Update #30: How Stuff is Made

[Blu3Fr0G]

Nice, honest and interesting update. I´ve feared some people might complain "oh, this is the stuff we already know," but I never really saw somebody to flesh out making of game so clearly and honestly. Definitely informative, I´ve enjoyed that.

[Falkon Swiftblade]

I found it interesting that the design slice is much larger. It left me wondering which part of the slice is the biggest contributor to the cost? Is it because this requires development of a whole new game system, or that this is a new setting needs to be fleshed out and integrated? Perhaps both?

 

I believe a large reason this was such a big chunk is they are designing a new intellectual property from scratch, so they'll need more time compared to a game like Madden, which basically just gets tweaked each year. They have to design everything from combat rules, to npc's, non combat and other game systems. Remember it's an entirely new system, not based upon D&D or Fallout etc.

[Jymm]

If I had known kickstarting this game would net me an update a week on how you are actually building the game, I would have given you more money! This has been a great addition to the experience and I hope you can keep it up. Giving the fans who funded your game even 1/10th of the information you would normally have to provide to your publisher is still way more than we would generally ever get to see.

 

As for all of us forumites second guessing their budgets I'm sure they just read it and chuckle. We trusted them with $4 million dollars. Surely we believe they know how to staff a project. (Bugs do suck though, so I understand the hand-wringing.)

[Galomtala]

If I had known kickstarting this game would net me an update a week on how you are actually building the game, I would have given you more money!

 

You can still donate via PayPal

[Cantousent]

As I understand it, you can not only upgrade your tier, but even if you can't, there's still stuff you can get from Obsidz ranging from the cards to the t-shirts. I know that I'm thinking about getting more add-on stuff.

[Theobeau]

As a long time gamer I've only recently become interested in the meta of gaming: what constitutes a "good" game, what makes computer gaming unique, is it art ?, whither gaming commentary and criticism (Doritos and Mountain Dew anyone?) and the mechanics of how games are made.

 

While a lot of this may already be known to the hard core gaming community it was quite an enlightening post for this reader and kudos to OBS for giving the wider KS community an idea of how much planning and effort goes into making a quality game.

 

The nitty gritty is obviously much much more than having talented programmers, writers and an great idea. The logistics of marshalling every one into coherent teams and having skilled producers who can get these teams working together sounds quite challenging though it appears OBS have got a very good handle on Project Eternity.

 

Thanks for a very interesting post!

[AwesomeOcelot]

I don't see much of value in this update apart from the charts and how projects scale. The job titles are self-explanatory, and the staff needed are pretty obvious.

 

Just wondering, if you are using Unity, then what do your engine programmers do ?

Do they modify Unity itself ?

 

Yes, Unity doesn't have a lot of systems required for a RPG. Unity might need to be modified as well.

[bahamut_gundam]

Just wondering, if you are using Unity, then what do your engine programmers do ?

Do they modify Unity itself ?

 

They still code lots, but a lot of the structure and framework would have been done for them. When I went to College, one thing that made our game dev degree different from other colleges offering similar degrees, was the game dev kids coded their engine from scratch, and didn't use things like Unreal or Unity to code with. I think this has helped them get better jobs as a result because even though everyone primarily codes in C or C++, there's lots of ways to get to x, and when you use something like Unity, you sacrifice some of that control, but Unity is great for allowing teams to add and modify bits and bobs along the way, so I don't see it hurting things.

 

Sounds great to me. I'm just wondering if the engine programmers will modify bits of Unity itself, or if they will have their own "framework" on top of Unity.

 

By the way, can you share some reasons why you are using Unity instead of Unreal, or even your previous game engines ?

I'll wait if you are going to share that in the next update of the game

[norolim]

Nice update. Good stuff

[Hero__2]

Hi, i have a question : When i can say which Add-On's i will like to have for my money. I have support this game with 20$ but i have pay 40$, so i get the Add-on too. but when i where i must say that.

 

Ps.: Nice Update. :D

 

MFG

[Lurky]

This was a really interesting update. Very informative

 

I would also like to show my support for more updates like this, showing the process of game development from this perspective. Anecdotes are nice, but they're better told when the game has already been released, IMHO.

[LadyCrimson]

I don't see much of value in this update apart from the charts and how projects scale. The job titles are self-explanatory, and the staff needed are pretty obvious.

At least they're communicating and being open. Not everyone knows how these things get split up and stuff, already. And hey, those pie-charts are awesome!

