ScionKai

I'm looking forward to seeing how the UI works out. I'm sure they will make a system that is faithful to the IE games, but part of me would like to see a more radical approach... Not along the lines of what we typically see in RPG's and MMO's these days, but like an alternative timeline highly evolved UI... Something that doesn't seek to minimize the UI and "streamline" it... But brings it front and center. Make an inventory UI that embraces the fun of item collecting - not simply categorizes and organizes it. Something that is almost a mini-game in itself... And don't misunderstand me by thinking I don't care about categorization or organization... I want it to fully embrace the best of what modern UX design has to offer... Categories, tags, customization and all other matter of bells and whistles. Allow us to filter and sort items by all of their characteristics and have hierarchical categories that allow us to see relationships, origins and even the evolution of weapons through time. Don't concentrate on limiting inventory, or realism. Allow players to build massive vaults and treasure troves. Make a crafting system where we can visualize our components... Maybe a player decides to smelt all of the non magical equipment he finds into vast hoards of iron, steel, copper, tin, platinum, bronze and other metallic bars until it is stacked to the ceiling in a warehouse at his keep. Make UI elements for managing the mini-games I suggested before that you could get lost in for hours... Selling, trading, importing, exporting, donating and swindling goods in a multitude of ways. Give us a fleet of beasts of burden to transport our inventory, from mules to wyverns... And allow us to build caravans worthy of the biggest guilds found in RPGs, complete with mercenaries, festival attractions, mystic gypsies and all manner of oddities and attractions so we can create our own traveling road show for a profit, or trek across the game world to take part in massive seasonal celebrations. Give us an open source designed encyclopedia that functions as a wiki, allowing us to make notes, how to guides, bestiaries and back stories from materials found within the game or even created ourselves... Allow us even to share this custom content created for our libraries over the internet within the game, complete with a ratings system and category / tag system similar to what you might find while searching products on Amazon. Present us all of these readable materials in a lore friendly way onscreen, and even allow us to share that text with our phones and other mobile devices to read while we are on the road. Perhaps some of the most popular, well written content will find its way into mods, expansions or even sequels one day. After all, one of the biggest reasons the Forgotten Realms became such a huge name is that it embraced the autonomy of art, guiding it with original ideas from the publishers over time, but also taking from creative fans what they happily provide the community of the game they enjoy so much. Make the spell UI an enthralling thing to skim through, with spell descriptions and lore circles that remind us of the first time we read lists of spells and discovered what 'area of effect', 'casting time', 'duration', and other information entailed... Have it use the same, brilliantly thought out and optimized organizational system I eluded to above when talking about inventory categories and tags. Make it a beautiful UI that is as fun to explore as the best websites companies with brilliant designers like Blizzard and Tesla have made. Don't worry about making the UI minimal or trendy, make it something we have never seen before, and never knew we wanted. I loved the menus in the IE games, but more than a decade later, it is time for something more. I'm sure the UI is well on its way to completion, and I understand that some of what I mention is easier said than done, but it would be nice to see a developer take this mini-game approach to building a UI that not only gets the job done, but is a hell of a lot of fun to experience while doing it.

Great update. I hope we get to update characters like in PS:T with Dak'kon and his Circles of Zerthimon if certain stats are high enough, and if there is a system for updating your ability scores like PS:T, I will be very, very happy!!!

