Discussion on thief class, could they do more in PE

[bronzepoem]

As we know there won't be a nijia class or a assassin class in PE. So maybe some guys will expect more on thief class.

In original DND RPGs,thief played a role as a light fighter with the skills about steal,sneak,trap and backstab. I'm wondering What kind of innovation will the OE genius do on this class?Maybe we can discuss it first and give some advices.

My ideas maybe are a little crazy. But I think they aren't very hard to achieve and can support a lot of fun. First, how about design a stun skill, which can make enemies or NPCs stupor(with a Endurance DC check, and can't affect on a character wearing hemlet), when the NPC is stupor, players can do vaired thing on him in a limited time(maybe 30 seconds). For example , take equipments off, harm, cure, use stuffs on,put things into his pocket...Then, If the NPC didn't see player's team in their sight when he wake up, he won't be hostile. But player can't do same thing again within a very long time. This can be used to deal with some caustic merchants and arrogant dowagers , and used to design some very funny quests.

Second, eavesdrop skill.Maybe it needn't be a independent skill, but an improvement on sneak skill. We know spy always sneak to enemies' house and steal some information. That could be thieives' new job. We can design some area like that: when you just walk in, you will face enemies' attack. But if you sneak in, you can hear some dialog between enemies. And the information will lead to new consequences.

Thrid, true assassination. I mean backstab can be used in some no-combat situations. I wish a talent thief in PEcan sneak into NPC's room and end his life in silence. If he did this job successfully(didn't be saw by guards or other NPCs), the reputation bar won't decrease and other NPCs in the same city won't be hostile. But of course there could be some interesting consequences after assassination(maybe a wanted notice of mystic killer on street wall).

Forth, the steal skill, I hope we can do something like that: when you want to attack a powerful neutral NPC, you can send you thief to steal his weapons and potions to make the battle easier. That's the sweet spot of thief class.

Fifth, special weapon and equipments can be used. Not a light fighter with long sword,short sowrd and dagger again please.If a thief have high combat skill points,I wish he can use some special weapons better than fighters. Such as claw,jaggedstar,darts,and many cool weapons I don't know their english name.

Sixth, unlock skill. If a thief can unlock a door, of course he can lock a door. Imagine that you sneak in a stronghold and want to kill their boss. Before the final battle ,you lock the door of guards' room. So when you start combat with the boss, all the guards are tring to break down their door(maybe need 15 seconds). The tactics become varied by a simple skill.

At last, trap skill. Old trap skill just like some kinds of magic.I don't like that.But I haven't gotten some fresh idea about it yet. How about you guys~

 

That all. Just athought

[happyelf]

If there are skills like diplomacy and persuasion, then an eavesdrop skill could fit quite well in a similar area of the design. Also things like gather information or streetwise could be interesting.

 

There could be certain data you could get about a region- even if it's just a bit of lore and monster info. If the region is wilderness, getting that information could take a Wilderness Survival skill. If it's a dungeon or ruin, it could take something like history of dungeoneering. But if it's in a city or resonably sized settlement? Then a rogue-ey skill like streetwise could serve the same purpose.

Edited October 6, 2012 by happyelf

[Osvir]

There could be certain data you could get about a region- even if it's just a bit of lore and monster info. If the region is wilderness, getting that information could take a Wilderness Survival skill. If it's a dungeon or ruin, it could take something like history of dungeoneering. But if it's in a city or resonably sized settlement? Then a rogue-ey skill like streetwise could serve the same purpose.

 

Huh, that's pretty cool and sensible as well. If a Ranger is more "Forest-smart" a Rogue would be the equivalent "City-smart". It would give the Rogue yet another interesting game device... however, combining the Forest+City-smartness into one Ability would be more effective?

