Abandoned big cities

[szelbisz]

I've always been annoyed (in games in general) by those supposedly big/huge cities that look like they are abandoned. There's almost no people on the streets. I think BG2 tried to address this issue by adding some "crowd" sounds during day time in cities and in taverns. I'm not saying it didnt work out but i still missed these background people. But could a game engine be able to support a lot of npc's in a city sector/district ? Or maybe just make them a part of an animated background that has tons of people moving here and there, doing their everyday chores. But then i would probably still like to talk with them all What do you guys think ? Or maybe i ask for too much ?

[Lysen]

I thought this thread is about abandoned cities that player can encounter. You know, it would be cool if you find a really big and totally abandoned city in the jungle, for example.

[Rink]

I agree that cities should have people in them. But I also like it, if those people that have nothing of relevance to say are named accordingly like in BG. So you do not have to run after guys that run around in the city and have nothing to say to you anyway.

I don't think that is going to be a problem to be "animated", since it wasn't a problem 10 years ago.

 

Abandoned city in the jungle: sure! Doesn't have to be one of the two big cities in the game though

Edited November 7, 2012 by Rink

[Brannart]

I thought this thread is about abandoned cities that player can encounter. You know, it would be cool if you find a really big and totally abandoned city in the jungle, for example.

 

I was thinking more like Medieval Beijing after Genghis Khan was done with it.

[Hellfell]

I guess it's not too hard to periodically spawn various unclickable npcs who go from one part of the map to another along major roads.

[NerdBoner]

I'd like cities to be lively...

 

I remember playing a glorious little NWN mod by the name of Almraven...the city in that mod was one of the most "alive" and well designed cities i've ever seen even in professional games.

 

Also, The original Witcher (Vizima) was a good example. People going to work, to restaurants and bars, visitng friends and family etc. Just going about their lives adds so much to a player's immersion.

 

it also makes planning robberies and missions more interesting since you have to take into account the peoples schedules.

[nikolokolus]

For a city to feel alive, it's usually got a lot more to do with activity level instead of just raw numbers. And I'm not just talking about the obvious stuff like smiths hammering on an anvil and hawkers barking.

 

It's probably beyond the scope of their budget, but I'd love to see guys playing cards outside of a shop, people casually leaning against walls, people stooping to inspect a vendor's wares, actual haggling (gesticulating, shaking their heads, etc.) Little touches added to posture and animations beyond people standing around like wooden statues.

 

There doesn't really need to be a lot of written or spoken dialogue (beyond the low level din and chatter tracks typically pieced together) but if a game can get some of these little touches integrated it can really make an environment "pop."

[Hormalakh]

One thing I wish they'd do with NPCs that have nothing of value, is that they continue about their day without stopping and opening up a dialogue box. Something like "I'm too busy to talk right now" and then they just keep moving.

[Hertzila]

If they'd really want to make the big cities feel lively, they could take a page from the Hitman: Blood Money. In one level, there's a parade going on and there are NPCs everywhere in the main roads. Literally. You weave through them and in general you can't do much with them but it really did give it a bustling feel when pretty much every square metre has like four NPCs in it.

Or Assassin's Creed, where small to moderately sized chunks of random NPCs wander aimlessly before stopping somewhere to shop or talk. Add in a time-based modifier that removes the amount of those chunks when night starts to creep in and you can somewhat simulate city life.

 

Something like that might be a bit too much for this game but having random people walk around in the streets as a mass in Hitman's or Assassin's Creed's style would help with the big city feel.

Edited November 7, 2012 by Hertzila

[kabaliero]

Yes to crowded big cities.

 

PS:T had this somewhat covered.

[Michael_Galt]

I am not really for this. I mean, unless you live in a vertical city like New York, you typically don't see a lot of people out and about, because they are working (whether that is inside a building, or out in the field, in the woods, in the sea). Weekends off wasn't really a common thing until this last 100 years or so. People might have taken the Sabbath off, but that was the exception, rather than the rule. And that obviously doesn't encompass a huge proportion of the world's population. I don't know if there is the equivalent in Hinduism or Buddhism, but I don't think there is...

 

I would prefer people are just intelligently populated. Meaning, I go into a market place during midday, and there are people wandering about the stalls/shops. I go into a pub at night and there are people, but not many midday. I go to the docks and there are always people. Having homes that tend to be populated at night versus the day would be great too. Those people don't necessarily have to be "findable" in the city, as maybe they don't work anywhere of significance to you, the player.

