Update #60: Camaraderie

[yog-sothot]

great stuff Chris ! I am so excited about this game... Even in this time of new console generation, Eternity and Torment are with no doubts the game I'm expecting the most 

[Kibokin]

Companions are so important for a memorable RPG, but IMO many games in the past concentrated too much on creating detailed followers, making the companions and their stories more  important than the PC and his story.  Giving companions a complex personality, long backround story, lots of text to speak, and their own quest: all this can be in vain, if there is no bond between the PC and the companion.

IMO Neverwinter Nights is an example of how this can go wrong, where the companions had excessive, well written backround storys, and they were eager to explain their past to the PC. But this is all that happened in the dialogues, they told you their story, and you just listened and clicked on continue... there was very few interaction, and the companions had no interest whatsoever in the PC and his story. But interaction in dialoge, mutal interest, is the key to create a bond between the companion and the PC. If you meet a guy, and all he ever does is talk about himself, would you like this person? Would you want to have him around?

 

I believe that if you want the player to really care for a follower, you'll need to make the follower care about the PC first. Let the follower be interested in the PC and his story, make him ask questions like: why are you doing all this; do you like cake... Questions of personal nature can give the player the impression that the follower is curious about the PC, and appreciates his opinions and views. This is how an initial, basic relationship can be established, which can grow into more. Once this happened, the player will probably love to listen to the followers backround story, and help him out in a personal quest.

 

Anyway i think PE is on a good way with the companions.

 

Sorry for my poor English, i hope the text makes sense.

 

 

[Plasma Jesus]

Yay Chris update!

great drawings!

Interesting update about the companions, honestly I'd be 100% ok with the update just telling us itll be like the PS:T companions or the good KotOR2 ones.

[agris]

One thing I am really liking the sound of with regards to companion development of this game is that it seems that in contrast to previous Obsidian titles, the companions (and general writing level) will be of a more adult content - and by that I don't mean nudity or swearing but in tone, quality and theme.

 

The writing in most RPGs is clearly aimed at a PG audience. Games like Dragon Age attempt to be edgy but fail miserably in delivery.

 

I'd like to see some companions/dialogue on the level of The Wire or A Song of Ice and Fire (as much as I hate the TV series, the book dialogue is great).

 

with a character mix of something like McNulty, Kima, Daniels, Freamon, Herc and Carver would be an interesting party haha.

 

I agree. While reading Update 60, my mind wandered to Omar and Bubbs from The Wire. I would be careful that your expectations don't get set too high though, as it's widely agreed that The Wire had some of the best character development of any filmed drama.

 

Chris, can you comment on if the companion writers plan to include themes of addiction? Outcasts, addiction, redemption.. even characters who fall from grace precisely BECAUSE they associate with the PC (kinda like Dak'kon, but you really just get to debase him even further, he doesn't start in 'grace').. these are themes I've been looking for in RPG companions.

[Oner]

I name thee Update Of The Decade.

So much wonderful, juicy information! And you guys covered a bunch of stuff I was a bit worried about!

And MCA writing the cipher, who won't be redundant with my cipher? SQUEEEEEEEE!

 

I have some questions though, if someone would be nice enough to answer:

-Since you guys mention theology, worldviews, etc, can we expect meaty arguments between the companions, and more importantly, the companions and the PC? I'm thinking along the lines of the Myron conversation in FO2, where you break down how Jet is created with thoroughly and intelligently written lines*, instead of "Go on", "Uh-huh" and "I strongly disagree!" So, will our character have anything really intelligent to add to these conversations? If yes, will it be tied to professions, attributes, or generally available (not counting skill checks here).

 

-Could you tell us who writes each companion? I'm a curious person. :D

 

-You also touched on the narrative aspect a little as well. Will you guys do a Narrative update eventually? I'm not asking for a story breakdown (and by all that is holy, no spoilers, thank you!), but rather how the plot will progress. Will it be hub based, like Mass Effect or Alpha Protocol? Should we expect the return of the Honeycomb quest structure? Or completely linear, like say, Septerra Core? Something in between, like NwN1 or The Witcher, with linear progression between hubs?

 

*I remembered certain people being involved with Planescape 'My PC sure talks a lot' Torment, so I guess this is a stupid question in the end.

 

 

Oh lords, to me this update is so wonderful.. ;_;

Edited July 24, 2013 by Oner

[hideo kuze]

Great update Chris.

