Unofficial P.E. Relationship/Romance Thread pt. 3

[Morality Games]

I do not believe your reading of his statement takes into account the context in which it was answered, the phrasing he used or past statements/products by Obsidian.

 

I mostly see it as repudiation of Bioware for misusing romance as a narrative device. Not a definitive statement on whether Obsidian will make use of the device in some way or will actively avoid it in anyway it can.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Morality Games

[Joukehainen]

A topic that seems to come up frequently and inspires a lot of heartfelt debate.

 

Heheh.

 

Geddit, guys? "Heartfelt." Heheheh.

[Zu Long]

He said they were an "easy target" and other relationships were more interesting. Sawyer has stated they should be extremely well implemented or not done at all.

 

These are not neutral statements.

 

These guys don't want angsty teen conceptions of love in their game.

 

If it was as cut and dried as you appear to believe--that they aren't doing romances, full stop--why not simply say so? I'm thinking it's more likely they haven't decided yet.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Zu Long

[Gurkog]

Having companions from rival factions/families/nations that compete against each other to demonstrate their superiority would be neat. Perhaps there might be gender rivalries due to a clash between companions that come from patriarchal and matriarchal societies. Maybe there will be a bitter divorced or widow/ered companion jealous of one that is in a successful romantic relationship. There could be a patronizing companion that is smug and aloof, feeling he/she is above the role they are playing in the group and there only due to necessity. Lots of things they could do, and I only came up with some cliche ideas.

[Zu Long]

I'm liking Avellone's view on this whole thing. I want subtlety, the spectrum, not the easy cheese targets, and no lame psychotic-evil types. Curious.

 

Also taking bets----by 2014, we'll have Romance Thread pt. 48.

 

I'm taking the over on that. It's only been 6 days and there have been 3 topics so far. My guess is closer to pt. 180 at least.

[Hormalakh]

Shoot sorry, I wrote another thread to gauge the forum's interest in this type of relationship:

 

when you kick out your companion from your party, because he has been with you for a long period of time, he demands a portion of the loot (his cut) since he helped with the adventure. You either have to pay him (gold,treasure, xp, whatever) or kill him or keep him in your party (if he still wants to stay in your party.)

 

This wouldn't affect new party members since they've just recently started traveling with you, but the party member who's been by your side saving your skin from time to time deserves some respect and a second-thought before mindlessly tossing him to the side for the more powerful new companion that completes your party the way you wanted it to be completed.

 

Just a thought. Wht do you guys think?

[Amentep]

I'm not crazy about the idea of the character being unkickable. Be nice if you could kick them out BUT if you did so without giving the NPC their due they show up later in a random encounter with an adventuring band or something.

 

I'm terrible at this sort of thing, but I'm all for things that make the NPCs a little more than an appendage of the player (which ironically is some of the problems with romances). If I wanted a non-descript character for me to invest my own imagination in, might as well let me create all my party to begin with, IMO.

[Badmojo]

I like romances/friendships personally, they give your character a life outside of the all mighty quests.

[harpoon]

I like romances/friendships personally, they give your character a life outside of the all mighty quests.

 

Isn't that what real life is for?

[Merin]

These guys don't want angsty teen conceptions of love in their game.

 

Raise your hand, everyone who wants angsty teen conceptions of love.

 

C'mon, show of hands.

 

*waits with hand firmly not raised*

 

I like romances/friendships personally, they give your character a life outside of the all mighty quests.

Isn't that what real life is for?

 

Took two pages this time.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Merin

[Shaz]

You know what, since we've talked about romances so much already, why don't we try to talk about these other types of relationships? What types would you like to see?

He said they were an "easy target" and other relationships were more interesting. Sawyer has stated they should be extremely well implemented or not done at all.

These are not neutral statements.

These guys don't want angsty teen conceptions of love in their game.

I'm liking Avellone's view on this whole thing. I want subtlety, the spectrum, not the easy cheese targets, and no lame psychotic-evil types. Curious.