 

I also like the eavesdrop thing, but that sounds more like a once-rarely-in-a-while Quest related thing: "Your mission is to infiltrate this Mansion and find information, there is also going to be secret meeting". Hide in Shadows would suffice I think. I wouldn't need a button and/or ability to "eavesdrop" per say. I could just place my character in Stealth mode in the shadows in the same room as the secret meeting is going on.

 

Also:

http://eternitywiki.com/Rogue

 

And more here:

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61045-the-role-of-rogues/

[bronzepoem]

If there are skills like diplomacy and persuasion, then an eavesdrop skill could fit quite well in a similar area of the design. Also things like gather information or streetwise could be interesting.

 

There could be certain data you could get about a region- even if it's just a bit of lore and monster info. If the region is wilderness, getting that information could take a Wilderness Survival skill. If it's a dungeon or ruin, it could take something like history of dungeoneering. But if it's in a city or resonably sized settlement? Then a rogue-ey skill like streetwise could serve the same purpose.

In fact the eavesdrop I said is a different skill from diplomacy or streetwise. Streetwise is some kind of speech skill, but eavesdrop skill as I said, is a sneak skill.

Anyway, I like the idea about streetwise No matter will this be designed to a independent skill, OE should give thief and bard class more information and choices in some kind of city quests.

[bronzepoem]

I also like the eavesdrop thing, but that sounds more like a once-rarely-in-a-while Quest related thing: "Your mission is to infiltrate this Mansion and find information, there is also going to be secret meeting". Hide in Shadows would suffice I think. I wouldn't need a button and/or ability to "eavesdrop" per say. I could just place my character in Stealth mode in the shadows in the same room as the secret meeting is going on.

 

Excatly agree. What I mean do is an once-rarely-in-a-while quest related thing. We totally don't need a eavesdrop button. So I said it needn't to be a skill, just a improvement on sneak. Another words, I wish they can make sneak skill more useful in no-combat situation. Even we needn't any mission, or mission just told us to crash the area by sword. Only if we sneak there in silence, we could find some hiding information or quests which mission didn't told us.

I always love those hiding elements in RPG~

Edited October 6, 2012 by bronzepoem

[Lysen]

Sixth, unlock skill. If a thief can unlock a door, of course he can lock a door. Imagine that you sneak in a stronghold and want to kill their boss. Before the final battle ,you lock the door of guards' room. So when you start combat with the boss, all the guards are tring to break down their door(maybe need 15 seconds). The tactics become varied by a simple skill.

 

I always wanted to do that, but I don't remember any game with this feature(((

 

 

Huh, that's pretty cool and sensible as well. If a Ranger is more "Forest-smart" a Rogue would be the equivalent "City-smart". It would give the Rogue yet another interesting game device... however, combining the Forest+City-smartness into one Ability would be more effective?

 

Streetwise is a skill in Drakensang, for example. You can use it in dialogue. I really hope that we will have something similar in PE.

[bronzepoem]

Sixth, unlock skill. If a thief can unlock a door, of course he can lock a door. Imagine that you sneak in a stronghold and want to kill their boss. Before the final battle ,you lock the door of guards' room. So when you start combat with the boss, all the guards are tring to break down their door(maybe need 15 seconds). The tactics become varied by a simple skill.

 

I always wanted to do that, but I don't remember any game with this feature(((

 

Yes, I don't too.Maybe PE will become the first game with this feature

[DocDoomII]

The ability to lock is actually interesting. But I'd like magical locking too! And I want to trap a door, physically and magically too!

[Sugarjaye]

The ability to lock is actually interesting. But I'd like magical locking too! And I want to trap a door, physically and magically too!

 

That would be pretty cool.

[bronzepoem]

The ability to lock is actually interesting. But I'd like magical locking too! And I want to trap a door, physically and magically too!

Yes, magic could even do better. Maybe a spell could directly build force field door . At next topic I want to discuss what could magic do in no-combat situation.

[Hopper]

I really like the locking idea, too.

Especially with a chance for the enemies to break the door.

