I demand no tutorial.

[anubite]

Do you want to play Zelda: Wind Waker that umpteenth time? No? How about Twilight Princess? No? Skyward Sword? ...No?

 

All three of these games, love them or hate them, have pretty much a forced 30+ minute opening segment of cutscenes and nonsense before you finally get your sword. This hurts replayability and it also makes your first experience with the game kind of... "unintense".

 

Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask either have skippable cutscenes, or you can quickly get your sword and get on with it. You only need 40 rupees to "start the game" for Ocarina of Time and although one might find being deku form annoying for the beginning of MM, you still get to play. That's something.

 

I am utterly tired of "cinematic" games.

 

I don't mind if you guys implement a how-to or a tutorial of some kind, but it should be completely optional.

 

I also think it would greatly benefit the game if you could start it out "en media res". Don't start out PE with some long cutscene - just start the game. Get us into the thick of the story from the start. Don't make us sit through a chore. And don't say, "Well, you can skip it!" I don't want to skip the story. But I also want to play the game.

 

Make the story interactive. If you want to give us exposition as soon as the game starts, have the player discover the exposition. Have them seek it out. Don't make us the passive observer.

 

I'm not making this post under the influence of this video, but it pretty much points out partially what I'm trying to say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM

Edited November 18, 2012 by anubite

[Kaz]

Upvoted for posting one of my favorite videos on youtube.

[Dream]

Second best sidescroller I ever played (best was the PSP remake where you get to play as Vile).

 

On topic; yea straight up tutorial levels are a bit annoying.

[Ieo]

See: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60597-in-game-tutorial/

[GhoulishVisage]

The best way to do a Tutorial for Project Eternity would be to build a small separate scenario where you play a predetermined character with one or two predetermined companions for the 30 minutes of the tutorial's duration.

This scenario can construct a little bit of back-story for a an area of the game.

This back story should preferably be non-essential or filled in in the main campaign as well.

This scenario could be anything from some characters defending a castle under siege to some characters leading a raid on a bandit camp or investigating reports of a group of necromancers.

(I quite like that last one myself since necromancers are not necessarily evil in PE's world, and it could introduce the player to the thematic elements of the world and some of the more morally grey conflicts taking place.)

 

This scenario should be separately selectable from the game's menu or from the character creation screen.

 

This will achieve several things:

1.) Make an interesting tutorial that is not a labor to play

2.) Set the tone of the world

3.) Sets up the story of a section of the game world in an interesting and engaging manner

4.) Allows for a tutorial that does not have to be replayed to get the story

5.) Allows for a tutorial that does not have to be played at all to get the story

 

 

I'd prefer it if Obsidian managed to avoid the problems that CDPR encountered with Witcher 2, where players complained that mechanics and gameplay were not explained properly.

CDPR has since rectified this situation by making a more informative introduction sequence.

Edited November 18, 2012 by GhoulishVisage

[Karranthain]

The way it was done in BG2 was the best, I think. It was a small module, seperate from the game where you could (but didn't have to) learn the ropes.

 

It wouldn't hurt if that little sequence served as an introduction to the world of PE, as per GhoulishVisage's suggestion.

[Tagaziel]

How about we simply make it optional, like in Starcraft?

[Sacred_Path]

no tutorial, but a starting area that makes you play with the UI and allows you to learn the basic mechanics

[motorizer]

I hope the starting area is different depending on your race/class....that would be the most replayable...and no one has said the mysterious event has to be in a set location

[Labadal]

They can make it completely optional like they did it in Neverwinter Nights 2.

[Kore]

Fetch and carry for 45 minutes makes me sad.

[TMTVL]

How did IE games do it? I only remember BG2 had a seperate tut which was pretty cool. PS:T didn't have a tutorial but it wasn't really about the gameplay anyway. I don't remember how BG and IWD did it.

[Kore]

I hope the starting area is different depending on your race/class....that would be the most replayable...and no one has said the mysterious event has to be in a set location

 

Yes. I often get bored of chateaux irenicus before I even make it out, so yes to that, but don't make it like DA:O did and force me to a choke point every time I want to try out a new character. Whats the point in forcing me to spend 30 minutes or so with little actual gameplay? It's fine the first playthrough, but once you know that story bit it becomes drawn out and tedious.

 

On topic of the thread, I too don't want to have to spend ages fetching and carrying, but I don't ever want to be confused about how to play. The tutorial in BG2 did this well imo. The tutorial didn't worry about giving it a sub plot, it was straight to the point and got the job done and then when you wanted to play the game you could dive straight in. If they force you to a short story of its own and that unnecessarily lengthens the time it takes to learn the basics of the UI and how the game works then that is wasted time on my part.

[ogrezilla]

separate tutorial in the menu please. BG2 and ToEE both did this.

Edited November 18, 2012 by ogrezilla

[Kore]

How did IE games do it? I only remember BG2 had a seperate tut which was pretty cool. PS:T didn't have a tutorial but it wasn't really about the gameplay anyway. I don't remember how BG and IWD did it.

 

They didn't have one, it took me until about my 3rd playthrough to work out how to disarm traps on BG1. They both had fetch and carry levels though and BG1 let you practice killing monsters in a safe environment.

[Dermi]

How did IE games do it? I only remember BG2 had a seperate tut which was pretty cool. PS:T didn't have a tutorial but it wasn't really about the gameplay anyway. I don't remember how BG and IWD did it.

 

They didn't have one (...)

