Update #58: Crafting with Tim Cain!

[Hormalakh]

Just because they have decided to remove item durability as a systemic mechanic doesn't mean broken items and scripted-events won't happen. Perhaps certain monsters could apply this status to certain items. I wouldn't rule it out quite yet.

 

All the best to you guys at Obsidian. I hope you are able to come up with mechanics that continue to excite us. Thanks again.

 

 

 

As I posted on SA, Crafting (the skill) and its associated subsystems (like durability) were the elements I felt least confident about in our skill system.  I strongly believe that choices within an array should give the player reasonably balanced benefits.  Because certain fundamental skills (like Stealth) can clearly benefit from multiple party members taking them and can contribute to party effectiveness in combat, I believe that other skills should do the same in their own way -- enough to make all of them appealing choices on multiple party members.  This also has the benefit of making the uses of skills much higher-frequency than the individual uses that depend on designer content (e.g. unlocking doors or gaining a dialogue/quest option).

 

As an example, Medicine in its various Fallout forms contributes to the efficacy of stimpaks.  There are many other places were Medicine can be used in quests and dialogue, but it has high-frequency use with stimpaks (in or between combats).  It's a benefit that can apply to any character who has the skill, even if a character with a higher rating in a party may be "the guy" to perform the high-difficulty actions.

 

With all of the skills other than Crafting (specifically), those high-frequency benefits/uses were easy to come by.  Crafting presented some difficulties and, as I wrote previously, I was concerned about the lack of systemic drains in the economy.  Many people have mentioned a lot of potential uses for wealth.  Most of them are great ideas and ones that we plan to use, but the vast majority of them are not systemic, rather content-dependent or scripted instances (e.g. bribes).  However, it is clear from discussions here and elsewhere that the long-term balance of the economy is not a concern for most players who voiced their opinions -- and almost certainly not in the endgame.

Thanks for all of your feedback.

 

I believe that having systemic bonuses for characters who invest in skills is a fantastic idea. I'm glad you're continuing to go this route.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Hormalakh

[Ixe]

I would like to add my voice to many of the concerns over item durability. While the binary means of having something damaged or not damaged reduces the amount of micromanaging needed over repair, I am still not convinced that the mechanics serve the system. As it has been mentioned, durability fits settings like Fallout where resources are scarce and need to be scrounged, not necessarily a high fantasy setting. Otherwise it can be tedium.

 

The point has been argued that durability acts as a scaling money sink to keep player wealth in check. While it can serve this puprose, it has been proposed and I'd like to stand behind the notion that there are ways to do this that better fit within the world and can feel more enjoyable rather than a burden. Some suggestions have been big things to buy to sink money into. While it may require a lot more planning, consider a stronghold where you can optionally invest into different upgrades. Some of these upgrades, a standing army for example, may have upkeep or maintenance costs that can scale as you improve them, This could be on the same level as the item degradation money sink but feels more like you are investing in an upside rather than fighting a downside. I am not necessarily suggesting this specifically as it may require quite a bit of development, but something along that line is perhaps worth considering.

Another comment I had seen demonstrated that item degradation can lead to a tactically rich game of resource management. While this may be interesting, it is highly dependent on how well constructed the balance between item degradation and other resources are and whether or not any of this fits coherently within this world. I am uncertain if other updates have proved such a lightning rod for conversation and I would be interested in seeing the developers comment and explain their proposed system further if it is so contentious.

[radioactivelullaby]

I would still like to see a durability mechanic with non-magic weapons and armour, like BG. but, oh well...

[Kamos]

Well, I think it is better for this feature to be gone than to have it standing by itself in the middle of the room without anything to support it.

[Cultist]

 

* Removing durability as a mechanic on items.

* Removing the Crafting skill (specifically).

Goddamn Codex tards.

 

[Sensuki]

Just because they have decided to remove item durability as a systemic mechanic doesn't mean broken items and scripted-events won't happen.

Rust monster destroys your Durgan steel weapon.

 

 

(and a reload).

 

[Chrononaut]

Absolutely ridiculous way to design a game. Whiny bitches on a forum which in no way constitute a majority of KS backers or cRPG players in general can make designers change something because they think it's "annoying" or "tedious".

 

Coming up Next on Project: Eternity - Reading what NPC's have to say and your quest journal is "not fun", quest compass inbound.

 

Hopefully they'll be something left of the character system before the game ships, before all the features get voted out by morons.

[Ieo]

Just because they have decided to remove item durability as a systemic mechanic doesn't mean broken items and scripted-events won't happen. Perhaps certain monsters could apply this status to certain items. I wouldn't rule it out quite yet.