 

What I want is that full spectrum. I will say right off that I do enjoy romances, but I'll also say that I really hate when that is all there is. It's just cheesy then, as if it's just there to flip a mental 'ooh yes romance!' switch.

 

It's not just romances I like, it's the entire relationship spectrum, because it's the relationships I develop with my party (and see between my party members) that brings a massive amount of depth to the game for me. Rivalry (of the amicable as well as the bitter type), close friendships, romance(s) at all stages, all the things that could happen within a group of people that spends lots of time together... so I'm not ONLY talking about the PC's relationships with the party but between any party member and any other- including the PC but not restricted to the PC.

 

So while I would like romances, they're far from a deal-breaker for me. I want what it seems they want: to focus on inter-party relationships, period, and not just on romance. Romance would be nice, but only if it fits, and only if it's well done.

[Amentep]

These guys don't want angsty teen conceptions of love in their game.

 

Raise your hand, everyone who wants angsty teen conceptions of love.

 

C'mon, show of hands.

 

*waits with hand firmly not raised*

 

Well, see it kind of depends on the story. If the characters were modern teens, it'd be fitting to have angsty teen luv.

 

For this game, it doesn't seem to involve traditional modern conceptions of teens or teen life as its story focus (from what little we know) so wouldn't fit the story being told. Again the story being told should dictate the elements in the story.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Amentep

[Loranc]

These guys don't want angsty teen conceptions of love in their game.

 

Raise your hand, everyone who wants angsty teen conceptions of love.

 

C'mon, show of hands.

 

*waits with hand firmly not raised*

 

Well, see it kind of depends on the story. If the characters were modern teens, it'd be fitting to have angsty teen luv.

 

For this game, it doesn't seem to involve traditional modern conceptions of teens or teen life as its story focus (from what little we know) so wouldn't fit the story being told. Again the story being told should dictate the elements in the story.

 

I'm still in favor for some dark romance. Not sure why all the rpgs these days, have this bright cheery theme to them when it comes to romance.

 

 

Chris Avellone

An American video game designer, Chris Avellone started out with Interplay, working on such titles as Fallout 2, Planescape: Torment and the Icewind Dale series. He left Interplay after the cancellation of Fallout: Van Buren, heading over toObsidian Entertainment. His first work there was Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords, followed by Neverwinter Nights 2 and action RPG Alpha Protocol. His most recent project to date was Fallout New Vegas, on which he is a senior designer and was heavily involved in the development of the DLC campaigns.

 

Avellone is noted for subverting trends in RPGs that he often finds particularly infuriating. In Planescape: Torment, he took his dislike of the Goomba tendencies of rats and utilized cranium rats, which are somewhat troublesome when encountered in large numbers. In Knights of the Old Republic II, he took his dislike of the way that the Force is often portrayed and used it to create a character that sought, for better or worse, to kill the Force entirely. He is also noted for making established game mechanics part of the story. In KotOR2, your player character was described as being able to gain power through the Force by killing others, involving the Experience Points system directly in the story. InPlanescape: Torment, the Nameless One's immortality made death not a liability, but an advantage, allowing the player to circumvent some death traps by simply dying, and reviving later once they had been removed from the death trap. He is also known for having a very extreme aversion to traditional romances, preferring ones that are somewhat tragic or unrequited.

 

I have no doubt that if romance is added into the game it will be extremely mature and well done. We're not talking teen romance here. He could do an awesome theme that doesn't even involve romance per say.

 

One of my favorite flicks is Man on Fire with Denzel. It really reached into the depth of character and asked the question 'what are you willing to sacrifice to save someone, and what lines are you willing to cross.' Just looking purely at the theme of the movie, I would love for Avellone to break the trend of normal rpgs. Why does the game have to end with the hero being victorious? Maybe he accomplishes what he set out to do, but there doesn't need to be the traditional happily ever after.