 

 

I was left a bit confused regarding the 8 adventurers.

Are these the ones you create in the Adventurer's Hall? Or are they something else?

 

 

I really liked reading the following:

 

For Eternity, we’re setting it up so even if players choose the same classes as some companions, the companions are designed to assist those character types and make them more special (ciphers, for example, can chain, and even priests with the same religion can discuss theology and combo attacks).

 

some mild Chronotrigger influences?

 

Now I got really curious on what will happen when 3 priests walk into an inn

[Lephys]

some mild Chronotrigger influences?

 

Now I got really curious on what will happen when 3 priests walk into an inn

Obviously, they Rock-Paper-Scissors to see who brings the heals for those face bruises.

 

And yes, Chrono Trigger influences, FTW! Two Wizards are better than one, 8D! Seriously, I know it's an action game, but I urge the team to pay attention to the way combos worked in Mass Effects 2 and 3. I'm not saying "Make the gameplay like Mass Effect's gameplay." Just... they made a little combo go a long way, and they could've even done a lot more. It was very active combos, and felt a LOT better than DA:O's "Hey, if they have an obscure status from one class, this other class can then deal bonus damage! 8D!" system. So rudimentary...

 

Also, it's great to know you guys are sparing no expense with the companions... I mean, they're like... champagnions. 8D

[Doppelschwert]

Now I got really curious on what will happen when 3 priests walk into an inn

 

That depends on the punchline the joke will have

[Sugarjaye]

I love this post. For me the companions are just as important as my own character. And if the companions aren't memorable, than the game is generally lacklustre also. So very optimistic so far.

[Woldan]

But now the questions is... can we get much higher?

I want to be at least 10 miles high!   

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RLuP9BjVCg

 

Love the update, I almost feel like a yes-man but every update made my anticipation for the game grow significantly. I really can't find anything to complain about. 

I have just one question about.....

 

The companions have unique signature items (very Torment and Baldur’s Gate) in addition to their personalities and strong visual signatures as well.

When you mentioned that those signature items will be ''very Torment and Baldur's gate, will said special items be removable? Several companions in BG2 had non-removable special equipment and late in the game those items got hopelessly outclassed or some of those items didn't even do anything but blocking an item slot.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Woldan

[Ieo]

Companions are so important for a memorable RPG, but IMO many games in the past concentrated too much on creating detailed followers, making the companions and their stories more  important than the PC and his story.  Giving companions a complex personality, long backround story, lots of text to speak, and their own quest: all this can be in vain, if there is no bond between the PC and the companion.

 

IMO Neverwinter Nights is an example of how this can go wrong, where the companions had excessive, well written backround storys, and they were eager to explain their past to the PC. But this is all that happened in the dialogues, they told you their story, and you just listened and clicked on continue... there was very few interaction, and the companions had no interest whatsoever in the PC and his story. But interaction in dialoge, mutal interest, is the key to create a bond between the companion and the PC. If you meet a guy, and all he ever does is talk about himself, would you like this person? Would you want to have him around?

 

I believe that if you want the player to really care for a follower, you'll need to make the follower care about the PC first. Let the follower be interested in the PC and his story, make him ask questions like: why are you doing all this; do you like cake... Questions of personal nature can give the player the impression that the follower is curious about the PC, and appreciates his opinions and views. This is how an initial, basic relationship can be established, which can grow into more. Once this happened, the player will probably love to listen to the followers backround story, and help him out in a personal quest.

 

Anyway i think PE is on a good way with the companions.

 

Sorry for my poor English, i hope the text makes sense.

 

There are two aspects to PC versus companion content development, I think: Dialogue options with "personality" and then the total PC reactivity with the world. The thing is, companions are essentially extensions of the immersive environment given individuality. As a part of the world alien to the PC, the companions know things we don't. One trap when creating dialogue, e.g. Dragon Age, was that the PC lacked personality most of the time and was only asking questions. Then if the writer injects a lot of personality into PC dialogue, there's the risk that without enough options, that would narrow roleplay possibilities for the player, on top of which I don't think the writer should make too many factual assumptions within PC dialogue either, or it's like a type of intellectual godmoding. 

 

As for the character story part, this is going to depend heavily on the game narrative first. Like I said elsewhere, it doesn't matter to me how much of the PC's backstory is prewritten because the dialogue options ultimately should shape both the PC and his/her effect upon the world.

