Anti-Dragon Age 2?

[BruceVC]

I don't know if BioWare has learned anything. I don't closely follow the forums, maybe they've posted something to suggest that they have, but because the dialogue wheel and voice-protag are confirmed for DA3, I highly doubt it.

 

The Doctors are gone, EA has renamed all its other studios, and SWTOR is F2P. I would hope somebody over there has said, "We need to change how we've been doing things." But I don't know. Maybe they're convinced Dragon Age 3 will be "right this time"? I can't help but shake my head, because I feel that way sometimes too. Like, Lambda Calculus? I took it this semester and I was so sure the second test would come out "right this time" but man, hubris is pretty painful to get excised. I can't help but feel that somebody at BioWare who's in charge of things thinks they know how to get the Skyrim/Call of Duty audience, but I'm not convinced at all. TES is a long-running series. Call of Duty is a long-running series. The fans know what to expect and they know what will be delivered when they purchase that product.

 

Instead of building up a fanbase, BioWare has been neglecting theirs. Or at least, it seems that way. Maybe they're actually doing a good job of communicating to everyone their intentions but I just keep seeing mixed messages.

 

As a consumer, I have no idea what to expect from Dragon Age 3. I mean, I hope it's going to be an RPG remniscient of KOTOR1, BG1, BG2, or even Jade Empire at this point. Gosh, I'd settle for that at this point, it's not like RPGs are a dime a dozen anymore. I'll take the mediocrity that was DA:O - DA:O has a lot of good points about it, the least they could do is stick to making that sort of game.

 

I think it's a really bad sign that I have no idea what to expect. What do you think the average, uninformed consumer is expecting from Dragon Age 3? Are they going to pay $60 USD after their experience with DA2? How are they going to invigorate people who haven't bought DA2 or DA:O to buy DA3? Is the tagline for the game going to be, "It's just like Skyrim!" Because I'm pretty sure that's not going to work. At the very least, I don't believe BioWare can deliver a TES-clone, not in the time frame they have at least, and if people do fall for such a tagline, they're going to be pretty angry when they don't get what they want, and the people who didn't like Skyrim (such as I), who don't buy DA3 as a result, are going to mean a lot of lost jobs for BioWare, most likely.

 

For me I think they have learnt lessons. You can see from this blog that Mark Darrah, Executive Producer of DA3, that they are listening to fans and there feedback.

http://blog.bioware.com/2012/09/17/a-blog-from-mark-darrah-dragon-age-iii-inquisition/

 

So I expect a markedly improved game to DA2. I will be supporting them financially as I do still believe Bioware can deliver entertaining games.

[BBMorti]

I don't know if BioWare has learned anything. I don't closely follow the forums, maybe they've posted something to suggest that they have, but because the dialogue wheel and voice-protag are confirmed for DA3, I highly doubt it.

 

The Doctors are gone, EA has renamed all its other studios, and SWTOR is F2P. I would hope somebody over there has said, "We need to change how we've been doing things." But I don't know. Maybe they're convinced Dragon Age 3 will be "right this time"? I can't help but shake my head, because I feel that way sometimes too. Like, Lambda Calculus? I took it this semester and I was so sure the second test would come out "right this time" but man, hubris is pretty painful to get excised. I can't help but feel that somebody at BioWare who's in charge of things thinks they know how to get the Skyrim/Call of Duty audience, but I'm not convinced at all. TES is a long-running series. Call of Duty is a long-running series. The fans know what to expect and they know what will be delivered when they purchase that product.

 

Instead of building up a fanbase, BioWare has been neglecting theirs. Or at least, it seems that way. Maybe they're actually doing a good job of communicating to everyone their intentions but I just keep seeing mixed messages.

 

As a consumer, I have no idea what to expect from Dragon Age 3. I mean, I hope it's going to be an RPG remniscient of KOTOR1, BG1, BG2, or even Jade Empire at this point. Gosh, I'd settle for that at this point, it's not like RPGs are a dime a dozen anymore. I'll take the mediocrity that was DA:O - DA:O has a lot of good points about it, the least they could do is stick to making that sort of game.