 

I guess what i'm saying is that I hope if we do see romances in this game, they do not follow the normal trend. But, I'm perfectly fine with not seeing them as well. I'm looking forward to the traditional trends that Avellone is going to break. I want to get pissed off at my adversaries, to have enemies actually have story and meaning behind them once again. Romance to be a curse and not a blessing, not easily obtainable, and no god forsaken sex cut scenes.

 

Here's to hoping that this game can deliver real emotion to the player, make me care about the main character, my companions. Make me hate with a burning rage those that are my enemy. It's been a long time since there's been a truly hate-able character in a crpg, or even a main character that I gave a crap about.

[Amentep]

 

I'm still in favor for some dark romance. Not sure why all the rpgs these days, have this bright cheery theme to them when it comes to romance.

 

I would have no problem with it provided it works within the context of the story and the characters involved. And/or the unrequited relationship mentioned in the Avellone text.

 

Or no romance. Or the ability to spend your time pursuing a character only to have them ultimately decide not to want a romance with the character. Or a romance where the characters never get past the earliest stages of the romance. I don't think the game has to provide a happy or a fullfilled romance or a sex scene to be interesting and work within the context of the game.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Amentep

[Merin]

I'm still in favor for some dark romance. Not sure why all the rpgs these days, have this bright cheery theme to them when it comes to romance.

 

I would have no problem with it provided it works within the context of the story and the characters involved. And/or the unrequited relationship mentioned in the Avellone text.

 

Or no romance. Or the ability to spend your time pursuing a character only to have them ultimately decide not to want a romance with the character. Or a romance where the characters never get past the earliest stages of the romance. I don't think the game has to provide a happy or a fullfilled romance or a sex scene to be interesting and work within the context of the game.

 

I would love to see some unrequited romance.... your MC can pursue a character, and the character knows you want to be with them and is nice to you but lets you down gently, time after time. There are some interesting RP opportunities in such a situation.

 

One of the things I'm enjoying about PS:T right now (despite so many dead ends in quests and being able to get quests readded to your quest log after you've already completed them.... grrr) is the playing with the concept of love. PS:T isn't just trying to satirize more cRPGs, it's satirizing many aspects of traditional storytelling.

 

Seriously, anyone who says love and romance isn't dealt with, and often, in PS:T has blinders on ... or has a very narrow definition of what "love and romance included" means.

 

Back more on topic - there are so many ways that romance could be part of the story and the game... and I think it'd be a shock if PE doesn't have romance in it in several places.

 

It just isn't likely to be a major focus of the gameplay mechanics - which, IMO, is a darn good thing.

[l3loodangel]

If you don't want romance between your characters then don't let them have one. Why is this such a hot topic? I personally feel that it adds another layer to the roleplaying experience.

People who spout without reading all the history and reams of arguments.... no right to ask that question.

 

That's a pretty high bar you set there. Did you read all the threads on romance, every post?

 

I didn't. And I'm not going to.

 

Sheesh.

 

Most of them belong to you or qloher, so reading them would be a waste sanity and time anyway.

[Monte Carlo]

[Malcador]

Nah, no one could be that weird, Monte.

[Kilroy_Was_Here]

As a non-romance relationship, how about an oath of brotherhood?

 

From Romance of the Three Kingdoms: "We three---Liu Bei, Guan Yu, and Zhang Fei---though of different families, swear brotherhood, and promise mutual help to one end. We will rescue each other in difficulty; we will aid each other in danger. We swear to serve the state and save the people. We ask not the same day of birth, but we seek to die together. May Heaven, the all-ruling, and Earth, the all-producing, read our hearts. If we turn aside from righteousness or forget kindliness, may Heaven and Human smite us!"

