Family Issues

[Hurlshort]

Hi Guys,

 

This is going to be a bit of an awkward topic, but I've been struggling with some family issues and I value many of your opinions highly. Plus it's loads cheaper than therapy.

 

Over the summer I received a phone call from my sister. She was upset about something my wife had said to her. My immediate reaction was simply have my wife apologize for offending her, which was not intentional. But then my sister started telling me about how my parents and other sister all have problems with my wife. I called each one of them individually and got the low-down on 10 years of complaints. In hindsight I wish I hadn't done that, but it was probably simply delaying the inevitable if I had brushed it under the rug.

 

So I composed a long email about understanding and unconditional love. I used some bible verses, since my family is into that stuff. Now my wife can come across as brash, that is something she is very aware of. She composed a letter as well. Our big concern was that no one in my family had ever taken the time in the last 10 years to sit down with my wife and let her know they were upset about her words. So instead of having one issue, we had a decade of toxicity being unveiled. It was distressing and overwhelming.

 

Here is an email from my father, which I really need input on. I have shared most of the correspondence with my wife, but I was not comfortable letting her read this one:

 

 

 

Dear <me>,

 

Here is the letter I mentioned. I guess Sunday is off. I do appreciate that you are trying to restore our relationship. I'm very proud of you and this situation is very painful and troubling for me also.

 

I'm writing this to try and clearly explain what the problem is from my perspective. As I've said, the problem is <my wife's> words and behavior, along with your insistence on defending her and accepting her behavior as justifiable.

 

If this letter makes you angry, there is not much point in us meeting on Sunday. We have tried to be patient, accepting and forgiving for many years. We avoided bring things up because we love you and did not want to jeopardize our relationship. And I always hoped your attitudes and behavior would improve.

 

Now the cat is out of the bag, so there is no choice but to be honest.

 

I'll start with two recent stories. I may may not have all the details right but hopefully you get the points I'm trying to make.

 

Story 1:

Last Christmas I decided to stay at the table after dinner and talk to <my wife>. Everyone else had gone to clean up, check on the kids, etc. but I didn't see <my wife> moving so I decided to stay.

 

We talked about wines we liked. She was trying to describe a wine she had liked but could not recall the name. I suggested some varietals and names, most of which she had not heard of. I tried to explain a bit about the different types of wine. It was clear she had limited knowledge, which is fine. But I didn't get the feeling that she wanted to learn more, so I stopped without getting too deep.

 

She then told me about a conversation with a coworker. They were talking about wine and I guess this person started to explain something she knew about wine. <my wife> said she replied "Don't try to tell me about wine! I was raised on a vineyard!" (or something like that).

 

My first thought was "I bet that person could not wait to get away from you". My next thought was "don't you know how little you know about wine?".

 

But I decided to be polite. I said that wine is a very complex topic and I learn new things all the time. And I said that learning is a lifelong process. I didn't get any agreement from <my wife> on that so I decided the conversation was over.

 

Story 2:

Later we are all in the family room talking about 'Vegas and the places we've stayed, shows we've seen, etc. <my wife> was just listening. We've all had fun there and we were laughing as <brother-in-law> was talking about one of the risqué shows.

 

<my wife> then spoke up and said something like "You know why they have those shows don't you?". None of us wanted to hear her answer but we all said "why?". She said it was to excite the husbands for their wives... That she learned that when she was a "showgirl".

 

I guess she thought it was a " teaching moment"? But did she really think we didn't know what these shows are about? Or did she just want to "brag" about being a showgirl? That totally killed the joy in the room and everyone soon dispersed.

 

End of stories. I'm interested on what <my wife> perspective is of these situations.

 

<my wife> comes across as someone who thinks they have nothing to learn.

 

The fact that she keeps bragging about her upbringing or garlic queen or showgirl experiences is just sad. She doesn't look like a showgirl anymore. She needs to stop talking about the past unless someone asks. We've all have had lot of interesting experiences and honors from our past but we now have new experiences to talk about, and that is what people want to hear.

 

Everyone in the family has had conversations like this with Missy. With her "know it all" attitude she is not fun to talk to. She never asks questions. She comes across as a "hard ass" who just wants to talk, but doesn't actually care about people and what they have to share.