 

I think it's a really bad sign that I have no idea what to expect. What do you think the average, uninformed consumer is expecting from Dragon Age 3? Are they going to pay $60 USD after their experience with DA2? How are they going to invigorate people who haven't bought DA2 or DA:O to buy DA3? Is the tagline for the game going to be, "It's just like Skyrim!" Because I'm pretty sure that's not going to work. At the very least, I don't believe BioWare can deliver a TES-clone, not in the time frame they have at least, and if people do fall for such a tagline, they're going to be pretty angry when they don't get what they want, and the people who didn't like Skyrim (such as I), who don't buy DA3 as a result, are going to mean a lot of lost jobs for BioWare, most likely.

 

For me I think they have learnt lessons. You can see from this blog that Mark Darrah, Executive Producer of DA3, that they are listening to fans and there feedback.

http://blog.bioware....ii-inquisition/

 

So I expect a markedly improved game to DA2. I will be supporting them financially as I do still believe Bioware can deliver entertaining games.

I don't think Bioware has learned their lessons, it is more customers like you who haven't. I say this based on how little it is required for you to already be decided upon tossing money at them when this title launches.

The two things confirmed, dialogue wheel and voiced protagonist (that can only be one race) is not what I would call lesson learned.

[BruceVC]

I don't know if BioWare has learned anything. I don't closely follow the forums, maybe they've posted something to suggest that they have, but because the dialogue wheel and voice-protag are confirmed for DA3, I highly doubt it.

 

The Doctors are gone, EA has renamed all its other studios, and SWTOR is F2P. I would hope somebody over there has said, "We need to change how we've been doing things." But I don't know. Maybe they're convinced Dragon Age 3 will be "right this time"? I can't help but shake my head, because I feel that way sometimes too. Like, Lambda Calculus? I took it this semester and I was so sure the second test would come out "right this time" but man, hubris is pretty painful to get excised. I can't help but feel that somebody at BioWare who's in charge of things thinks they know how to get the Skyrim/Call of Duty audience, but I'm not convinced at all. TES is a long-running series. Call of Duty is a long-running series. The fans know what to expect and they know what will be delivered when they purchase that product.

 

Instead of building up a fanbase, BioWare has been neglecting theirs. Or at least, it seems that way. Maybe they're actually doing a good job of communicating to everyone their intentions but I just keep seeing mixed messages.

 

As a consumer, I have no idea what to expect from Dragon Age 3. I mean, I hope it's going to be an RPG remniscient of KOTOR1, BG1, BG2, or even Jade Empire at this point. Gosh, I'd settle for that at this point, it's not like RPGs are a dime a dozen anymore. I'll take the mediocrity that was DA:O - DA:O has a lot of good points about it, the least they could do is stick to making that sort of game.

 

I think it's a really bad sign that I have no idea what to expect. What do you think the average, uninformed consumer is expecting from Dragon Age 3? Are they going to pay $60 USD after their experience with DA2? How are they going to invigorate people who haven't bought DA2 or DA:O to buy DA3? Is the tagline for the game going to be, "It's just like Skyrim!" Because I'm pretty sure that's not going to work. At the very least, I don't believe BioWare can deliver a TES-clone, not in the time frame they have at least, and if people do fall for such a tagline, they're going to be pretty angry when they don't get what they want, and the people who didn't like Skyrim (such as I), who don't buy DA3 as a result, are going to mean a lot of lost jobs for BioWare, most likely.

 

For me I think they have learnt lessons. You can see from this blog that Mark Darrah, Executive Producer of DA3, that they are listening to fans and there feedback.

http://blog.bioware....ii-inquisition/

 

So I expect a markedly improved game to DA2. I will be supporting them financially as I do still believe Bioware can deliver entertaining games.

I don't think Bioware has learned their lessons, it is more customers like you who haven't. I say this based on how little it is required for you to already be decided upon tossing money at them when this title launches.

The two things confirmed, dialogue wheel and voiced protagonist (that can only be one race) is not what I would call lesson learned.

 

But I don't have an issue with the dialogue wheel, in fact just remind me again why its a bad design?