Of course they did, at least BG1. Whole Candlekep area was one big tutorial.

[JFSOCC]

sequelitis is awesome, it's a shame he hasn't posted for a while

[BBMorti]

Oh look, another thread with someone demanding things in PE.

 

**** will hit the fan when this game is finally released and the swarms of people not having the game cut exactly after *their* demands see the result.

[JFSOCC]

Oh look, another thread with someone demanding things in PE.

 

**** will hit the fan when this game is finally released and the swarms of people not having the game cut exactly after *their* demands see the result.

So the word-choice isn't ideal. This is a discussion forum and so far discussion has been pretty good. Obviously this forum functions as a type of barometer for the developers to take inspiration from, not copy directly. If you disagree with OP, argue the point.

[Kore]

How did IE games do it? I only remember BG2 had a seperate tut which was pretty cool. PS:T didn't have a tutorial but it wasn't really about the gameplay anyway. I don't remember how BG and IWD did it.

 

They didn't have one (...)

Of course they did, at least BG1. Whole Candlekep area was one big tutorial.

 

Well not really... It didn't teach you how to pick locks, find traps or the basics of combat. I guess the tutors were sort of a tutorial now that I think about it... Fine I'll semi concede this point That said I'd still much rather have the tutorial follow the BG2 format than BG1

[Jojobobo]

Arcanum didn't use a tutorial, and it was fine. As long as the UI is intuitive, I don't see why there necessarily must be one. Maybe have a more simplistic starting area so you can aclimatise to the game, but having text boxes spring up telling you precisely what to do is a bit trite.

 

EDIT: Or if they must have a tutorial, have a way that it is easily bypassed. For example if the tutorial was set in a tunnel, show the player right at the end once they've played through the entire area once that there was a hidden passage they could have used from the start to bypass the whole thing.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Jojobobo

[BBMorti]

Oh look, another thread with someone demanding things in PE.

 

**** will hit the fan when this game is finally released and the swarms of people not having the game cut exactly after *their* demands see the result.

So the word-choice isn't ideal. This is a discussion forum and so far discussion has been pretty good. Obviously this forum functions as a type of barometer for the developers to take inspiration from, not copy directly. If you disagree with OP, argue the point.

It is not presented as a topic of discussion, but as a demand. I have no disagreement with skipping tutorial, as I never use such, but that is irrelevant to my critique.

[PsychoBlonde]

Ugh, I don't know where to start explaining what's wrong with this idea. Well, here goes.

 

Do you want to play Zelda: Wind Waker that umpteenth time? No? How about Twilight Princess? No? Skyward Sword? ...No?

 

I have no interest in playing these games even once.

 

All three of these games, love them or hate them, have pretty much a forced 30+ minute opening segment of cutscenes and nonsense before you finally get your sword. This hurts replayability and it also makes your first experience with the game kind of... "unintense".

 

What do *cut scenes* have to do with whether or not there is a *tutorial*?

 

Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask either have skippable cutscenes, or you can quickly get your sword and get on with it. You only need 40 rupees to "start the game" for Ocarina of Time and although one might find being deku form annoying for the beginning of MM, you still get to play. That's something.

 

Where is the word "tutorial" in here? What does this have to do with a *tutorial*?

 

I am utterly tired of "cinematic" games.

 

I'm detecting a trend here . . .

 

I don't mind if you guys implement a how-to or a tutorial of some kind, but it should be completely optional.

 

OMG actually mentioned the tutorial. So what's your rationale behind this? In most of the games I have played, it made little difference whether the initial easy zone was optional or not--it was short enough that I'd voluntarily play it through even if it was possible to skip it, as in Neverwinter Nights 2. The game always felt a bit weird if I didn't. Plus, I got a free cloak.

 

I also think it would greatly benefit the game if you could start it out "en media res". Don't start out PE with some long cutscene - just start the game. Get us into the thick of the story from the start. Don't make us sit through a chore. And don't say, "Well, you can skip it!" I don't want to skip the story. But I also want to play the game.

 

It's "In medias res". This is a narrative technique which has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not there is an opening cinematic sequence. You can have games that start you out in medias res via cinematics. This is all about delivery of story exposition and not about whether you can control your character right away, in fact, just setting the player down with direct control over their character tends to militate AGAINST this approach because it will not be a simple matter to deliver a stream of unexplained uncontextual exposition to someone who is still figuring out how to get from one side of the room to the other. It virtually guarantees that there will be a slow progression of initial exposition as the player fumbles their way from one point of interest to the next.

 

 

Make the story interactive. If you want to give us exposition as soon as the game starts, have the player discover the exposition. Have them seek it out. Don't make us the passive observer.

 

Which means the opening section is going to involve a lot of fumbling around, i.e. be a tutorial. An opening cinematic or narration is not a *tutorial*. A tutorial is an in-game section that either explicitly teaches you or at the very least gives you a little "easy" environment where you can experiment with the controls and gameplay mechanics to get a handle on how the game operates before they throw you in the pit with the giant tiger-bear and expect you to fight for your life.

[Wulfic]

I actually loved the tutorial from Baldur's gate 1. I enjoyed walking around Candlekeep and doing stuff. But it should optional because if someone wants to replay the game he would be forced to play again a rather slow paced fragment of the game. But I like tutorials I play in every game all tutorials if available.

[Nonek]

I really liked the tutorial in Temple of Elemental Evil, sometimes boot it up now and again just for fun. Would be fun to meet tutorial guy later as an npc or companion.