For V, I meant for the stronghold's army / security force to be a completely separate mechanic from the personal security. The stornghold forces would be upgraded in mass. Say you have archers, infantry and cavalry. You could equip each one through a simple, generic interface. Maybe like a tiered progression. For example, infantry start out with normal weapons and armour - say chainmail and a longsword. You could upgrade to +1, then +2, however bonuses work. And perhaps even take them from chainmail to splint mail, plate mail, full plate, etc. The only change you would see is maybe their color, and you would have a card that you could view which showed each type of troop's stats. As far as actual fighting goes, it would be like a RTS where the outcome is calculated and you see the results after. Bigger bonuses insure less casualties, and allow you to have more battles without much recovery time to rebuild the army. I pictured it being a fairly simplistic system so it doesn't require an impossible amount of resources to include in a game. It is essentially a meta game gold sink after all. The personal security force I envisioned being more customizable. Like a small group of npcs you could give left over items to, and which would use them in battle as the AI permits. How they get into and out of battle could be upgradable I suppose, where initially you have restricted access to them and later gain the ability for them to join instantly. I don't know specifics on either of these, either mechanic could work in a total different manner, all that matters is they function as a gold sink. I'm sure Obsidian will cook up something that satisfies, and I would wager it will be drastically different than anything I suggested. I'm looking forward to seeing what they came up with!

Yeah, I agree completely. I definitely didn't mean a system where you simply lose a percentage of your money and have no recourse. It would only work if presented as a story element or a mechanic you could influence. I don't have any specifics in mind, but I think they could be developed into a great mechanism to function as a gold sink, and it could be multi-faceted too, with various applications of the theme. I think taxes would have to be worked into a game design early on with a clear vision, perhaps regional, or perhaps game wide being one of the sufferances a tyrant or shadow group imposes on the people. You would have to provide a black market, and you would have to allow players to affect change. Taxes may not resound in younger players the same way they do the older generations, but it is a fairly universal concept everyone can relate too, and would appreciate the opportunity to do something about. Also, it allows a game to make social observations and communicate the pros and cons of different beliefs across the political spectrum. Perhaps higher taxes in some regions are evident in the good lives the lower & middle classes live, but also maybe it shows sloth in others if too much is distributed down, or out of control opulence in the how government officials live in others. Maybe in some regions you can see the 0.1% effect, or you see how anarchy and no law are the result of no taxes in different areas. There is much to explore in the that word, and like I said, it would take a clever team of developers to design a system that contributed to the fun of a game, rather than diminishing it.

I absolutely agree, it was something I was hesitant to bring up in the first place. I think in order for any such system to be effective it would have to offer a rewarding storyline, and provide the player alternatives. Perhaps the tax is opt in if the player decides to join a certain group that offers a lot of fringe benefits, wants to become a noble, or it could factor into player involvement with politics or strongholds. I'm not sure how it could be done, but I think a clever team could make it work and be a rewarding feature of the game.

Expensive cents, you can buy a car on these. Quality post. Might&Magic used training and item durability as a money sink. It worked fine, although nature of the game (respawning monsters, AoE spells, flight and relics falling from dragons and titans) still meant player could collect millions with nothing to spend them on. Thank you gentlemen! Aside from a few misspellings and improper uses of there / their (I still don't get how these slip through the cracks, I know well the difference between the two!), I like to think I shared most of the things that popped into my head while reading through this thread. I gave crude examples for most, but hopefully people will see those as generalities, and not me requesting specific encounters be used. One other thing I didn't give my thoughts on was taxes... Something we all begrudgingly deal with but never makes it's way into games. Obviously we play games to escape reality, but maybe if properly done, taxes could be introduced into a a game as a practical gold sink. And if you were to introduce a string of quests where unjustly squandered tax revenue was put to good use, and those guilty of misappropriating funds were severely punished for their actions, maybe it could be gratifying too. Ciao!