 

On top of this of course is the fact that she never says thank you. And she puts almost zero effort into giving or showing us respect by inviting us for dinner. Mom invited my parents and sister for dinner many times in our first years, and had the holiday meals. And these were events she spent days planning and working for. And yes, during these years she worked full time and we lived in a small apartment. Sure, *you* invite us for dinner now, but what I see is that you do almost all of the work.

 

Mom and I have always tried to grow as loving people. We've always read self-improvement books and in recent years we join bible study groups. When I realized I had a problem years ago, I read every Wayne Dyer book and listened to his tapes over and over. It really helped me. If I had not changed, your mom and I would not be married. I still thank God for the day he opened my eyes and heart.

 

<my wife> really needs a similar "aha moment". And then she needs to work to change her attitude and behavior.

 

Finally I'd like you to consider why you want to get back in the family. Is it because you miss us? Or is it for the kids? Or just to win? We love you and care about your welfare, but we also don't think it is good for anyone (especially kids) to be in dis-functional relationships.

 

I hope that helps explain.

 

Love,

Dad

 

This angered me quite a bit, and I cut off contact for awhile. It seemed like he basically wants my wife to change her personality? I couldn't imagine ever wishing that, I'm absolutely crazy about my wife.

 

Coming up on the holidays, I sent an email asking that we not exchange any presents, even for the children. My mom said she had already bought them, so I asked her to donate them to charity. Today they still arrived at the door, which I found rather infuriating. I haven't decided what to do with them, they are somewhat personalized for my kids.

 

So yeah, this is some stuff I've been struggling with the last few months. Any input or advice is more than welcome.

[Oerwinde]

Based on that letter it sounds like your Dad takes offense to stupid things and is rather judgmental.

 

Also, asking Grandparents not to buy Christmas gifts for their grandkids sounds like an unreasonable request.

Edited December 21, 2012 by Oerwinde

[Gorth]

Sorry to hear about your troubles Hurlshot. My only real family issue is that they live more than 20000 km away.

 

Not sure how to put it politely, but without more context, the letter sounds like writing of a "condescending" person.

[Orogun01]

I can say for certain without actually watching your family interact, but it seems that your wife and your family are a mismatch. To make matters worse she obviously feels uncomfortable around them and tries too hard to gain attention (maybe because of her upbringing)Your family also seems inexperienced when dealing with personalities different than their own, they may have been unconsciously "outcasting" her from their circle. (not necessarily because of ill will but because of lack of common ground)

 

If you really want to solve the problem you may try sitting with your wife and talking about her conversations with your family and why/if she treats a conversation as a contest. She may not realize how she comes across. Also, very important that you don't sound inquisitive and above all do not make it seem like you're blaming her. Take the most passive approach possible, other wise she'll become defensive.

On the family side you may ask for them to be patient and understand that she is from a different background and maybe learn to brush off her comments since they are not meant to shock and those moments are born out of a misunderstanding of intent.

 

In case nothing works: pick one, your family or your wife.

I recommend the wife.

[Tigranes]

I think for any problem, when we as outsiders are exposed to communiques like this, we can't help but think they are petty and silly. Actually, they're not - or, at least, I think as outsiders who Hurlshot has asked candidly for advice, we should be careful about running with such biased impressions. After all, 'petty stuff' is what family is made out of, and if several people in the extended family have a problem with the situation, then there is a problem somewhere. I think anyone accusing anyone of being petty is the very last thing that should happen, within Hurlshot's family.

 

The main difficulty I think is that it's been ten long years, and the impressions will have hardened. Hurlshot correct me if I'm wrong, but I also find it impossible to imagine that your wife had not been aware of this in some way - if not that they have a problem with her, then perhaps she feels on her side that she does her best but they are rather brusque? I think at this stage the family would be waiting to see some significant changes in behaviour from your wife, and the question is whether you think you can nudge your wife towards such, or it's not worth it / it is not a good idea. You say she's been keyed in on some of this - what is her thought and what is she willing to do / not do for the sake of repairing the relationship?

 

But I'm too young to have gone through this stuff, so I shouldn't talk so much. Hurlshot I hope you are OK going through it all, I'm sure it's tough to be in the middle, and for you to listen to all this as well.