 

But you don't need to worry about this or even advise Obsidian on the matter. PS:T, which Avellone wrote, is a perfect example of balanced PC/companion depth tied so intrinsically to the game narrative. 

 

* Tons of PC dialogue options with different personality, also asking questions.

* PC backstory is pre-written, but you had completely control over actual personality development and world reactivity (choices), which in turn affected how companions reacted to you.

[ScionKai]

Great update.

 

I hope we get to update characters like in PS:T with Dak'kon and his Circles of Zerthimon if certain stats are high enough, and if there is a system for updating your ability scores like PS:T, I will be very, very happy!!!

Edited July 25, 2013 by ScionKai

[ManifestedISO]

Finally, a game that will make 14hrs of playtime feel like 45mins.     

[Tuckey]

I am happy that characters will be commenting on the world around them and having their own opinions on things. Signature items are also a cool thing, like Minsc with his hamster Boo. It removed a useful slot for potions but you didn't care because Minsc is not Minsc without Boo and it was a part of the charm.

 

I also like the idea of chaining abilities if you are with the same class; how extensive is that though? Does it just apply to combat? If I'm a thief character with other thief characters will options open up to me like that screen with the egg and the cliff?

 

Imagine now a different scenario with a prince being escorted out of the city; maybe now I can lay an ambush with my thieves ala robin hood instead of just challenging someone on the road with my party? Like the way the writing is going, you guys know what your doing.

[Prometheus]

good update, but is there an update next week?
On the kickstarter site it says, see you in a couple of weeks, but this sentence is missing in the forum post(see picture below(left is the forum post, right is the kickstarter site)).

Edited July 25, 2013 by Prometheus

[JFSOCC]

It's been bi-weekly for a while now.

[Fearabbit]

I really like the fact that you guys put some thought into the problem of having two party members of the same class. I think ideally a party where everyone has the same class should be kind of viable too. Since I'm guessing that (in addition to Ciphers) Druids, Priests, Wizards and Chanters will be able to chain their powers too, that only leaves the less magical classes. I'm sure you'll come up with something though.

More Paladins/Fighters could mean more order in the party, and therefore better defense... Barbarians/Monks could get offensive bonuses and Rangers/Rogues could get better chances at critial hits because they act in unison to expose weak spots of their enemies. Something like that.

 

In any case, I hope we'll hear more about the different classes and companions soon.

...Especially now that we know that this all has some sort of theme to it. It was just an offhand comment, but now you got us all excited about the story and the themes of the game. :D I hope you'll choose to share some of that soon.

 

Oh, maybe this is a question you can actually answer: Now that you have determined the main themes as well as the main outline for the story, are you expecting to give the project an actual name soon?

[Prometheus]

It's been bi-weekly for a while now.

No it was never bi weekly. Between The Updates 56-59 was no break.Before that we had two weeks with an update and then a week with a break

Edited July 25, 2013 by Prometheus

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I'm still waiting for a magic system update. With the exception of Magicka's novelty, I haven't played a CRPG with an interesting magic system since the Infinity Engine games. I doubt they will inform us on this mechanic any time soon, but I eagerly await it none-the-less.

[Gfted1]

I'm still waiting for a magic system update. With the exception of Magicka's novelty, I haven't played a CRPG with an interesting magic system since the Infinity Engine games. I doubt they will inform us on this mechanic any time soon, but I eagerly await it none-the-less.

 

There hasn't been a spell list or anything like that released but we do know a few tidbits about the system:

 

1) There are per encounter and per day cool downs, depending on the spell power (?). As you gain level what was once per day may eventually become per encounter.

2) Spells must be queued (memorized) by being placed in a grimoire (for wizards). Not sure how that will work for clerics, ciphers and chanters.

3) I thought I remembered more but I guess not.

[Prometheus]

 

I'm still waiting for a magic system update. With the exception of Magicka's novelty, I haven't played a CRPG with an interesting magic system since the Infinity Engine games. I doubt they will inform us on this mechanic any time soon, but I eagerly await it none-the-less.

 

There hasn't been a spell list or anything like that released but we do know a few tidbits about the system:

 

1) There are per encounter and per day cool downs, depending on the spell power (?). As you gain level what was once per day may eventually become per encounter.

2) Spells must be queued (memorized) by being placed in a grimoire (for wizards). Not sure how that will work for clerics, ciphers and chanters.