 

Don't get me wrong I prefer the traditional response options like BG2 but its not enough of a reason to make me not buy DA3.

 

Also surly the dialogue wheel wasn't the main reason people didn't like DA2. I thought it was more the laziness in the design around factors like the reused dungeons and creatures just appearing from air. I may be wrong?

[Gorth]

I think the recycling was out of necessity (circumstances beyond the designers control). The bad encounter design however was... a bad idea that got implemented.

[Nepenthe]

But I don't have an issue with the dialogue wheel, in fact just remind me again why its a bad design?

 

Don't get me wrong I prefer the traditional response options like BG2 but its not enough of a reason to make me not buy DA3.

 

Also surly the dialogue wheel wasn't the main reason people didn't like DA2. I thought it was more the laziness in the design around factors like the reused dungeons and creatures just appearing from air. I may be wrong?

Some people have synonymised the dialogue wheel with the decline of Bioware they have percieved. They should be glad for it, the shortened responses (in the vein of "I want to be a dragon") it displays have provided them with endless ammunition for their trolling. Personally, I don't mind it, they've gotten a lot better with from its first implementation in Mass Effect 1. But then again, my French teacher described me as a classic intellectual subtype who's able to enjoy "stupid" pursuits because he had enough intellicredentials without positing an endless interest in everything "deep". Not sure how accurate he is, but he's always struck me as a pretty astute guy.

 

The main reason people didn't enjoy DA2 is approaching it with a negative mindset. Everybody I've seen approach it with an open mind found it fairly enjoyable in spite of its faults.

[BruceVC]

But I don't have an issue with the dialogue wheel, in fact just remind me again why its a bad design?

 

Don't get me wrong I prefer the traditional response options like BG2 but its not enough of a reason to make me not buy DA3.

 

Also surly the dialogue wheel wasn't the main reason people didn't like DA2. I thought it was more the laziness in the design around factors like the reused dungeons and creatures just appearing from air. I may be wrong?

Some people have synonymised the dialogue wheel with the decline of Bioware they have percieved. They should be glad for it, the shortened responses (in the vein of "I want to be a dragon") it displays have provided them with endless ammunition for their trolling. Personally, I don't mind it, they've gotten a lot better with from its first implementation in Mass Effect 1. But then again, my French teacher described me as a classic intellectual subtype who's able to enjoy "stupid" pursuits because he had enough intellicredentials without positing an endless interest in everything "deep". Not sure how accurate he is, but he's always struck me as a pretty astute guy.

 

The main reason people didn't enjoy DA2 is approaching it with a negative mindset. Everybody I've seen approach it with an open mind found it fairly enjoyable in spite of its faults.

 

I agree with almost everything you have said, when I played DA2 I ignored all the nnegative press from many people and looked at the game on its own merit. It was entertaining, it wasn't fantastic but I didn't dislike it. As I mentioned before it had Isabella in it

 

I know Bioware can do better and I am confidant they will

[Nepenthe]

<3 Isabela

 

;D

[Azure79]

Everything I've heard about DA3 seems pretty promising. Of course it remains to be seen how these all pan out but I'm keeping optimistic.

 

You can only play human, but it will be more customizable than DA:O. It sounds like your character will be able to choose from a variety of backgrounds which is good.

 

Environments will not be reused and there will be large maps to explore.

 

Save games will be able to be imported. I think they did a good job with this in ME3 concerning the fates your former party members could meet so as long as it continues along those lines I'll be satisfied.

 

The main theme is saving the world from itself and that sounds pretty interesting.

 

If they change up the combat so its more tactical, better paced and better animated I think it'll be good.

[Serrano]

<3 Isabela

 

;D

 

Is there anyone that woman hasn't slept with?

[BBMorti]

^

The string of likes you two toss at each others, it is almost romantic

 

The dialogue wheel is an insult to a mind that is not on auto pilot. I know I am not alone with this opinion.

Yes, I realize I should not expect others to be stimulated by the same things that works for me but a whole game split into baby talk sentences 'Goodie comment' - 'Sarcastic comment - I am hungry' and bad comments is underwhelming.. it is intellectually insulting.