[Hiro Protagonist]

They say love is blind. eg. If you love someone, you cannot see any faults in that person. That's what basically comes across from yourself Hurlshot with your wife. While your wife is rubbing people the wrong way with things she says and doesn't say (eg. thank you), and you obviously don't see these things.

 

My wife and I have been married for five years and have a wonderful relationship. Sometimes I will point out her faults and she will do the same with me. That's how we learn and improve ourselves. We don't take offense because if it's something where not aware of, we then become aware of it and realise, 'yeah, that is kind of rude/stupid/etc of me'. But you have to be objective and see the faults in yourself.

 

Bragging is also tiresome and no one wants to hear someone bragging about something they did many years ago. If they don't have new experiences to share (not bragging), then it really limits what you can talk about. It also helps relationhips when you invite family and friends over for dinner, but it seems your wife doesn't really care? That's probably how it comes across with your dad.

[Hiro Protagonist]

 

Coming up on the holidays, I sent an email asking that we not exchange any presents, even for the children. My mom said she had already bought them, so I asked her to donate them to charity. Today they still arrived at the door, which I found rather infuriating. I haven't decided what to do with them, they are somewhat personalized for my kids.

 

It's not really fair for the kids to be dragged into this. If you're angry with your parents, then don't use your kids against them. I think that's pretty low tbh.

[Calax]

You overreacted a wee bit methinks. I mean it's obvious he's trying to figure out some way the family can stay a family, but also wants your wife to be able to fit her into the family.

 

It seems a bit like they come from entirely different backgrounds, or at least mental constructs. I mean, it can be quite uncomfortable if she's a-religious and yet your parents are still forcing the family to bow heads and say a prayer every meal time. There could be no real level at which she can connect to your families shared experiences due to geographic location, her upbringing, her current job, and any number of things.

 

I've partly been on one end of this due to the fact that my nuclear family is from the west coast, while my extended family (that we visited a lot) is entirely on the east coast. So while I'm sitting here trying to catch up on 1-2 years of full family relationships and "in jokes" they're breezing along and talking about "the city".

 

We talked about wines we liked. She was trying to describe a wine she had liked but could not recall the name. I suggested some varietals and names, most of which she had not heard of. I tried to explain a bit about the different types of wine. It was clear she had limited knowledge, which is fine. But I didn't get the feeling that she wanted to learn more, so I stopped without getting too deep.

 

She then told me about a conversation with a coworker. They were talking about wine and I guess this person started to explain something she knew about wine. <my wife> said she replied "Don't try to tell me about wine! I was raised on a vineyard!" (or something like that).

 

My first thought was "I bet that person could not wait to get away from you". My next thought was "don't you know how little you know about wine?".

I think this, in part, shows your families disconnects. Your wife might have been saying the "I was raised on a vineyard!" bit partly in jest (it's a story in a story... not much context), but it seems like your dad also decided that she needs "an education" and keeps trying to either work it in, or just treat her like an idiot. Depending on how this story is, your wife might have just been trying to describe a single wine from Napa Valley, while your dad was launching into an encyclopedia entry on wines in general trying to ring a bell for a frame of reference she doesn't use.

 

Part of it is also that the family is unwilling to... interact with her. In the showgirls thing, rather than just say "Yep, <answer>" they instead decided to humor her because it's easier to do that then actually engage her in a discussion. People don't like being ignored or talked down to in a conversation. She might be unconsciously trying to prove that she's actually an intelligent person, and worthy of attention. The "She's not a showgirl anymore" potshot was HORRIBLE on your dad's part too, with her history in the profession being fully relevant to the conversation at hand (after all, they were actually discussing the shows that require showgirls).

 

I'd guess that at some point, she'd picked up on their... alienation(?) of her, which is why she stopped asking the questions. Why ask about somebody's job or family when all you're going to get is a "They're fine, Bobby is in college, Betty is in Highschool, and my husband is working while I clean the house" without basically forcing a confession? And anymore, both parties are going into any conversation with a sense of dread, as they don't really want to deal with the other sides inherent brusqueness due to their predisposed attitudes towards each other.