[Labadal]

Hi, i have a question : When i can say which Add-On's i will like to have for my money. I have support this game with 20$ but i have pay 40$, so i get the Add-on too. but when i where i must say that.

 

Ps.: Nice Update. :D

 

MFG

 

You'll get an e-mail when they have everything set up.

[Cantousent]

I've found ways to enjoy every update. Sure, some updates interest me more than others, and some aspects of the process interest me more also, but I read every response in every update. I like to interact with other fans/backers and and I want to see what others think. There were people who really wanted to get some idea of how Obsidz budgeted the project and what different devs do. Just because one particular update doesn't interest you doesn't mean that there's not something in it to add to the experience. On top of that, you can look at the updates as individual parts of a larger whole or maybe even pieces of a large puzzle. Look at one by itself and it might not mean much, but take them altogether and we're getting a bird's eye view of how the process works without the filter of a publisher.

 

In this update, I think it's really cool to see folks who don't always get as much credit have some love thrown their way. From what I understand, QA folks don't tend to get paid a ton of money and they definitely work hard. At the end of the project, all of these folks, QA, producers, designers, programmers and the lot, will be working long, hard, and hectic hours trying to nail down problems, polish off content, and get the whole game set to ship. So, for my part, I appreciate all these little updates, from the kinda cool updates that give us a generalized broad view to the aspect specific updates that nit-pic live instrumentation in the musical score.

[Dangermouth]

The Extra Credits demo video was interesting. Basically, there are too many crap games made.

[Hornet85]

I love pie charts

[Hormalakh]

found this to be interesting...

 

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/the-pre-production-problem

 

if you haven't noticed by my activity throughout the boards. i'm watching all of these and posting them where they're relevant. I thnik they're awesome and definitely encourage others who are interested in watching them.

[eleventhirtyeight]

Yay design!

 

But seriously, those pie charts make me all excited.

[EarlOfPrunes]

Sorry, I'm going to dig into something boring, but I don't think it's been touched yet.

 

The biggest reduction in the pie chart is in the production department. It looks like over half of that piece is gone. Based on the description I take this to mean project management. Is this reduction due to the fact that there isn't the overhead of a production company like EA, or does that simply mean the folks in charge of production have more on their plate? If it's the latter that brings me to worry are they spread too thin.

 

In my life in the corporate programming world (as much as that might apply) I've seen both managed vs unmanaged projects, and while unmanaged is generally much more enjoyable the product either has a lot more bugs or the timeline falls off the cliff as someone wanders off the path. Say creating a feature that isn't fully fleshed out causing the gaming experience to be less than stellar. I see that overall quality really is a function of the project manager as well the qa's if he/she/it is doing their job.

 

An example of a problem game is Elemental: War of Magic one of the big things they contributed to the fact the game was steaming pile of something and bugs was the fact they weren't using enterprise standards/project management. Since I had hopes for that game, and have hopes for this one I'd hate to see obsidian follow Stardock's mistakes.

 

It is very much a balancing act where process and administration can overwhelm to the point it's counterproductive. Also the PM can't be pushing for an arbitrary date, or that just creates more problems.

 

Considering the limited amount of data from a pie chart and the experience of the team all this might (or probably) has already been considered thoroughly. However, due to the scope of any crpg, this game in particular, I think properly implemented project management is essential.

[CommonOddity]

Fantastic breakdown and post.

 

@AwesomeOcelot

 

Moar hipster remarks, plz. That is what the world needs. Were you to muster together a handful of brain cells to throw at this post, you would realize that an adequate amount of planning and careful deliberation is being invested into PE- which is exactly what a AAA quality title needs. The extra credit video hosted on PA speaks for itself and addresses the issue adequately.

 

No. Seriously... It's a major issue.

 

Or would you rather prefer the strong and silent approach? Duke nukem forever that's been baking for a decade+ (and revealed very little aside for a handful of screenshots before the release) definitely speaks in volumes about the pitfalls of such an approach. I enjoyed the game myself, but can fully appreciate and unfortunately recognize the plethora of bugs and quirks it is littered with. Carrying two weapons at a time I think plagues many a fora to this day...

 

Hurray for the pie charts. Huzzah for KEEPING IN TOUCH WITH THE COMMUNITY FROM DAY ONE. Such efforts should be lauded, not met with offhanded remarks from people that can't see the bigger picture and feign understanding.

[Hormalakh]

Sorry, I'm going to dig into something boring, but I don't think it's been touched yet.