 

Honestly, my favorite "durability" mechanic out of the games I've played is "soul damage." It doesn't apply to gear but rather your character soul health. With each death, you lose 10%, and if you fall to 0% soul health, all your stats are reduced by... I think 50% until you get yourself healed up, and it costs more to heal the more soul damage you've taken. So while it can be a gold sink, it also encourages players to play smart as resource management.

 

Edit to add: Obviously this would work less well in games where you have instant reload, but hey, we have expert modes. So. 

Edited July 5, 2013 by Ieo

[Forlorn Hope]

Thank you for the update and taking part in the discussion. I am, once again, very impressed by Obsidian (Sawyer). So nice to see that feedback matters. I wasn't against the initial mechanism proposed but maybe it's better to leave out durability. However, it could've been fitting for expert mode... But too time consuming to implement, I'm sure.

 

Looking forward to seeing future updates!

[J.E. Sawyer]

Absolutely ridiculous way to design a game. Whiny bitches on a forum which in no way constitute a majority of KS backers or cRPG players in general can make designers change something because they think it's "annoying" or "tedious".

 

Coming up Next on Project: Eternity - Reading what NPC's have to say and your quest journal is "not fun", quest compass inbound.

 

Hopefully they'll be something left of the character system before the game ships, before all the features get voted out by morons.

 

There are an enormous number of features/systems that people have complained about that I have not changed because I believed (and still believe) the game would ultimately be more enjoyable as-designed.  I always listen to/read what people have to say, but I only rarely make changes based on what they say.  I don't think anyone would benefit from me ignoring all of the points that people put forward.

[Zed]

I would still like to see a durability mechanic with non-magic weapons and armour, like BG. but, oh well...

 

uh, you mean randomly breaking?

 

[Chrononaut]

 

Absolutely ridiculous way to design a game. Whiny bitches on a forum which in no way constitute a majority of KS backers or cRPG players in general can make designers change something because they think it's "annoying" or "tedious".

 

Coming up Next on Project: Eternity - Reading what NPC's have to say and your quest journal is "not fun", quest compass inbound.

 

Hopefully they'll be something left of the character system before the game ships, before all the features get voted out by morons.

 

There are an enormous number of features/systems that people have complained about that I have not changed because I believed (and still believe) the game would ultimately be more enjoyable as-designed.  I always listen to/read what people have to say, but I only rarely make changes based on what they say.  I don't think anyone would benefit from me ignoring all of the points that people put forward.

 

Woah, developer reply. If I might ask, are their plans to make any craft-able items exclusive to crafting, as in they cannot be purchased from vendors or dropped as loot?

[Hormalakh]

 

Just because they have decided to remove item durability as a systemic mechanic doesn't mean broken items and scripted-events won't happen.

Rust monster destroys your Durgan steel weapon.

 

 

(and a reload).

 

 

Easy to fix that. Make your "rust" status based on random dice throw and do not show it taking effect until a game week later: after players have moved further on. Players will be unsure as to whether their weapons are "rusted" until after the fact unless they take it to a forge and check it.

 

Or something to that effect. Take the ability of players to immediately reload away from them.

[Ieo]

 

I would still like to see a durability mechanic with non-magic weapons and armour, like BG. but, oh well...

 

uh, you mean randomly breaking?

 

 

 

Besides which BG1's "durability" wasn't a mechanic for the sake of gold sink or whatever. It was a symptom/byproduct of the game's actual storyline, so I don't think BG1's weapon breakage is a good model to imitate as a systemic mechanic unless the reasoning behind such an implementation is supported much better.

[decado]

Absolutely ridiculous way to design a game. Whiny bitches on a forum which in no way constitute a majority of KS backers or cRPG players in general can make designers change something because they think it's "annoying" or "tedious".

 

Coming up Next on Project: Eternity - Reading what NPC's have to say and your quest journal is "not fun", quest compass inbound.

 

Hopefully they'll be something left of the character system before the game ships, before all the features get voted out by morons.

Whoa bro calm down lmao.

[radioactivelullaby]

 

I would still like to see a durability mechanic with non-magic weapons and armour, like BG. but, oh well...

 

uh, you mean randomly breaking?

 

 

 

no, i mean using the durability mechanic in this update but only with non-magic weapons as they did in BG. so no breaking, just “damaged”. but i get the impression we'll get magic weapons in the game quite early so it might be an unnecessarily implementation anyway.

[decado]

 

Absolutely ridiculous way to design a game. Whiny bitches on a forum which in no way constitute a majority of KS backers or cRPG players in general can make designers change something because they think it's "annoying" or "tedious".

 

Coming up Next on Project: Eternity - Reading what NPC's have to say and your quest journal is "not fun", quest compass inbound.

