Fear of women body in modern videogames

[sorophx]

how is this thread still alive?

 

also, Viconia was my favorite character in BG2

[Drowsy Emperor]

Rule no 1: People who are offended by boobs in as trivial a medium as a videogame have issues. Doesn't matter which - deep seated, or superficial ones they're still as broken as the Mass Effect companions.

 

If anyone is so abysmally insecure that they need Female Shepard to reflect their personal gender politics, then I suggest voluntary comittal to an institution or signing up for the French foreign legion.

 

Its as if I expected Shepard to be a Serb nationalist, then start bitching on forums with ten like minded individuals and all of a sudden I'm an important demographic with an opinon worth considering.

[Monte Carlo]

[alanschu]

Ah yes, White Knights!

 

 

To be clear, I want less overt objectification of women (and men) in games, because I dislike it.  It takes away from the game for myself, as I tend to find it distracting.  Caricatures can work fine (I laughed my ass off in Saints Row The Third), but there's a place for it and I'd prefer greater representation of a wider array of body types and clothing, because I feel it adds to the experience.

 

It also, however, does have technical limitations (especially from a console perspective) to have a wide variety of body images.  If I can only choose one, there's a greater chance that I'll choose an attractive body type for both men and women.

[Humanoid]

It makes sense for fighters to be fully covered but also for wizards to always walk around stark naked, except maybe for their reagent pouch.

 

 

[Water]

If you're referring to nudity as it is used in something like Schindler's List, then yeah sure, the "Western fear of boobs in videogames" is a bit silly. Nudity used appropriately and tastefully is fine. But considering a lot of it is just there for titillation, it's gotten a bit tiresome.

 

Then there's the unequal nature of it, with mostly just women getting put into ridiculous outfits. If a game wants to just hand out cheese/beefcake for everyone, that'd be fine too. At least then it'd be demonstrating a consistent internal logic.

[Chaz]

It doesn't matter if Project Eternity won't have scantily clad women. I think a mature person can enjoy a grounded/practical art style and also can enjoy a more glamorized/sexualized art style that other games have. I think it's extremely petty and immature to attack an artist because he drawn women with big boobs, or attack him/her because women don't have big boobs.

Many people in gaming media have criticized Dragon Crown for it's art style or supported anita sarkeesian unquestioningly because they are too afraid of beign labeled regresive or misognysts, or maybe because they like to stroke their own ego by posing to be extremely mature men and say "yeah, big boobs, those things are for 13 year old". Others maybe do it because their gut reaction is to always side with women when they should be paying attention to the arguments instead. In these forums I asked if there's any evidence that Video Games can cause sexism and misogyny in real life and everyone started to him and hum and to change the subject "yeah I gotta go, I have to study for some exams" that was the best argument I've heard so far.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Chaz

[Malcador]

Ah, great, knew this would lead to the outrage du jour.

[Keyrock]

Ah, great, knew this would lead to the outrage du jour.

Well, at least it took until page 3 to turn this fun joke thread into a morality crusade.

[Monte Carlo]

Can I just get on the record that (a) I like bewbs, especially Russ Meyer-esque zeppelins, and (b) I am not in fear of women's bodies.

[Nonek]

So long as it's not blatantly stupid, or has some thematic reasoning, then i'm not particularly against highlighting the beauty of the female form. Far more important to me is their actual character, motivation and depth.

 

Lets look at Isabella from Dragon Age 2 as a low point, she's not smart enough to realise that in a temperate port city she'll contract hypothermia if only wearing a shirt, especially stupid as she's a native of a much warmer climate. Not only this but she hasn't the intellect to don at least a gambeson to avoid scarring, injury and mutilation from the melee that erupts every few yards in Kirkwall, so she doesn't mind scars, missing teeth, limbs and debilitating injuries. As with all the companions she has no initiative, comes and goes at the bidding of others for years at a time and has no purpose other than to spout pathetic juvenile one liners. There's really no justifying making such a crude caricature.

 

But then again we have Kreia, who needs no such pandering or stupidity. No pathetic witticisms pass her lips, in an attempt to curry favour with the protagonist. No blatant stupidities are indulged. This woman is focused, terrifying in her strength and conviction, deeply flawed in her arrogance and speciesism, but motivated by a moral goal. A goal that sees her abandon either side of a binary tyranny to champion free will, and she should have won, she was the true hero of the Sith Lords.

 

About time we got rid of the former and aped the latter a lot more, in my humble opinion. Kreia was far more attractive to me as a woman and concept than the functionally retarded pirate stripper. Even more impressively she didn't fall back on the clumsy and blatant empowerment of mass slaughter, she manipulated and misdirected, rather than just accruing an ever larger body count. Utterly refreshing.

