The "Boob Armor" and the whole Issue of objectification

[Shadenuat]

I don't understand people who are drawn to fantasy, but show little to no respect or passion for the standing stones of it, one of which is actually medieval history. What is it really that creates and empowering feel of immersion into fantasy world, what are it's roots, it's basic ideas? To see and feel a deadly line of steel in your hand. To have weight of a maille on your shoulders. To touch warm mouth of a horse and feed it a slice of apple. To see warriors clash, recreating hundreds of years old fencing art now forgotten by many. What do you feel when somebody actually waves a steel sword near you, or wears a beautifuly recreated suit of armor? Jealousy. You want to take that sword in your own hands, feel it's weight and balance, and make a few moves, like a kid who imagines a wooden stick to be his sword. Don't you want to know how these things were created and used? Did'd you find yourself bewitched by actually well done fencing moves in games and movies, fluid, fast, without hamfisted hollywoodish actobatics?

 

I mean, come on. Show at least a spark of interest for complexity and immersion which something looking real could provide.

"Duuuh, dis is fantashy, I fatas wana sitonmycouch hiting orcs with cloudsword and romancing hot elvish chicks, hishoty is boooring". ****.

[Archmage Silver]

WHO GIVES A ****. Authors can take WHATEVER artistic freedom they want with THEIR game. Realism can go jump for all i care.

 

This is a fictional universe for godsake. PE is going for a realistic approach, and that's great. But if you wish to extend this sentiment to every game out there, then i cannot disagree more forcefully.

Um, yeah, about that... most of us here are backing this game, so we do deserve a say here, whether that ruffles some feathers or not.

[Stun]

I don't understand people who are drawn to fantasy, but show little to no respect or passion for the standing stones of it, one of which is actually medieval history. What is it really that creates and empowering feel of immersion into fantasy world, what are it's roots, it's basic ideas? To see and feel a deadly line of steel in your hand. To have weight of a maille on your shoulders. To touch warm mouth of a horse and feed it a slice of apple. To see warriors clash, recreating hundreds of years old fencing art now forgotten by many. What do you feel when somebody actually waves a steel sword near you, or wears a beautifuly recreated suit of armor? Jealousy. You want to take that sword in your own hands, feel it's weight and balance, and make a few moves, like a kid who imagines a wooden stick to be his sword. Don't you want to know how these things were created and used? Did'd you find yourself bewitched by actually well done fencing moves in games and movies, fluid, fast, without hamfisted hollywoodish actobatics?

 

I mean, come on. Show at least a spark of interest for complexity and immersion which something looking real could provide.

"Duuuh, dis is fantashy, I fatas wana sitonmycouch hiting orcs with cloudsword and romancing hot elvish chicks, hishoty is boooring". ****.

Fantasy can, and often does, employ very hefty doses of symbolism in its art design - which can often completely discard these so-called historical influences in favor of enhancing a game's story or mood. But this only ever becomes a problem when it's grossly overdone. (which is hardly what we're dealing with on this thread)

 

 

Example of this symbolism

 

Black steel plate. What it symbolizes: Evil. Grossly overdone? No.

Super Spikey black steel plate with glowing runes. What it symbolizes: Very powerful Evil. Grossly Overdone? Yeah. Sure.

 

 

Evil looking wavy daggers. What it symbolizes: This blade will poison what it hits. Grossly overdone? No.

Evil looking wavy daggers that glow green and drip venom endlessly while you're walking. What it symbolizes: Same thing. Grossly overdone? yeah, I suppose.

 

 

Boob Plate. What it symbolizes: female warriors. Grossly overdone? No.

Bikini Plate. What it symbolizes: Sexiness. Grossly overdone. Yes.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Stun

[arrowhead]

I prefer practical looking armor, but I wouldn't mind boob armor if male characters get equally silly looking armor.

[Ieo]

All personal tastes and realism arguments aside, Obsidian already gave the answer with Sawyer's posts and Cadegund (altered, yes).

 

This thing should probably be locked soon.

[D3xter]

I mean, come on. Show at least a spark of interest for complexity and immersion which something looking real could provide.

"Duuuh, dis is fantashy, I fatas wana sitonmycouch hiting orcs with cloudsword and romancing hot elvish chicks, hishoty is boooring". ****.

