick way to resolve them).

 

If you want Baldur's Gate style combat, you need to vote for RTwP.

 

The fact that this obviously isn't clear to a lot of people (and it's not just you, it's everywhere in the comments) throws doubt on the legitimacy of the poll's results.

 

 

I know it sounds crazy but they actually hate baldur's gate and pst. They backed it just to ruin our game. They hate fun. They hate everything good. They're here to corrupt.

[Amentep]

 

The fact that this obviously isn't clear to a lot of people (and it's not just you, it's everywhere in the comments) throws doubt on the legitimacy of the poll's results.

 

 

My point is that if the perception is - and it most definitely is - that PST's combat sucked, its not that surprising that people would vote against doing what PST did.   The pros/cons of TB or RTwP isn't going to factor into it, much less better versions of one or the other (like BG2).  The "experience" (and important word left out of my previous post) were vastly different for the end user.

 

Or its just the die-hards and there usual TB fandom turning out...dunno.

 

As I said, I don't really care one way or the other if the game is good.  I like both styles.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Amentep

[Keyrock]

 

 

The fact that this obviously isn't clear to a lot of people (and it's not just you, it's everywhere in the comments) throws doubt on the legitimacy of the poll's results.

 

It's explained pretty darned clearly right there where you vote:

 

 

RTwP

 

This combat system is similar to the systems used in Planescape: Torment, Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and the Neverwinter Nights games.

TB

 

This combat system is similar to the systems used in Fallout 1, Fallout 2, X-Com Enemy Unknown, Temple of Elemental Evil, and Wasteland 2.

This information isn't hidden, it's right there in front of people's faces when they vote.

 

There is no conspiracy, people are more or less split 50/50 between their preferences for either TB or RTwP.  This isn't something new, this debate has been going on for years and years and years and has been split more or less right down the middle the entire time.  It's a matter of taste.  I lean toward turn-based, I always have, but I'm not going to flip out if the game winds up being RTwP, I'll be fine with that system too.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Keyrock

[Guest Slinky]

Reading the comments in the Torment site, the one thing that distorts the poll a bit - imo - is the fact that many people don't seem to know what taking turns means. They know what real time is and they know what pausing means, but the concept of a turn (your turn, my turn, his turn, yours again) seems completely alien to great many (thinking TB is simply pausestuttering and hence RTwP basically holds both systems within). I wonder where this sort of... confusion is spawning from.

There sure aren't too many turn based games out there, even less TB RPG's. Many simply haven't seen turn based games. That and people don't bother to find out what things actually mean before they start declaring them unholy and horrible.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Slinky

[Zeckul]

 

 

 

The fact that this obviously isn't clear to a lot of people (and it's not just you, it's everywhere in the comments) throws doubt on the legitimacy of the poll's results.

 

It's explained pretty darned clearly right there where you vote:

 

 

RTwP

 

This combat system is similar to the systems used in Planescape: Torment, Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and the Neverwinter Nights games.

TB

 

This combat system is similar to the systems used in Fallout 1, Fallout 2, X-Com Enemy Unknown, Temple of Elemental Evil, and Wasteland 2.

This information isn't hidden, it's right there in front of people's faces when they vote.

Indeed, but then a lot of people must not have stopped to read those. They see "turn-based" and think "Baldur's Gate" because Baldur's Gate emulates a turn-based system - the confusion on semantics was present in this very discussion here, just head over to the comments page and see what many "supporters of TB" claim are valid arguments to support it. 

[Keyrock]

 

 

 

 

The fact that this obviously isn't clear to a lot of people (and it's not just you, it's everywhere in the comments) throws doubt on the legitimacy of the poll's results.

 

It's explained pretty darned clearly right there where you vote:

 

 

RTwP

 

This combat system is similar to the systems used in Planescape: Torment, Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and the Neverwinter Nights games.

TB

 

This combat system is similar to the systems used in Fallout 1, Fallout 2, X-Com Enemy Unknown, Temple of Elemental Evil, and Wasteland 2.