 

I am not 100% sure how your french teachers comment fits into this, but I know that it is common knowledge that teaching works when you use flatter.

 

Nepenthe the open mind comment is either a lie or I misunderstand it. All the people who had pre-ordered the game, and didn't like it.. it is an interesting thought to consider they all threw money at the game and tried it with a negative mindset. But unlikely.

[BruceVC]

<3 Isabela

 

;D

 

Is there anyone that woman hasn't slept with?

 

She was a beautiful little pirate wasn't she

Edited January 8, 2013 by BruceVC

[Gorth]

The dialogue wheel is an insult to a mind that is not on auto pilot. I know I am not alone with this opinion.

Yes, I realize I should not expect others to be stimulated by the same things that works for me but a whole game split into baby talk sentences 'Goodie comment' - 'Sarcastic comment - I am hungry' and bad comments is underwhelming.. it is intellectually insulting.

 

Why is it insulting? It's an abstraction of your intent. For "old school" crpgs without the budget to voice act each and every line, it makes sense to spell out everything in painstaking detail. However, if your character is just going read out loud the text in front of you, it really is redundant. The only real problem I see is if the hint you get is grossly misleading (and there were a few of those throughout some of the games).

 

Otherwise I don't find it anymore "insulting" than using hitpoints as an abstraction of my health. Seriously, what exactly is a HP? Where is my detailed pathological and medical status sheet??? Kidneys: Still in place (check) Liver: At 50% capacity (requires attention, cut down on ale), Bloodlevels: At 65% and rapidly decreasing at 1 l/s (urgent attention required), Left arm: Missing, Left leg missing ('tis but a flesh wound) etc. Easier to tell me I got 5 hp left out of 50 and rapidly dying.

 

I see the dialogue wheel in a similar way. It gives me a brief overview of my choices. I would like my choices to actually matter and is does irritate me when the game pulls a "Gotcha!" on me with the dialogue, but I don't see anything "insulting" other than it hurts the feelings of those who would prefer more text and less voice acting in games.

[Moirnelithe]

I have several beefs with the dialogue wheel and full voice overs in RPGs in general and in DA2. Although whether DA2 is a RPG is a matter of debate (my opinion).

 

To start with, with full voice-overs dialogue is budget based instead of story based. Since voice-overs cost a lot of money, lines that add to immersion but aren't strictly necessary don't get added and once a line is voiced it's too expensive to change it, even when on hindsight it just doesn't work. This results in a bland roleplaying game.

 

Next, I read much faster than a voiced character can speak. A large part of the game I sit there passively waiting for the voiceactors to finally finish their lines. I really prefer to play my games and not have them read to me. If I want passive entertainment I'll go watch a movie. I don't think a game should be a passive experience.

 

Aside from that and this doesn't have so much to do with the voiceovers or the wheel but more in general although both contribute to it: to Bioware a RPG seems to be all about the 'cinematic experience' and not about the roleplaying nowadays. To me a RPG should be about building my own character and play her the way I want to play her. Instead I get their character the way they'd like to play it shoved down my throat. Their choice of voice, their race, their looks, their way of talking, it's like being forced to watch a video of someone else play a game with their character.

 

Now about the dialogue wheel, I have never reloaded a game as much as I did with DA2: try a dialogue option -> "wtf, I didn't mean to say that!" -> reload. It's more of a guessing game than a roleplaying game.

 

In DA2 there were only three types of responses:

 

- red: rude/stupid; I guess they meant this to be the evil response but evil should not automatically equal rude! Choosing this also resulted in murdering people just because and with no regards of the consequences (not that there were any, there should have been).

- purple: (not very) funny/stupid; a lot of the 'sarcastic' lines were cheesy, uninspired and eye-rollingly bad, like the writers wanted to score points with the audience instead of fleshing out the character. Cheap laughs are just not my thing.

- green: goody-two-shoes-roll-over-and-take-it/stupid; let's not get me started on this one. I'd need a bucket.

 

Basically, if you wanted to play a charismatic, intelligent, courteous or manipulating character you were **** out of luck. The dialogue wheel didn't just streamline the dialogues, it made a joke out of it.