3) I thought I remembered more but I guess not.

 

I think only wizards must memorize their spells.

We also do know how each spellcaster gains their spells:

Wizards learn a few spells every time they gain access to a new spell level. They must find the rest of the spells for each level in the world (stores or found grimoires). No matter how many spells a wizard knows, he or she can only have a subset of those spells available in a given grimoire at one time, meaning that the number of spells they can choose from at any given time is more limited than those of clerics or druids.

 

Clerics and druids gain access to all spells of a given level as soon as they are able to cast from that level, though their spell lists are smaller than those of wizards.

 

Chanters learn some phrases as they advance and can find additional phrases in the world. Ciphers choose individual powers as they advance.

 

And we do know how the magic of the chanter works: he begins chanting at the beginning of a fight. Chants are made up of phrases. Each phrase has a specific effect that lasts for the duration of the phrase plus an additional "linger" into the next phrase. Players build their own chants out of the phrases they know. After a chanter has spoken a number of phrases, she can use a targeted roar. This is a special type of phrase, but it is shouted in a cone always in front of the chanter. see here

 

If they still want to do unique spell lists for each class(see quote below),  then I think they should explain the magic sytem of a class in seperate class updates like the monk or paladin update.

Currently, spells are entirely unique to each class.

[Lephys]

Could someone please provide some kind of reference to the talk of memorization? From what I understood, they hadn't really said anything about actual memorization. And, I wanna say they said something about how, as a difference from the standard Vancian magic system, you'll just have access to all spells in a given grimoire. There was even talk of switching between grimoires/spell sets in combat, much like weapon set switching (longsword to longbow, and back, etc.).

 

Anywho, I'm just curious about those details. I'll try to dig up the stuff I seem to be recalling, to make sure I'm not just imagining things. But, it kinda sounded like they were doing the following (example):

 

You currently have 5 LvL-2 spells in your Grimoire. You can cast 3 LvL-2 spells per-day. You can cast 3 of the same spell, or any combination of 3 instances of any of the 5 spells of that level in your Grimoire. If you switch grimoires, to one with 5 DIFFERENT LvL-2 spells, then you can expend your remaining LvL-2 spell ammo on any of those spells, while that given grimoire is equipped.

 

Maybe you can cast 5 LvL-1 spells per encounter, because they're easy enough for you at this point. And LvL-0 spells might be infini-cast (like Pathfinder), 'cause they mentioned that.

 

But, the detail I'm closest to certain of is that the limitations of the grimoire are supposed to take the place of the limitations of memorization in the typical system. I suppose you could know, in general, more than 10 LvL-1 spells, but you may only have 10 in a given grimoire. Different grimoires may be able to hold greater amounts of spells, or even apply metamagic-type effects to spells, etc., or affect your casting stuff (this one gives you +3 LvL-1 spells per day, this one gives you +1 LvL-2 spells per-encounter -- even if you currently have a base of 0 LvL-2 spells per encounter, etc.).

 

Annnnywho.

 

Sorry... If you can't tell, I enjoy magic characters.

[Sensuki]

 

It's been bi-weekly for a while now.

No it was never bi weekly. Between The Updates 56-59 was no break.Before that we had two weeks with an update and then a week with a break

 

 

Kickstarter updates etc are hard to edit once posted, so I'd put more stock in what the forum says.

[J.E. Sawyer]

I believe that if you want the player to really care for a follower, you'll need to make the follower care about the PC first. Let the follower be interested in the PC and his story, make him ask questions like: why are you doing all this; do you like cake... Questions of personal nature can give the player the impression that the follower is curious about the PC, and appreciates his opinions and views. This is how an initial, basic relationship can be established, which can grow into more. Once this happened, the player will probably love to listen to the followers backround story, and help him out in a personal quest.

 

We're designing all of our companions to have a direct interest in one or more threads connected to your central conflict.  They may not have the same stakes in it that you do, but they have some stake in the outcome.  That's what provides motivation for them to comment, critique, or praise you for your decisions and behavior.  And because your stakes are often different from theirs, it can provide fuel for conflict.  During any given crisis, you may have a very personal concern while they have a more abstract, philosophical or social concern -- or vice-versa.  At times, they will want to question or advise you.  Other times, they will want your advice or understanding.

[okkoko]

why so much focus on romance i would rather have a feeling of getting somewhere with my companions friendships