 

I admit, I'm probably reading way to much into this, given I only have a tiny window into the relationship via the letter. Part of the reason everyone is gonna be up in arms over this is that it's been held back for 10+ years or whatever. There was a refusal to communicate if there were issues, because one side said "That's the way it is, we'll just suck it up" without even mentioning it. And your father seems to work with a double standard. It's ok for the family to discuss past things (the Vegas trips and shows) but not for your wife. Which shows just how big of a disconnect there is between the extended family, and your nuclear one.

 

And give the kids their presents. There's no reason to tell the kids, when the inevitably ask where grandma and grandpa's presents are, that "Mommy and Daddy are angry with grandma and grandpa, and thus we threw out the presents."

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

This may come off as rather brash, but Hurlshot, your dad sounds like a condescending ****. From the instances in the letter, it sounds like he worked himself in to a tizzy over nothing.

 

If you want my advice tell your dad to **** off and that you think your wife is perfectly fine the way she is. Sorry if I sound a bit dickish on the matter, I just had to deal with a girlfriends parents who were incredibly uptight as well.

[Gorgon]

I just spent 15 minuites writing out a response and accidentally hit the back button.

 

 

ugh..

 

 

some other time then.

[Gorgon]

I'll just say this ; when the opportunity comes to call a truce, and it will in time, just remember that they don't have to love eachother, they just have to get along. That means both parties ready to start fresh 'for the greater good'. It's an argument most people can understand.

[LadyCrimson]

Well, obviously I don't know you, your family, or your wife in any social capacity that would make me be able to give anything but cursory advice. I've had my own share of family issues over the years (more than my share, really) and my relations with them have gone up and down and back again. My spouse wasn't/isn't the biggest fan of my family, largely from lack of common ground, but also from different styles of upbringing (what's considered polite/acceptable social behavior etc). It's different for us tho because generally speaking, we don't care that much whether we're all one big happy family, and I don't make him go to or care if he goes to my family functions if he doesn't feel like going, and vice versa.

 

Anyway, I can say this...a lot of the time stuff like the examples in your dad's letter are simply a matter of different ways of communicating. My sister-in-law is one of those very loud speakers, and rather blunt. My entire family is soft-spoken and polite almost to an extreme (at least when together as a family). eg, they're somewhat passive-aggressive. The contrast is startling, and I often imagine if my sister-in-law regularly came to my own family gatherings, my family would look at her in bewilderment, like some kind of strange dervish was in their midst.

 

Thus, to your father/family, they're reading things into what your wife says because she may be saying things in a way that they misinterpret, according to their own set of social standards and opinions on what vocal intonation is "supposed" to mean. Perhaps, for example, your wife was telling a joke re: the Vegas thing (I don't know if that's true, it's just an example) and your family is taking it too seriously/saw it as being talked down to.

 

If you all sit down and try to work such things out, but they're still unwilling to accept that not everyone socializes/communicates in the same way...that is, they can't stop resenting it/making passive-aggressive assumptions instead of shrugging it off or communicating in a timely fashion....I'm not sure there's much you can do about it. (edit: I don't mean it's "hopeless"...but that sometimes it's just something that'll never be fully reconciled...and each of you will find ways to make it tolerable in some fashion or another, for brief visits perhaps)

[Blarghagh]

I kind of gave up on reading after the wine complaint. My first impression is that not your wife but their judgemental attitude and pettiness are the problem, and that is just what it is - their problem. Furthermore, that letter demonstrates the expectation of adaptation to expectations that were never told. An unrealistic and poor expectation on the part of your father. What I saw I would consider totally unreasonable. You have every right to be angry.

 

In this situation, I would likely just say something like "I refuse to take responsibility for your expectations and if you decide to make a problem out of it that is one hundred your decision." However, it's probably not smart to listen to me since generally my way of dealing with problems like these rubs people the wrong way and while I have no problem with people being angry at me (their anger, their problem) I can't say the same for you.

[kirottu]

From those examples your wife sounds slightly annoying and your father(and whole family) overreacts and this has been going for 10 years.

 

I don't have any advice to give other than don't mix the kids into this.

[JFSOCC]

Your father's letter was rather dismissive of your wife. When he said this

On top of this of course is the fact that she never says thank you. And she puts almost zero effort into giving or showing us respect by inviting us for dinner.

I suspect this is more a response to the cold shoulder she gets from your family rather than the cause for grief.