[Hassat Hunter]

^ Good.

 

I think BG, BG2 and PS:T did fine in this regard, so see no issues for PE.

 

Also thought this thread would be about abandoned cities. I wouldn't mind having a big ghost town, fully intact. Rather than the ruins you find. Heck, it might not even be hostile at all. Just a regular city. Except, everyone is dead (not in the undead "I kill you!" kind of way). With all the issues that gives .

[Thangorodrim]

Well, since we are going to have 2 cities because of the stretch goals maybe they could make a story element about this ... one city could be less crowded because it is in decline and not fully populated (they could have the city be somewhat in disrepair) or maybe it could be suffering from a disease or curse ... the other could be the newer booming city ...

 

I like the idea of a ruined city as well ... it would be great if it was a large city and populated with wild animals and various monsters

[prometheusbound]

Sigil in Torment was a pretty compelling "alive" city, even with the plethora of un-named, generic NPCs. The Ultima games features really well done, organic, living large cities. Both of these games preceded elaborate 3d graphics. Given Project: Eternity's focus, I think this is a feature we can actually look forward to.

[rjshae]

Maybe they need to build some slow-moving human 'swarms'?

[Boof]

I don't want too much clutter, having good lively ambient sounds in the background is good enough.

 

"If your parents don't buy you a pointy stick they don't love you!"

[Jymm]

I can't say this is a dealbreaker, but if we are making wishlists then cities that feel inhabited would be on mine. There are supposed to be 2 big cities in game. Very often even "big" cities in crpgs are filled with maybe 50 people, tops? If we can get plenty of extras on the scene as mute, uninteresting NPCs going about their lives then I can only imagine that would help with the vibe of a living city.

 

One issue I can think of though is trying to make clear to the player which NPCs are useful / interesting and which are just scenery. A lot of obvious ways to do this come across as gamey and would ruin any immersion gain from having more NPCs on the streets.

[TrashMan]

I really don't think it should be obvious which is which.

 

Games tend to have the PC behave in very unrealistic ways:

- breaking in peoples houses and stealing things

- talking to everyone in an effort to find quests

- takign redicolous risks (because savegame)

etc..

[AGX-17]

I don't see any reason why there can't be swarms of NPCs who just don't give a **** what you're looking for. What are we talking, dozens? hundreds? thousands? The more there are, the more "alive" the city will feel, but at the same time once you get close to the hundreds you can't expect anything but a randomly chosen canned response from 90% of those NPCs. Not on a technical basis, but on the human limitations of the game's writers. If you've got your writing team devoted to complex dialogue trees for all 600 NPCs in your super city, you've got an entire writing team not writing quests, companions and the main narrative.

Edited November 8, 2012 by AGX-17

[Hassat Hunter]

I hardly want 50 people in the street, and 1 only having a quest, and all named.

 

The BG/PS:T way of just naming random people "commoner", "wealthy man" etc. worked. You could still talk to them for banter. But the real interesting people had names.

[mcmanusaur]

I thought this thread is about abandoned cities that player can encounter. You know, it would be cool if you find a really big and totally abandoned city in the jungle, for example.

NOPE. Why would you want this? "Oh, wow look at all the work the devs put into making this building, but too bad this abandoned city will never see the light of day!"

Edited November 8, 2012 by mcmanusaur

[Monte Carlo]

More NPCs in the streets equals more XP when I open up on them with fireballs, right?

[Brannart]

I thought this thread is about abandoned cities that player can encounter. You know, it would be cool if you find a really big and totally abandoned city in the jungle, for example.

NOPE. Why would you want this? "Oh, wow look at all the work the devs put into making this building, but too bad this abandoned city will never see the light of day!"

 

Because it would be filled with monsters and treasure and stuff.

[Hassat Hunter]

S.T.A.L.K.E.R anyone?

 

Exactly...

[.Leif.]

Let the crowdedness of an area depend on the centrality of it compared with the rest of the polis and the time of day. I feel more NPCs in big cities are necessary. We don't need a life-story from all of them. It'd be alright to be reminded to "Bugger off" if we keep pressing folks for quest-tips they can't give.