That way it won't be overpowered, but it would give you an advantage in the battle and the ability to single out targets that need killing first.

And different door types could be easier and harder to both lock and break, simply tied to the difficulty of lock.

[bronzepoem]

OK,it seems picking locks skill will be coverd by Mechanics skill. But I still wish my character will be able to lock those doors.

[ion.sh]

The potential eavesdropping ability piqued my interest.

 

How about this? Player development of the thief archetype as an informant, not just of physical conversations but of things people try to keep hidden in their mind. Being able to eavesdrop on inner thoughts of npcs in the game world would be so cool. Might be more of a magic user things though, depending on how they treat prevalence of non-physical abilities in the world.

[Gyor]

I read thier discription of the Rogue and they seem to be going way beyond the traditional Rogue, like applying soul venom, and meanting varied archtypes the seem to have a economic class/profession feel to them, like Courtesan, Diplomat, and Aristrocrat.

[Hormalakh]

I guess my biggest concern with the Rogue/Thief skill is to make the class skills robust and satisfying to use. For example, if there is a thieves' guild, only they should really be able to join the TG. In a lot of the older IE games, the thieves were modded just because they were unsatisfying to use other than as a lockpick and trap-hunter/setter. I guess my biggest concern is that with a lot of these classes, they should be quite robust and different than the other classes so that it isn't just fighter + (insert a few skill sets here) or wizard + fighter + etc...

[JFSOCC]

random options that come to mind:

• Thief "gather information" challenges
  
• Short range teleport (higher level, allows you to manoeuvre better)
  
• faster walking and running speeds (optional) to balance for being less of a fighter. (becomes more of a force multiplier character, get in, manoeuvre behind picked target, gank till stamina is about to run out, dart out to safety while recharging stamina. This would also make them more useful as scouts since you don't have to wait an hour before they get back to the team.
  
• silent takedown, risky option that can remove a patrolling lower challenge guard without the alarm immediately being sounded. comes in lethal and non-lethal variants.
  
• mission results that note that no evidence was left on some of the more intricate quests.
  
• planting evidence or (I was especially pleased to see you could do this in fallout 3) planting a grenade. (well maybe not a grenade, but something harmful. switching a famous scepter with a fake one. (so I guess some class specific quest content?)
  
• at higher levels: beguiling: letting enemies think you pose no threat, or even are supposed to be there. Imagine a few antagonist being utterly surprised as it turns out you were working for their opponents all along. Why did they bring you? who are you? You could use this creatively, for instance allowing you to lure smaller groups into traps. "I need help! Follow me!"
  

[Monte Carlo]

Balance. Meh.

 

The Rogue class shouldn't be a warrior-who-fights-differently.

 

Which is what it's morphed into over the past ten years (qv Dragon Age).

 

The Thief should be able to do a mixture of the following:

 

* Be a skill monkey

* Have specific combat strengths discrete to those of the fighter class (i.e. ranged or back-stab for example)

* Be a reconnaissance expert

* Play a specific locks and traps role

* Be able, at high levels, to figure out how to use magic items

 

This fairly vanilla rogue skillset has served games like D&D well for many years. It's not that broke, really, and doesn't need a lot of fixing.

[Gelp]

The rogue can be much more than that.

 

The rogue can be the face of the party. The laughing scoundrel who can peel the skivvies off a maiden at a glance from thirty yards away. He can schmooze with the merchants and get the party the information they need. Sure, stealing and traps are all and well for dungeons, but sometimes in town different skills are needed.

 

Look at it this way. In the A-Team, Mr. T was the fighter. Murdoc was the mage. Face was the rogue. Without the rogue's work, the rest of the team wouldn't be able to function. Heck, half the time without him they wouldn't be able to find work.

 

Either way, I argue "screw the D&D standards." You don't need backstab if you have witty remarks that can embarrass and harass the enemy to reduce their combat capabilities. While some of this might fall traditionally to the bard, I think it's something very different. Rogues wouldn't collect lore, nor play instruments. They'd just be very good at communicating with people.