 

To me it sounds like both your family and your wife are proud people, which is never easy because it means you need to often give them validation and they don't take criticism well. (I should know, pride is one my character flaws too)

For instance the wine expertise story, your wife wants to be respected and not be dismissed as ignorant. Your father (perhaps rightly so) wants the same kind of validation because he sees himself as more knowledgeable on the subject.

The showgirl comment also shows how dismissive your father is of your wife's experiences. While he might (or might not) be right that your wife was trying to impress, (not that she was a showgirl, but rather that she has knowledge about a field that they might not know much about) that moment there shouldn't have bothered him so much.

 

The fact that it does shows (I think, in my non-expert opinion) that by the time this even occurred he was already negatively biased against your wife. But then, 10 years might do that. and eventually you may be unable to see anything other than what you are looking for... in this case the negative interpretation of something which, lets face it was a rather mundane exchange.

A resentment that has been built over 10 years can't be killed in a short period. it takes a good while before you can get rid of your old ideas, they might never completely go away.

That doesn't mean it's impossible.

 

But in order to have a healthy relationship between your wife and your family, these things need to be discussed, openly, and without resentment.

The pus needs to be drained before the wound can be disinfected and heal cleanly.

(Pro-tip! don't accuse, don't go, "you do" or "I think" but express how you feel. how you feel is never wrong. Make clear that you're nobody's enemy. After all you must love them very much if you're willing to work through a difficult problem)

The end result might be that your family decides they want nothing to do with your wife. But they shouldn't make you choose between them. It's not their decision who you can and cannot love. That's the bottom line.

 

Even if you talk things out, you can't force your family and your wife to like eachother, and they don't have to. But they should respect each other and your relationships with them.

Edited December 21, 2012 by JFSOCC

[BBMorti]

I would be disappointed if my dad was making issues out of things as small as the wine conversation.. making a problem out of things as small as that is a choice more than anything, imo.

 

I hope you don't let the kids become losers or an element in this, it sounds like a horrible frustrating situation but they are innocent, and often times, much of the glue that keeps families together.

I wish I had great advice to give, but you and many of the posters here simply have a grander experience with untying the knots that can happen within families.

Edited December 21, 2012 by BBMorti

[Hurlshort]

Wow, these are some great responses guys (and LC ). This community really just continues to amaze me. I appreciate all your insights and perspectives, and it really did make me feel better to read them this morning.

 

You folks convinced me to switch gears on the presents issue.

 

I think it is important to get to the point where I am accepting the situation and not having nightmares, and I believe you all have helped me toward that. If it comes down to choosing family or my wife, I barely even consider it a choice. I'll stick by my wife's side all the way. She does have her flaws, we all do, but she's also an amazing women, mother, wife, and teacher who gives herself fully to everything she does.

 

Oh, and she was a showgirl

 

Seriously, I didn't post this just to brag about that

[melkathi]

As a quick break from work (last day is getting hectic) I'd just like to add a small commet on your last post (and if I find time I'll PM you a bigger post ).

Your wife is a teacher? Perhaps a different insight might help your parents then. My mother is a teacher, my father is a professor and everyone they know is one or the other. What my experience is from growing up in this whole education environment is that people get used to their role and have trouble to switch it off outside work. They don't even realize that they are still in teacher mode or are entering teacher mode. It's taken me a long time to smile through some family or friends of family moments without getting seriously annoyed.

If your wife teaches 8 year olds for example (or whatever class she teaches, it hardly makes a difference), she spends hours every day being the one who by default has to explain things, has to know things better and has to have the experience. She is daily in an environment where she is expected to know everything and admitting ignorance on a subject may not really be an option.

For us non-educators, that attitude can be quite a challenge in a social context. But it helps realizing that it's part of how the job shapes people and it doesn't mean they are arogant or do not value others.

 

Then again you are a teacher too, if I remember correctly?

Then I am just typing stuff you probably know

But it may help your family get over the resentment.

[Gfted1]

IMO, you should just cut them loose. Everyone has already dug in and unless you wife "changes", which is a completely unreasonable position to take, nothing is going to improve. Also their sanctimonious attitude is really irritating.

 

Dont involve the kids.