 

No, DA2 was definitely not my cup of tea.

[BruceVC]

I have several beefs with the dialogue wheel and full voice overs in RPGs in general and in DA2. Although whether DA2 is a RPG is a matter of debate (my opinion).

 

To start with, with full voice-overs dialogue is budget based instead of story based. Since voice-overs cost a lot of money, lines that add to immersion but aren't strictly necessary don't get added and once a line is voiced it's too expensive to change it, even when on hindsight it just doesn't work. This results in a bland roleplaying game.

 

Next, I read much faster than a voiced character can speak. A large part of the game I sit there passively waiting for the voiceactors to finally finish their lines. I really prefer to play my games and not have them read to me. If I want passive entertainment I'll go watch a movie. I don't think a game should be a passive experience.

 

Aside from that and this doesn't have so much to do with the voiceovers or the wheel but more in general although both contribute to it: to Bioware a RPG seems to be all about the 'cinematic experience' and not about the roleplaying nowadays. To me a RPG should be about building my own character and play her the way I want to play her. Instead I get their character the way they'd like to play it shoved down my throat. Their choice of voice, their race, their looks, their way of talking, it's like being forced to watch a video of someone else play a game with their character.

 

Now about the dialogue wheel, I have never reloaded a game as much as I did with DA2: try a dialogue option -> "wtf, I didn't mean to say that!" -> reload. It's more of a guessing game than a roleplaying game.

 

In DA2 there were only three types of responses:

 

- red: rude/stupid; I guess they meant this to be the evil response but evil should not automatically equal rude! Choosing this also resulted in murdering people just because and with no regards of the consequences (not that there were any, there should have been).

- purple: (not very) funny/stupid; a lot of the 'sarcastic' lines were cheesy, uninspired and eye-rollingly bad, like the writers wanted to score points with the audience instead of fleshing out the character. Cheap laughs are just not my thing.

- green: goody-two-shoes-roll-over-and-take-it/stupid; let's not get me started on this one. I'd need a bucket.

 

Basically, if you wanted to play a charismatic, intelligent, courteous or manipulating character you were **** out of luck. The dialogue wheel didn't just streamline the dialogues, it made a joke out of it.

 

No, DA2 was definitely not my cup of tea.

 

Wow, thats a serious indictment of DA2, the way you explain it I can understand why you didn't enjoy it.

 

But are you sure you understood what the various dialogue options meant, maybe thats why you didn't understand how the system worked?

Edited January 8, 2013 by BruceVC

[Nepenthe]

Nepenthe the open mind comment is either a lie or I misunderstand it. All the people who had pre-ordered the game, and didn't like it.. it is an interesting thought to consider they all threw money at the game and tried it with a negative mindset. But unlikely.

People are picking up a habit of accusing me of lying with flimsy grounds. I don't like it.

 

Firstly, I was speaking of people I've "seen", either online or in person. Obviously, this is not everybody. Secondly, most people are incapable of forming their own opinions and will just follow the loudest noise. Clearly, the haters were the loudest re: DA2.

[AGX-17]

I don't know if BioWare has learned anything. I don't closely follow the forums, maybe they've posted something to suggest that they have, but because the dialogue wheel and voice-protag are confirmed for DA3, I highly doubt it.

 

The Doctors are gone, EA has renamed all its other studios, and SWTOR is F2P. I would hope somebody over there has said, "We need to change how we've been doing things." But I don't know. Maybe they're convinced Dragon Age 3 will be "right this time"? I can't help but shake my head, because I feel that way sometimes too. Like, Lambda Calculus? I took it this semester and I was so sure the second test would come out "right this time" but man, hubris is pretty painful to get excised. I can't help but feel that somebody at BioWare who's in charge of things thinks they know how to get the Skyrim/Call of Duty audience, but I'm not convinced at all. TES is a long-running series. Call of Duty is a long-running series. The fans know what to expect and they know what will be delivered when they purchase that product.

 

Instead of building up a fanbase, BioWare has been neglecting theirs. Or at least, it seems that way. Maybe they're actually doing a good job of communicating to everyone their intentions but I just keep seeing mixed messages.