 

The biggest reduction in the pie chart is in the production department. It looks like over half of that piece is gone. Based on the description I take this to mean project management. Is this reduction due to the fact that there isn't the overhead of a production company like EA, or does that simply mean the folks in charge of production have more on their plate? If it's the latter that brings me to worry are they spread too thin.

 

In my life in the corporate programming world (as much as that might apply) I've seen both managed vs unmanaged projects, and while unmanaged is generally much more enjoyable the product either has a lot more bugs or the timeline falls off the cliff as someone wanders off the path. Say creating a feature that isn't fully fleshed out causing the gaming experience to be less than stellar. I see that overall quality really is a function of the project manager as well the qa's if he/she/it is doing their job.

 

An example of a problem game is Elemental: War of Magic one of the big things they contributed to the fact the game was steaming pile of something and bugs was the fact they weren't using enterprise standards/project management. Since I had hopes for that game, and have hopes for this one I'd hate to see obsidian follow Stardock's mistakes.

 

It is very much a balancing act where process and administration can overwhelm to the point it's counterproductive. Also the PM can't be pushing for an arbitrary date, or that just creates more problems.

 

Considering the limited amount of data from a pie chart and the experience of the team all this might (or probably) has already been considered thoroughly. However, due to the scope of any crpg, this game in particular, I think properly implemented project management is essential.

 

I think this is because the team for this game is going to be kept as small as possible.

[Ranath]

They still code lots, but a lot of the structure and framework would have been done for them. When I went to College, one thing that made our game dev degree different from other colleges offering similar degrees, was the game dev kids coded their engine from scratch, and didn't use things like Unreal or Unity to code with. I think this has helped them get better jobs as a result because even though everyone primarily codes in C or C++, there's lots of ways to get to x, and when you use something like Unity, you sacrifice some of that control, but Unity is great for allowing teams to add and modify bits and bobs along the way, so I don't see it hurting things.

 

Unity supports C#, a flavor of Python and Java via AOTC. (That's ahead-of-time-compilation.) External plugins are likely to be written in Mono C#.

 

"C" is a low level language usually used for systems programming, it doesn't support classes or objects or even strings natively. You wouldn't write a game in C unless you were a masochistic coder or you planned to run on bare metal. (Without an operating system.) "C++" is for the most part used as a library language, it's great for things like 3D engines and OS boiler plate code. Because of the manual memory management in C++, I suspect it's used more often in console games. The newer and higher level languages are better for applications as they allow rapid iteration on code an have expansive libraries for things like image compression, XML, modeling, codecs, etc.

 

It's not 1992 anymore and things have evolved past C/C++.

If I remember correctly they said they would stick to C# for the Unity programming.

Am a leedle bit sad that that means no Boo (just for the coolness factor of Hamstercode)

[Gorth]

The biggest reduction in the pie chart is in the production department. It looks like over half of that piece is gone. Based on the description I take this to mean project management. Is this reduction due to the fact that there isn't the overhead of a production company like EA, or does that simply mean the folks in charge of production have more on their plate? If it's the latter that brings me to worry are they spread too thin.

 

My experience with project managers is also mostly in a corporate, project oriented environment, but I'm not sure the production guys in games development are a 1:1 translation of the role. Seems like the manage communication, schedules and stuff like that alright, but they also deal with a lot of "external" things, like coordinating stuff with external supplies, like contractors, voice actors, recording studios, whatever. Project leads sounds more like the guys who have the clout to make decisions and call the shots when stuff needs to be cut, changed or the whip cracked to make people hurry up and meet their scheduled targets.

 

Would be interesting to observe a typical workday in the office

[Aedelric]

Looks like you guys at Obsidian have your priorities right, nothing to worry about. Not that any of us were worrying, I for one have complete faith.

[Hassat Hunter]

Nothing new for most of us here. But I suppose many KS backers aren't that hardcore as us, so they would get some new info from that. Aside from the chart, which helps everyone .

 

Also, if digging deeper into the roles in future upgrades, it makes sense to start at the basics first.

 

Considering the amount (here and on KS) of questioning on QA I would suppose doing that one first would be best. It seems to be the one most ponder about and do not know the exact meaning, somehow. Information could include how they work (not 'playtesting'), why it's not always due to QA if a game is buggy (rushing, deadlines, only high priority fixes in the end etc.), their growing slice during production (much larger in the end), the how-and-what of day 0 patches (even if PE wont have that) and there's probably a whole lot more to think about than I just said there and can recall as things to clarify to the masses...