 

Elsewhere in the story losing a wife is referred to as a tear in one's clothes, easily mended. But the loss of a sworn brother is like losing a limb. (paraphrasing here because I can't find that exact quote)

 

Fun bonus: the entire ROTK text is available online for free. http://threekingdoms.com/

[Merin]

Dating myself (and setting myself up for ridicule), there's a Bon Jovi song from New Jersey called "Blood on Blood" with the idea of very close friends... I'd love to be able to establish THAT in a cRPG. I have, actually, but only in a game like IWD. You think romance is unbelievable in a short time span like most game stories... you try and justify blood brothers in the same short period of time, those kind of friendships grow over years, not days.

 

Another example - Stephen King's It. The connection the group of main characters in that story have... I'd love a party to grow that way.

 

Which leads to a very interesting concept - how about a cRPG where you first play children, and you pick up your "companions" as your friends, have some adventures.... and then the game story jumps a decade or two in the future, and you need help and track down your childhood friends? THAT would be better than romance, IMO.

[Monte Carlo]

[Amentep]

As a non-romance relationship, how about an oath of brotherhood?

 

no problem with it so long as it fits game, character, etc.

 

Another example - Stephen King's It. The connection the group of main characters in that story have... I'd love a party to grow that way.

 

Which leads to a very interesting concept - how about a cRPG where you first play children, and you pick up your "companions" as your friends, have some adventures.... and then the game story jumps a decade or two in the future, and you need help and track down your childhood friends? THAT would be better than romance, IMO.

 

Some of the jRPGs have dealt with this idea - Namco's TALES OF GRACES f for example; more or less with 4 main characters Asbel, Sophie, Cheria and Hubert all as kids where they have an adventure (that goes wrong) and then later as adults who end up coming together to deal with some further issues that tie into that original ill-fated adventure.

[Merin]

Another example - Stephen King's It. The connection the group of main characters in that story have... I'd love a party to grow that way.

 

Which leads to a very interesting concept - how about a cRPG where you first play children, and you pick up your "companions" as your friends, have some adventures.... and then the game story jumps a decade or two in the future, and you need help and track down your childhood friends? THAT would be better than romance, IMO.

Some of the jRPGs have dealt with this idea - Namco's TALES OF GRACES f for example; more or less with 4 main characters Asbel, Sophie, Cheria and Hubert all as kids where they have an adventure (that goes wrong) and then later as adults who end up coming together to deal with some further issues that tie into that original ill-fated adventure.

 

I was hoping for a western style cRPG. But, yeah, jRPG's like this concept. Cloud and Tifa, childhood friends. I don't remember character names, but Golden Sun I think did very similar things, too.

[Amentep]

Another example - Stephen King's It. The connection the group of main characters in that story have... I'd love a party to grow that way.

 

Which leads to a very interesting concept - how about a cRPG where you first play children, and you pick up your "companions" as your friends, have some adventures.... and then the game story jumps a decade or two in the future, and you need help and track down your childhood friends? THAT would be better than romance, IMO.

Some of the jRPGs have dealt with this idea - Namco's TALES OF GRACES f for example; more or less with 4 main characters Asbel, Sophie, Cheria and Hubert all as kids where they have an adventure (that goes wrong) and then later as adults who end up coming together to deal with some further issues that tie into that original ill-fated adventure.

 

I was hoping for a western style cRPG. But, yeah, jRPG's like this concept. Cloud and Tifa, childhood friends. I don't remember character names, but Golden Sun I think did very similar things, too.

 

Oh I think its fertile ground to play with. I suppose Fallout 3 toys with it - by giving you the ability to "play" parts of your childhood and bringing you back as an adult. But it ultimately is a minor part of that game. I could see a game in a less hard defined plot (like most jRPGs) having a lot of room to do some early choice / consequences to really give your character a more defined (yet still creator defined) background.

[Gfted1]

Whats the point of fade-to-black before unfading-from-black but time has passed? The player hasnt spent any more time with the games characters to gain a feeling of closeness, just artificially advanced time. Is it all a jedi mind trick to allow yourself to believe youve been with these characters for years?