[Keyrock]

Can I just get on the record that (a) I like bewbs, especially Russ Meyer-esque zeppelins, and (b) I am not in fear of women's bodies.

Noted.  Record updated.  I don't fear their bodies, but I do fear women.

[Orogun01]

On the other hand we could just entirely dismiss anything that Kotaku writes as retarded and think of them as the Fox news of a journalist industry with no standards, shame or concept of what their job entails. Quite an accomplishment, like being the extra "special" kid on the special needs classroom.

[LadyCrimson]

I think there's a worldwide fear of man-nips and manly butt-cheek, because I almost never see those in a game. All that stupid plate, leather, robe and GI Joe armor covers them up. Real fantasy men don't need full body armor. To combat this obvious problem in games, all male characters in all games should henceforth be clothed in nothing but "Chippendale's Leather Thong +3" 24/7, with no other option given. Ever. Oh and they should /dance on command, for my viewing pleasure, too.

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***disclaimer - as I've said dozens of times, I like options, from sedate/demure/more realistic to sexah and fantasy ridiculous. I don't view some games not having a certain level of sexah to = "fear" of male/female form. It's just a matter of people wanting more options, more often...and to not have only one of those options be the 99.9% dominant, only given choice all the time.

[Keyrock]

I think there's a worldwide fear of man-nips and manly butt-cheek, because I almost never see those in a game. All that stupid plate, leather, robe and GI Joe armor covers them up. Real fantasy men don't need full body armor. To combat this obvious problem in games, all male characters in all games should henceforth be clothed in nothing but "Chippendale's Leather Thong +3" 24/7, with no other option given. Ever. Oh and they should /dance on command, for my viewing pleasure, too.

What about mankinis?

 

 

Can we have male characters wearing mankinis?

[Chaz]

On the other hand we could just entirely dismiss anything that Kotaku writes as retarded and think of them as the Fox news of a journalist industry with no standards, shame or concept of what their job entails. Quite an accomplishment, like being the extra "special" kid on the special needs classroom.

 

 

I wouldn't just blame Kotaku, even George RR Martin has said that he gets a lot of **** for writing sex scenes in his books, but funnily enough, not a single complaint about all the violence. Same could be said about video games, you have mass murder in games and everything is fine, but a sorceress has big boobs and everybody loses their minds.

 

 

 

***disclaimer - as I've said dozens of times, I like options, from sedate/demure/more realistic to sexah and fantasy ridiculous. I don't view some games not having a certain level of sexah to = "fear" of male/female form. It's just a matter of people wanting more options, more often...and to not have only one of those options be the 99.9% dominant, only given choice all the time.

 

That's because gamers and most importantly game developers are predominantly men, but I guess they should apologize for beign men that are attracted to women and design games from their point of view. And enough with the victmization, many male character's these days look like freaking models, prettier than brad pitt and with better fisique. so this "99.9% dominant" arguemnt, not buying it.

 

Edited June 7, 2013 by Chaz

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

On the other hand we could just entirely dismiss anything that Kotaku writes as retarded and think of them as the Fox news of a journalist industry with no standards, shame or concept of what their job entails. Quite an accomplishment, like being the extra "special" kid on the special needs classroom.

I thought we were already doing that...

[LadyCrimson]

And enough with the victmization, many male character's these days look like freaking models, prettier than brad pitt and with better fisique. so this "99.9% dominant" arguemnt, not buying it.

Did I say I felt victimized? I don't see that I did.

 

You're missing the point. As more women enter the world of gaming (or, perhaps, as more women become more open/participatory about their gaming), they may want more options for their female characters. I'm not talking about facial or even figure attractiveness in either sex - my perception is it's usually about how outlandishly revealing the clothing options are. Typically, at least in some genres, even if you can play as a female character, the clothing/armor options (if there are any options) are largely about showing off everything. Sometimes I don't want my character running around with giant hooters and chainmail bikini's.

 

So what's wrong with putting in the option to dress them in a more elegant, sedate outfit instead? Especially in a RPG where I thought one of the points is having choices. This fear some people seem to have that some outfits or some chrs not having a sexah option = they'll never see sexah outfits again is, imo, pretty silly. Not even every TV/movie show has women dressed in their underwear the entire time. Why should games be different?

[Monte Carlo]

I think there's a worldwide fear of man-nips and manly butt-cheek, because I almost never see those in a game. All that stupid plate, leather, robe and GI Joe armor covers them up. Real fantasy men don't need full body armor. To combat this obvious problem in games, all male characters in all games should henceforth be clothed in nothing but "Chippendale's Leather Thong +3" 24/7, with no other option given. Ever. Oh and they should /dance on command, for my viewing pleasure, too.