[rjshae]

If they include a climb skill, there is a lot they could do in terms of using a thief as a scout; entering through the upper floor, sneaking about, and seeing what types of defenses the residents have in place.

 

Otherwise, in IE-series combat, I have typically used a rogue for ranged attacks. It'd be good if they could do a little more with that capability.

Edited October 15, 2012 by rjshae

[Theomen712]

random options that come to mind:

• Thief "gather information" challenges
  
• Short range teleport (higher level, allows you to manoeuvre better)
  
• faster walking and running speeds (optional) to balance for being less of a fighter. (becomes more of a force multiplier character, get in, manoeuvre behind picked target, gank till stamina is about to run out, dart out to safety while recharging stamina. This would also make them more useful as scouts since you don't have to wait an hour before they get back to the team.
  
• silent takedown, risky option that can remove a patrolling lower challenge guard without the alarm immediately being sounded. comes in lethal and non-lethal variants.
  
• mission results that note that no evidence was left on some of the more intricate quests.
  
• planting evidence or (I was especially pleased to see you could do this in fallout 3) planting a grenade. (well maybe not a grenade, but something harmful. switching a famous scepter with a fake one. (so I guess some class specific quest content?)
  
• at higher levels: beguiling: letting enemies think you pose no threat, or even are supposed to be there. Imagine a few antagonist being utterly surprised as it turns out you were working for their opponents all along. Why did they bring you? who are you? You could use this creatively, for instance allowing you to lure smaller groups into traps. "I need help! Follow me!"
  

THIS needs to be seen by P:E Developers. Like this guys. This is gold right here. A thief is about more than backstabs and traps. A thief should be able to talk you into selling your mother's soul, or able to point to something in the distance and snap a low intelligence NPC's neck. A true thief is dangerous whether you are meeting him in combat or drinking with him in a pub. A fighter is a warrior, a thief? He's everything else you need.

[Boof]

I just hope the backstab mechanic is brought back. I hated 3rd edition rogues and the ****ty sneak attacks.

[moridin84]

Sixth, unlock skill. If a thief can unlock a door, of course he can lock a door. Imagine that you sneak in a stronghold and want to kill their boss. Before the final battle ,you lock the door of guards' room. So when you start combat with the boss, all the guards are tring to break down their door(maybe need 15 seconds). The tactics become varied by a simple skill.

 

I always wanted to do that, but I don't remember any game with this feature(((

There was definitely a game which let you do this, I can't remember what it was though.

[NoxNoctum]

I hope with the whole soul mechanic thieves can have unique magical abilities just for them... just for example (stealing some of these ideas from other games, pretty much Tome4 )

 

-A spell that lets you phase out of reality partially and travel short distances through walls to appear on the other side.

-A spell that lets you impart some of your "soul energy" to your own dark shadow to assassinate and confuse enemies (think twisted version of Peter Pan)

-A spell that lets you backtrack 3 seconds in time to your previous position, and status.

-A spell that slows time itself for the thief. (so for example, they would get 2 attacks or move twice as far for each attack or move of another character... while also letting them dodge arrows with ease)

-A spell that casts a blinding light that illuminates the surrounding area and blinds any nearby monsters. (magical flashbang)

 

Just a few ideas. Basically magical abilities that go with traditional rogue themes (sneakiness, deadly critical attacks, recon)

 

I really hope they can go beyond typical D&D rogue stuff. I think the class has potential for much much more.

Edited October 15, 2012 by NoxNoctum

[Hormalakh]

How about thieves stealing souls? XD From what I understand in this world, stealing a soul would be the ultimate crime.

[NoxNoctum]

^Yes that''s a great idea. So many cool possibilites gameplay and storwise with that one.

Edited October 15, 2012 by NoxNoctum