I'm late to the party, but community feedback was requested, so I'll give my 2 cents (I have some time to kill so I'll give this a shot, even though it will likely never be read). Interesting(?) note - I really wish brevity was one of my strong suits. Money Sinks: Long-winded exposition: (Money in many single player games does get excessive and pointless, especially in games like BG2: ToB where the player reaches such a high level of power. Typical mechanics for dealing with the problem do come across as contrived more often than not. Item durability can be one solution, but it focuses on penalizing players, not so much adding gameplay value... I'm sure Obsidian would have made a system that worked fine and didn't have a negative impact on the game experience, but to be honest I'm not that sad to see it go. Plus, they don't have to worry about coding it in, so hopefully Mr. Cain can use that balance to invest more into other elements of his crafting system. Also, I don't think anything I suggest is really feasible at this stage in development, so unless I am regurgitating their ideas, whatever sinks they come up with will not be such resource hogs as those Iisted below. Quick Overview: A list of things I believe would make excellent money sinks in a single player RPG (others have suggested many of these, so they are in no way novel concepts): Politics Bribery Give them a sporting chance Stronghold Army / Personal Security Training An extraordinarily greedy NPC Crime Romance I. Politics This is may be my favorite, and something I really hope is already being worked into the game. Being able to manipulate what happens in a city or region by using exorbitant wealth. Don't like the mayor of a city? Have certain NPC's designed to be quite despicable in places of power vulnerable to being replaced in election or buying favor with the person who appointed them to their station. In fact, as with several of my other suggestions, an RPG could develop this into a core mechanic, where many NPC's can be demoted based on your influence. Killing a particularly haughty noble in a game makes you the monster, but what if many people of power could be arrested or outcast based on player actions? (the Roenall quest in BG2 jumps out). Brute force is always a motivation, but in later stages of an RPG, players often reach a level of power most people in the game world would never encounter or expect, so the consequences to offing them will not be very gratifying... Ruining them might, though it likely isn't the path a good character would follow. Be it having them removed from office, loose their family fortune, going to jail (setup a sting or even frame them in case of evil characters, or exposing their past misdeeds otherwise). The preceding was a simplistic interpretation, but ideally, politics would encompass a much more pervasive role in the game... Running for office, manipulating powerful guilds, political assassinations (more about hit squads under "Crime") up to and including regicide, privately funded welfare projects (the town of Creek's Bend could use a windmill), campaign financing, creating a political faction even. These events can be developed into a repeatable mechanic that goes beyond the realm of individually scripted quests. II. Bribery Everyone has a price, make this a mechanic. "I need you to run to the other side of town and get my sword. Do this, and I'll tell you where you can find such and such." If FedEx quests play a part in the game, I would love to see an option to give money in some situations to avoid doing menial tasks. Hopefully the game design already addresses this, but it would still be neat to see situations where I can give someone 5,000 gold to get valuable information. This makes me think about a lot of movies that start with the whole, "maybe this will help your memory" thing... In BG2, bribing almost always lead to a fight, but avoiding conflict through payoffs is a legitimate tactic that certain guards (possibly a random trait) are susceptible to. And it doesn't need to stop their, what if many encounters could be paid off? If I'm just trying to get past an area and it is inhabited by sentient beings, why not offer money to get by them. Maybe I just want to get to a certain part of the map now, why wouldn't some dragons forget they ever saw me for say, 50,000 gold? This introduces narrative problems in some instances, but if used wisely could be interesting. Besides, whose to say later on when we're bored, we won't venture back to the lair and kill the dragon for sport? That wasn't part of our deal anyway... III. Give them a Sporting Chance This should probably be 2B, but if I'm level 20, and a group of obviously overpowered kobolds parlays before the inevitable fight, it would be amusing to have the option to give them some gold to hit the gym and gear up before we would even bother. This could be a taunt that they randomly respond to with violence or maybe even accept. And maybe there is a very small chance that these kobolds or whatever pop back up down the road in full plate with magical weapons. IV. Stronghold I think this is probably the best, but I understand how the opt in nature of it is problematic. But strongholds hold so many promising opportunities... From