 

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***disclaimer - as I've said dozens of times, I like options, from sedate/demure/more realistic to sexah and fantasy ridiculous. I don't view some games not having a certain level of sexah to = "fear" of male/female form. It's just a matter of people wanting more options, more often...and to not have only one of those options be the 99.9% dominant, only given choice all the time.

 

I agree.

 

But, OTOH, if all female gamers were as chilled and good-natured as you what would Anita and the White Knights do for kicks?

 

Edit: I reckon a good 85% of female gamers *are* as chilled and good-natured as you, mebbe even 95%, But if you give a libtard hipster even 5% of pissed off people then they've got a grievance foothold in the mountain of kulturkampf.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Monte Carlo

[LadyCrimson]

Oh and ...

What about mankinis?

[snip] 

Can we have male characters wearing mankinis?

Nope, they cover up too much of the man-nips at times. Leather thong or nothing!

[Hurlshort]

The Planescape girls look ridiculous, as does that first picture in this thread.  I don't get the appeal, really.  

[Chaz]

 

And enough with the victmization, many male character's these days look like freaking models, prettier than brad pitt and with better fisique. so this "99.9% dominant" arguemnt, not buying it.

Did I say I felt victimized? I don't see that I did.

 

You're missing the point. As more women enter the world of gaming (or, perhaps, as more women become more open/participatory about their gaming), they may want more options for their female characters. I'm not talking about facial or even figure attractiveness in either sex - my perception is it's usually about how outlandishly revealing the clothing options are. Typically, at least in some genres, even if you can play as a female character, the clothing/armor options (if there are any options) are largely about showing off everything. Sometimes I don't want my character running around with giant hooters and chainmail bikini's.

 

So what's wrong with putting in the option to dress them in a more elegant, sedate outfit instead? Especially in a RPG where I thought one of the points is having choices. This fear some people seem to have that some outfits or some chrs not having a sexah option = they'll never see sexah outfits again is, imo, pretty silly. Not even every TV/movie show has women dressed in their underwear the entire time. Why should games be different?

 

 

You didn't say you were victimized, but that's how I interpreted your 99.9% comment.

 

In my experience the western RPGs are usually more grounded, and the ones that go over the top are the asian ones, it has something to do with their culture I've read, they like to play with beautiful characters, In Lineage 2 the Orcs didn't look like orcs, they looked like green muscular men with pretty faces, I couldn't tell the diference between the male elf and the female elf and the Dark Elves were scantily clad, females mostly, but men too, however it depended on the armor.

 

You don't see women of movies and tv wearing the same kind of outfit because it's a different medium, in video games or comic books you can draw characters anyway you want so you can go for an extremely glamorized style where everyone is pretty, everyone is wearing tightskin outfits and you can get away with that, in TV you can't because you usually hire actors for their acting skills and not necessarily their fisique.

 

I don't know why you complain about RPGs, maybe you don't have as many options as you want, but there are a lot of options and out of all the other genres, RPGs have been the most fair to women, they are portrayed to be pound for pound as strong and as capable as men, because that's how we see them today. in a realistic dark age society women would be treated like little more than commodities.

 

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

The Planescape girls look ridiculous, as does that first picture in this thread.  I don't get the appeal, really.

 

Neither do I. I blame the 90s, where everything featured women with breasts the size of watermelons, which is too over the top to look sexy to me.

[Chaz]

The Planescape girls look ridiculous, as does that first picture in this thread.  I don't get the appeal, really.  

 

I take no Issue with that. The problem is when people take it over the top or are so insecure that they start attacking people "If you find this appealing you're a 13 year old" "you're immature" etc. Or what other people that do to take it over the top is to say that these type of games will make you sexist and misogynyst.

[LadyCrimson]

RPGs have been the most fair to women, they are portrayed to be pound for pound as strong and as capable as men,

What does that have to do with how revealing clothes are? I'm discussing revealing clothing and you're discussing other things.

 

And of course TV/film is a different medium - the point, which you're still missing, is that video games don't have to always be all or nothing, just because they can/it's easy. In fact one could argue that because of the format, things like video games should have even more variety than TV/film.

 

I could go on, but I have a feeling you'd still take me too literally or something. There's years of post history you could read through that would tell you I'm definitely not a "feminist" per se. Only that I understand where some people (male or female) are coming from when they say they're tired of feeling like clothing/appearance options are often too limited or outlandishly caricatured, and that I don't see anything wrong with asking for some change/options now and then. It's not the end of the world when it happens, y'know.