 

Hopefully they'll be something left of the character system before the game ships, before all the features get voted out by morons.

 

There are an enormous number of features/systems that people have complained about that I have not changed because I believed (and still believe) the game would ultimately be more enjoyable as-designed.  I always listen to/read what people have to say, but I only rarely make changes based on what they say.  I don't think anyone would benefit from me ignoring all of the points that people put forward.

 

Any chance of keeping the durability mechanic?  Maybe attaching it to Expert mode? Make the penalties more severe (as in, weapons can/will actually become unusable) and it seems like it will fit right in.

[Gumbercules]

One thing I'm still not entirely clear on: will Project Eternity have a limited total amount of gold and potential gold in the game, or would it be possible for a particularly determined player to farm unlimited gold? Because a systemic money sink is only necessary if there is similarly a systemic source of income. I guess if it's always possible to encounter new enemies, and those enemies always or usually drop loot, then a player could wander around grinding loot forever.

 

You could still maybe solve the problem by setting (fairly high) limits to the amount of money any shop is able to pay the player before going broke, or balance the game economy so that reasonable play results in reasonable amounts of money, and let those who want to grind money for no reason grind money.

[Elerond]

Speaking about systemic money sinks, I think that tax and toll system could be fine addition

 

there could be feudal tax for owning stronghold, that will drain your wallet, but you could make it smaller or even change it money source if you make enough effort to make your lands prosper (Which probably would mean that you need to tax your farmers and merchants heavily).

 

Need to pay income taxes for legitimate work could be nice way to drive people to do jobs for dark side of the society. Meaning that you could become richer, but losing your reputation with some factions factions.

 

Road and gate tolls could be also good way to sink players money stock, and it also gives some choices to run around those payments, like building ways to go around toll post, like climbing over city wall (and risk getting caught and losing reputation and need to pay fine), killing bridge guards in lone post, creating temporary bridge over the river.

[JFSOCC]

First up, you guys are doing a fantastic job keeping your heads cool. I think it's awesome that there has been in-depth discussion on this and that you guys listen to the feedback.

 

Ultimately, if those options go unused, I'll have to trust that the majority of players won't be significantly troubled by an excess of wealth in the late game.

 

Thanks for all of your feedback.

  

 

I've never heard anyone complain about having too much gold in BG for instance.

 

I've heard people complain about having too much gold in every game I worked on.  Until the end of F:NV when we introduced (entirely optional) GRA unique weapons that cost a fortune.  Then people complained that the items cost too much.

 

 

 

Alternatively, perhaps wealth can factor into reputation. It becomes a sort of a "You have to be this wealthy to get the attention of the local power players" (my favourite so far, because this means there is some point to hoarding wealth, and combined with other gold sinks a player must choose what to spend their wealth on (if at all)

--

It could be that as the player gets wealthier more demands are being made on him or her. (which a player may or may not indulge)

(quest and dialogue triggers based on wealth)

I would enjoy it if there is some skill to crafting, whether that is player skill or character skill, I don't care.

Would you be interested in thinking of alternative ways to use crafting as a skill, or is it too late?

Either way, I think the current (altered) solution is very acceptable

[IndiraLightfoot]

I'm happy with this decision!

 

In another thread, Sensuki brought up a little used feature from 3rd ed D&D; skills getting enhanced by several party members having it - skill pools, if you will. That concept I think has a lot of potential for certain systems.

[Hormalakh]

I think that if there are no systemic money inputs (faucet) then there is no need for a systemic money output (sink). Since most monsters and loot are hand-placed, then there is only a limited (and known) amount of gold that can be gathered in the game.

 

If you do intend on implementing systemic faucets in certain content then implement money sinks that are comparable within that same content. That way you know how the money flows in your game and too much money shouldn't be a problem.

 

The problem lies in that most players assume that these cRPGs have hand-placed, limited loot in the game, so as you continue to play, your chances of victory continue to dwindle (less money, means less chance of buying what you need/want to win).

[JFSOCC]

I'm happy with this decision!

 

In another thread, Sensuki brought up a little used feature from 3rd ed D&D; skills getting enhanced by several party members having it - skill pools, if you will. That concept I think has a lot of potential for certain systems.

SYNERGY I remember that.

it could work. Teambuilding

[Sensuki]

They already considered and rejected the idea (before i and others suggested it)

Edited July 5, 2013 by Sensuki

[ManifestedISO]

It does seem like just another victory for pirate crackers against Durability Rights Management.  

 

I would have enjoyed the mechanic, but I won't complain about its absence, and I remain confident Obsidian would never cave on principle to appease a few.