improving your keep itself, to making the surrounding land more livable should it be on an estate, strongholds give an excellent opportunity to investing vast amounts of money. I liked the estate in Assassin's Creed III, and it would be interesting to see RPG's implement a variation of this. It would be cool to build up a town with an inn, tavern, smithy, windmill, apothecary, butcher, map maker / book binder, stable, tailor, bakery, and merchant post; and spend your money helping train your townsfolk and make them more productive / happy. Something like that would be a treasure trove of quests and can't wait to see it in a game one day. This could be done in the most elaborate way, where you can interact with a beautiful city and really appreciate your work, or a more simplistic approach can be made, where you have a storekeeper in your keep that gives you access to more and more items, based on the proficiency of the townsfolk in a small village next to your fortress. V. Army / Personal Security Building up a small army for defending your stronghold would be great fun. I remember to this day when playing BG2: ToB, where you go after the drow and can go through the slave cave, you fight a huge army of duergar and orogs, and after killing them all, searching their bodies I think I got like 40 suits of +2 plate mail, +2 swords, and +2 crossbows... I remember thinking it would be cool to be able to use all of that gear for my soldiers at De'Arnise Keep. I'm not suggesting outfitting individually of course, but being able to spend gold to equip your security with better and better weapons would be amazingly expensive and if there was just a simple card for each branch of your forces, showing what your archers, infantry and cavalry were equipped with, that would be satisfying. And should any conflicts ever happen, they would get the appropriate bonuses and even be capable of taking on more advanced enemies. Maybe the top tier would allow you to conquer a neighboring keep and expand your lands. A personal security force? Seems kind of out there considering what a machine of destruction your party is, but say you are in a certain province or something, maybe you get a special ability button that allows you to call forth a small force of 4-10 NPCs that will teleport into the fight and hang around for a short period of time. They would require a lot of upkeep to feed and equip them, but maybe they can turn the tide or make some extremely tough fights just a little easier. Maybe that personal security force would be a team you could send on missions to retrieve powerful items, recon areas, or even assassinate second tier and below NPC's that cross you or step on your shoes, whatever your character's threshold is. VI. Training This has two implications I'll list here... If #5 were in a game, you could spend money to train troops to learn skills or improve stats, and if #4 is implemented, perhaps you could sign your villagers up to apprentice under a master in their field in some far off land. The second implication is for yourself. Say you don't like that your constitution is so low, or your level progression is so slow... Allow players to spend totally ridiculous sums of money to improve their character. You can high a gypsy sword master from some ancient, reclusive sect. Just getting an audience with them (say they travel to your keep) would be an unbelievable sum of money, and on top of that, you have to pay them for specific services once you have access to them. Want to gain a level? 5,000,000 gold please. Something that you wouldn't be able to afford using (without cheats) but a few times. And maybe even have them offer less expensive services that only offer temporary rewards. VII. An Extraordinarily Greedy Joinable NPC Combine a great voice, some comic relief, and a penchant for demanding gold constantly and make an NPC that is very fun to have around, and very expensive. Every time you strike camp, this NPC wants gold before he'll even bother waking up. The higher his level, the more expensive he gets. Walking through a town? They're are going to see a lot of things they just can't do without. Meaningless stuff most times, like a handkerchief with an embroidery they have to have, or a prostitute / noble family's heir that offers themselves for ridiculous amounts of money. Maybe some of these encounters can lead to a quest(s), but they always prove entertaining if not annoying. And once the player has met this character, they will be a burden on their coin purse. Even if you kick them from the party or go hostile towards them, they will become a nemesis set to wring every coin they can from you, even if they have to pry it from your cold, dead fingers. Spells have a coin cost, swinging a sword isn't free, etc. Maybe they keep a running tally or something and bring it up every 24 hours or so (this needn't be calculated, just some arbitrary number and a ready list pf petty things they have done). Once you worked out the mechanics, it could prove t be pretty entertaining. Maybe they know how the money situation is and aren't so pushy when the purse is thin... VIII. Crime / Risky Ventures Thugs, bandits, thieves, and the like are common names of enemies in games, but all they ever do is