[Malcador]

Why not let your wife read that letter ? Does concern her after all. But yeah seems both sides here are pretty well dug in. Still let them send your kids presents though, involving them in the fight just leads to idiocy like in my extended family where problems sisters have gets passed on to their kids - so for example I wouldn't be upset if a chunk of my aunts or cousins died or got injured, etc.

[Hurlshort]

Just as a side note, I suggested family counseling or therapy, where we could sit down and discuss this stuff with a third party. My parents declined. My current plan is to just give it time, I'll take their calls if they want to talk, but I'm going to try and stop thinking about it so much. Thanks again for everyone's feedback, it really does help.

[Calax]

Yay for less than dime store psycology!

 

Hope I wasn't reading to much into that one letter.

[kalimeeri]

This sounds like the basic problem is acceptance... when it's compounded by distance and time, it's nearly impossible to overcome if there are limited opportunities to do so (visits are only occasional). I see myself in much the same situation with my own extended family--but IMO in my case it's a lost cause; it's 30 years too late and several thousand miles too far away to change in this lifetime. That was my choice and my solution; and while I still wish it could have been different, every effort is doomed to failure if only one party is willing to forgive.

Your wife seems to be trying very hard to engage with them for your sake, but your extended family is an allied front who are not accepting the gesture for what it is, but rather analyzing/seizing on specific words or phrases, which they can then discuss among themselves at their leisure after you've left. They are not going to stop, and telling them to will only cause you to seem defensive and generate more hard feelings. FWIW, my own suggestions are that you should forget about it--it is an issue and makes you feel very awkward, but poking at it will make it all the worse. Don't play their game! Perhaps you and your wife might limit yourselves to more listening than participating in discussions, but beyond that... Just be who you are ... accept who they are (warts and all), visit when you can, enjoy your time, and forget the rest. Maybe in time they will learn to do the same, but if not... Life's too short, and hard enough without worrying yourselves over family drama.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Wow, these are some great responses guys (and LC ). This community really just continues to amaze me. I appreciate all your insights and perspectives, and it really did make me feel better to read them this morning.

 

You folks convinced me to switch gears on the presents issue.

 

I think it is important to get to the point where I am accepting the situation and not having nightmares, and I believe you all have helped me toward that. If it comes down to choosing family or my wife, I barely even consider it a choice. I'll stick by my wife's side all the way. She does have her flaws, we all do, but she's also an amazing women, mother, wife, and teacher who gives herself fully to everything she does.

 

Oh, and she was a showgirl

 

Seriously, I didn't post this just to brag about that

 

Honestly it sounds like there is much more to their dislike for your wife than they're ready to admit. Many of the issues seem superficial, so they're most likely not the real reasons for the existing friction. Either that, or those are simply the sort of complaints people draw up when they don't like someone in general, but have nothing concrete to hold against them. Most likely both parties have an instinctive dislike and distrust of each other, but since they're not going to verbalize it, its grows the existing rift and makes social gatherings awkward.

 

Its hard to see why they wouldn't all be able to get along if that was the totality of their complaints toward her. It would be unwise for this situation to back you into having to make choices, when for your sake, both parties owe it to you to keep their relationships civil. You should remind them of that and refrain from hasty decisions, if they managed 10 years they can do another 10 just as easy.

 

And don't get defensive about your wife just because she's your wife and you love her. She should be able to resolve the matter herself in a frank and open conversation, (as should they) so the actual parties can settle their differences between themselves and not use you as a place to vent their frustration. A private lunch with you as the mediator should sort those differences out. Although if you're going to get so uptight about a few complaints and are unable to keep a cool head that might not be the best choice.

 

The "meeting" should not be held now when everyone is uptight, but after a little while. The potential for it to blow up in everyone's face is at its highest at the moment.

Edited December 21, 2012 by Drowsy Emperor

[Blarghagh]

Just as a side note, I suggested family counseling or therapy, where we could sit down and discuss this stuff with a third party. My parents declined. My current plan is to just give it time, I'll take their calls if they want to talk, but I'm going to try and stop thinking about it so much. Thanks again for everyone's feedback, it really does help.

 

Interesting that they declined. In my experience that generally means that they don't want to deal with their problems and are instead trying to coax you into removing them (in this case your wife) for them. I may be jumping the gun there though - I have no patience for this kind of thing.