 

As a consumer, I have no idea what to expect from Dragon Age 3. I mean, I hope it's going to be an RPG remniscient of KOTOR1, BG1, BG2, or even Jade Empire at this point. Gosh, I'd settle for that at this point, it's not like RPGs are a dime a dozen anymore. I'll take the mediocrity that was DA:O - DA:O has a lot of good points about it, the least they could do is stick to making that sort of game.

 

I think it's a really bad sign that I have no idea what to expect. What do you think the average, uninformed consumer is expecting from Dragon Age 3? Are they going to pay $60 USD after their experience with DA2? How are they going to invigorate people who haven't bought DA2 or DA:O to buy DA3? Is the tagline for the game going to be, "It's just like Skyrim!" Because I'm pretty sure that's not going to work. At the very least, I don't believe BioWare can deliver a TES-clone, not in the time frame they have at least, and if people do fall for such a tagline, they're going to be pretty angry when they don't get what they want, and the people who didn't like Skyrim (such as I), who don't buy DA3 as a result, are going to mean a lot of lost jobs for BioWare, most likely.

 

They've shifted their fanbase from people who like cRPGs to people who like cRPG lite on the side of their romantic companionship gaming.

 

The real lesson they've learned is that open world/sandbox games are a big thing now, which is why they announced DA3 would be an open world game. Admittedly, that could be a legitimate response to the many legitimate complaints about the severely limited environment and geography of DA2.

[Moirnelithe]

[

Wow, thats a serious indictment of DA2, the way you explain it I can understand why you didn't enjoy it.

 

But are you sure you understood what the various dialogue options meant, maybe thats why you didn't understand how the system worked?

Err, I do understand how the system worked, and none of the dialogue options both in language or intent were particularly difficult to understand. That is, after picking one; the short descriptions on the wheel were not particularly enlightening, hence the guessing game.

 

Now, I'm not a native English speaker but I understand the language just fine. I just didn't like the dialogue system. The options are too restrictive, trying too hard to entertain and losing sight of the goal which in an RPG is building your own story and character. They turned my character into their character by yanking away control both in customization and dialogue, and turned it into one I would never choose to play at that.

[alanschu]

they announced DA3 would be an open world game

 

We did no such thing.

[Malcador]

Sure they did. Based on an unreliable 'report' a while back.

[BruceVC]

[

Wow, thats a serious indictment of DA2, the way you explain it I can understand why you didn't enjoy it.

 

But are you sure you understood what the various dialogue options meant, maybe thats why you didn't understand how the system worked?

Err, I do understand how the system worked, and none of the dialogue options both in language or intent were particularly difficult to understand. That is, after picking one; the short descriptions on the wheel were not particularly enlightening, hence the guessing game.

 

Now, I'm not a native English speaker but I understand the language just fine. I just didn't like the dialogue system. The options are too restrictive, trying too hard to entertain and losing sight of the goal which in an RPG is building your own story and character. They turned my character into their character by yanking away control both in customization and dialogue, and turned it into one I would never choose to play at that.

 

Okay I understand what you meant now when you say you didn't like the dialogue

[alanschu]

Sure they did. Based on an unreliable 'report' a while back.

 

Ah, well if people are going to believe any old random comment then.

 

We're not making an open world game.

 

We're making a game with much larger levels (in large part thanks to Frostbite), as well as spending more time on areas that are less connected to the crit path of the plot.

Edited January 8, 2013 by alanschu

[Tale]

Dragon Age 2, despite being horrible, was pretty decent.

I would champion it to this day if the entire third act wasn't one of the dumbest bits of railroading I've seen in years.

 

Worse than that time my DM started setting fire to doors he wanted me to not go through. He forgot I had 5 resist to fire.

[Monte Carlo]

Why, Bio? WHY?

[Volourn]

DA2 > BG1

[Nonek]

They're not really calling it inquisition are they? If true, how many jokes on the theme of, "our three main weapons are awesome, juvenile wit, illogical plots and of course romances...damn that's four," have so far appeared?