This information isn't hidden, it's right there in front of people's faces when they vote.

Indeed, but then a lot of people must not have stopped to read those. They see "turn-based" and think "Baldur's Gate" because Baldur's Gate emulates a turn-based system - the confusion on semantics was present in this very discussion here, just head over to the comments page and see what many "supporters of TB" claim are valid arguments to support it. 

 

As long as the necessary information is available and presented clearly, and it is, the vote is legit.  If people fail to read or comprehend clearly stated explanations and vote in ignorance, that's their own fault.

 

/shrugs

[Zeckul]

As long as the necessary information is available and presented clearly, and it is, the vote is legit.  If people fail to read or comprehend clearly stated explanations and vote in ignorance, that's their own fault.

 

 

/shrugs

 

But then if people vote in ignorance then that changes how you can interpret the poll results. Clearly the number of people who actually want RTwP is greater than the poll results suggest.

 

In any case even with a 60-40 split it would still be rather close and not the kind of overwhelming majority that would reverse InXile's preference to make the game Turn-Based, so it doesn't matter that much. What personally bothers me most about this is the fact that after 6 months in pre-production they still haven't decided such a fundamental element of the combat system. PE had this down from day 1. I hope combat isn't relegated to an afterthought as it seemed to be in PS:T.

[Failion]

The most strategic black isle game I played was fallout tactics online in real time. The fights were way more tense and entertaining then what turn based can offer. Real time is more entertaining if the enemy is not stupid like the infinity engine games and if the mechanics were more improved to rts standards. Turn based is awesome but xcom and fallout turn based in a planescape torment sequel? I don't know about that. It is a lot easier to pull off good turn based and if inexile feels that would be gaming experience go for it.

[AwesomeOcelot]

You want the terrain to be divided as a grid and every character waiting patiently while one takes its turn until things are resolved

I prefer a grid, RTwP usually would have an invisible one anyway. If you say the T is "waiting patiently" then so is the P in RTwP.

 

- the ability to race towards or from enemies

- any sense of simultaneity, i.e. witnessing two of your mages unleashing fireballs together

Nothing of value was...

Edited November 22, 2013 by AwesomeOcelot

[Undecaf]

 

Reading the comments in the Torment site, the one thing that distorts the poll a bit - imo - is the fact that many people don't seem to know what taking turns means. They know what real time is and they know what pausing means, but the concept of a turn (your turn, my turn, his turn, yours again) seems completely alien to great many (thinking TB is simply pausestuttering and hence RTwP basically holds both systems within). I wonder where this sort of... confusion is spawning from.

There sure aren't too many turn based games out there, even less TB RPG's. Many simply haven't seen turn based games. That and people don't bother to find out what things actually mean before they start declaring them unholy and horrible.

 

 

Yeah, that's likely true.

 

But I had assumed that it is common sense; general knowledge - knowing what a turn is (even if not having seen it in videogames; drawing parallels from real life examples). Oh well.

[Drowsy Emperor]

I hate turned based combat. Real time with pause is the best thing that ever happened to computer role playing, because its almost as tactical as turn based but much more dynamic.

 

There is nothing more annoying than having to go through turn based combat against too easy or too difficult an opponent. You know how its going to end but you're forced to sit there while every animation you've seen a million times plays out at it own pace. And if you're able to skip or quicken it you get a jarring, stop motion mess of a gameplay experience. 

 

The most nerd rage inducing experience of my gaming "career" was the random encounters of any JRPG where you're ripped from the game to the battle screen only to have to spend minutes routinely fighing some insignificant critter. Every five steps you make in game. Wait for the animation to finish. Pick action from list. Wait. Pick another action (for every other character). Wait. Kill animation. Victory animation.... For hours on end. Makes you want to throw something at the screen.

 

That said, the best thing about the original Torment's combat was that you could barge through it to the more interesting parts of the game. If it was turn based it would be equally obnoxious but twice as drawn out.

 

But, this game has nothing to do with the real Torment, so ... who cares.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Drowsy Emperor