attack. Maybe like how walking on lava in final fantasy games drains health, some cities drain your pocket over time. If you sleep in a certain tavern with over a certain amount of money, you're going to be missing some of it come morning. And let's not forget to address the fact that players without some magical means aren't going to be carrying 500,000 gold across the kingdom on their person. Be it at their keep, a hidden stash, or whatever, there is a possibility it will become a target. If a player loses everything, maybe they are able to go on a quest to recover most of it, but they find a bunch of Harry & Loyd style I.O.U.'s when they reclaim their coin. Corrupt politicians, shady business dealings, law enforcement shake downs, etc. are all possible sinks. You could go into business with that thieves guild, and you could end up spectacular gear, but you could also just end up getting ripped off. Obviously the nature of this sink is a penalty, so how it is handled would be very important in order not to ruin the game for some players. Maybe if you encounter that shady figure in the alley and they make an offer to look at their wares for 5,000 gold you should trust there is a chance they will disappear in the night...But if you are lucky, and they dice roll your way, they show you an inventory that includes some incredibly powerful random items. The neat thing about this is - if the player saves before saying yes, they can reload if losing the gold bothers them, but if you have 90,000 gold saved up, you might not care, the player gets to decide how they want to play the game. IX. Romance Be it a joinable NPC, an encounter with a princess that offers the chance for you to advance your station, or a beautiful lady with a huge extended family suffering in the filthy slums of one of the larger cities, love don't come cheap. In the case of a joinable NPC, they could prove to be like the greedy NPC described under #7... "If you loved me you would buy me those roses!" Too often in RPG's, romance is idealized as some mushy crap where they are just sooooo in love, but you know what? Sometimes people use relationships to get something they want. Written well, this could be very entertaining, and it could be a life lesson for some of the naive youngsters who have yet to feel the sting of a manipulative significant other. Let's not make everyone total cynics before their time though. "Do you want to go to the next step? OK!!! We're getting married! I'm inviting EVERYONE!" Most. expensive. church. EVER. You thought you were talking about sex? "Oh, what type of woman do you think I AM!?" Maybe some opportunity for comic relief, but definitely would need to be written well not to be annoying. A betrothal is one of the other option, but the dowry customs work against the player no matter their gender in this fantasy setting. If you want to take a noble's child you have to compensate him with a vast sum. And moving that poor beaut out of the slums might sound nice, but it would break her spirit if Uncle Fester and the rest of her creepy family couldn't return to their family estate that was wrongfully taken from them when she was a child. Any attempt to have romance be so costly would obviously need to return a reward somehow, maybe a priceless family heirloom or relatives that can move to the keep and offer irreplaceable services for your town, something like that... And there should also be alternatives that aren't so costly. Maybe for the character to get married or less noble relations it isn't a long drawn out thing, but just an offer to fulfill the promise of love at first site, all the while getting a unique reward for a lot of coin, and a few dialog options. ----------------------------------------------- If you made it this far, thanks for reading my ridiculous dissertation!

I agree with a lot of what has already been said... The IE games had excellent ambiance, Torment stands out as particularly good. I look forward to what they will do in PE considering all they have learned in the last decade and the improved tools and libraries at their disposal. I'm not hoping for something on par with what we have seen in the past, but I want to see them blow it out of the water. When I take my character into a town for the first time, I want sensory overload on all of the neat little touches they did, and when visit a city, I want it to be a whole new level of impressiveness with all of the environmental sounds mixing together like a symphony never done before. They've done it before, I'm hoping they have another rabbit in the hat! And one quick thing... Sound effects and the vocal element of spell casting. Playing IE games now it isn't as nifty as it was back then (I think it's because every spell uses the same soundbite, the only difference being male / female), but I really hope they put serious work into taking the sounds of spell casting to the next level. And weapon sounds too... Clanks of swords on metal chain, the thud of blunt weapons against leather armor. I can't wait to hear what they cook up as much as see it!

Being a fan of the Infinity Engine games brought me here, and is why I pledged on Kickstarter! 2014 seems a long way away, but I'll enjoy any and all updates we see in the mean time!