I'm mostly about exploring new worlds, concepts or philosophies and a good story to boot. For all I can say their best game as Black Isle was Planescape: Torment.

In that game you played as a half-naked undead/invulnerable body with scars all over him:

 

And among your companions you had a flying skull, a Modron, a living suit of armor and a burning man:

 

 

 

Let's say I couldn't give a eff and am actually kind of bored about realuuusm in games at this point and getting similarly bored with recreation of Tolkiens works over and over, "realistic armor" is one of the least of my concerns...

This is a rather good article on that matter: http://poisonedspong...e-architecture/

And something to look at: http://nnm.ru/blogs/...n/daniel_dociu/

 

And their (imo) best game as Obsidian included this thing, which was probably the best and most intriguing companion of all

Edited October 2, 2012 by D3xter

[Badmojo]

NOT-THIS-ISSUE-AGAIN

 

I could have sworn that this same exact issue was made and the mods locked and and said any further talk about this would be posted in the off topic forum because these ALWAYS degrade into yelling matches.

 

Ok, since this popped up AGAIN, then I guess I might as well stir the sludge

 

Since the post title is loaded with "objectification" in it, I will expand outside of just the armur a bit to cover .

 

First, the whole boobarmour thing is probably LESS about sexulizing the character, but to make it easier to recognize male and female characters. Looking at the picture of before and after the boobarmour modification. The first one, obvious female, second one, might be a female, or a dude with long hair and lipstick. Who knows since men and women will look exactly alike now. Remember, these will be SMALL sprites on the screen, the fact is that boobs make it easier to distinguish men from women when they are wearing near identical stuff. Of course, now everybody is unisex, which seems to be the goal of some people on this forum who wish to pretend there is no difference between men and women.

 

Secondly, there is nothing wrong with making characters physically appealing and showing it off. A lot of us (who are no longer teenagers by a long shot) LIKE that feature. It isn't all about horny teenagers, its about a power fantasy setting and many of us enjoy seeing attractive women (or people) showing off skin. People seemed to enjoy it in the old games, but now there is this push from a vocal monority on every single damn forum on the internet to remove anything that offends some fictional idolized politically correct version of women.

 

A lot of people are saying the game is objectifying women. Um, lets talk about "REAL" women. Go to the mall, or better yet, go to walmart if you are in the US. You will get every walk of life (maybe not the uber rich) there and see real women. A lot of REAL women dress showing skin and wearing clothes that show their bodies and highlight their features like breasts, thighs..etc. You think this is accidental? It is on purpose, unless you think they are naive or being forced to wear it. You know those women who are in the military? Yes, they wear military gear in the military, but when out in civilian life they dress in revealing clothes, go to clubs, do hookups...etc. I can agree that in cases of MILITARY or certain religious groups might force women to dress like nuns, in most cases women will use their looks to their advantage.

 

 

I don't think the game objectifies women by making them appealing, I think its just showing reality as is and not some fake politically correct reality that does not exist. I do find it ironic that the game is supposed to be harken back to the old days where the games were created for fun and didn't worry about political correctness. I will be very dissapointed if in order to please one group, they go the censor route and take away things many of us liked, like not worrying about political correctness.

 

Ok, said my peace, mod should move this and combine it with the exact same subject in the anything goes forum.

[Jarmo]

OK, I think pretty much everybody agrees you don't actually need to leave huge amounts of room in the armor,

neither codpiece or boob plate, you didn't need to make armor muscular with little bronze nipples but those crazy greeks did anyway.

 

The point is almost exactly fan service, showing hey baby look what I got.

Only it's not directed to the gamer, but the other people in the game. The wearer wants to shock or look hot.

 

That's not something a normal soldier would do, a mercenary or lord wanting attention might. Depending on the kind of person he/she is.

So the important thing in feature enhancing armour, or mage or rogue wear is to consider the personality of the wearer.

A shy puritan prudish rogue wouldn't go about wearing nothing but belts. Some other kind who'd like all eyes on me now, might.

Not because it's practical, but because it gets attention.

 

 

[so, I went through my Baldur's Gate portraits folder and pulled out some examples of "boob armor." Don't see anything wrong with any of these.

 

 

Third is a clear favourite. That's a costume for high charisma sorceress who's saying you want me in your party, and I always did.

 

The first leaves all cleavage wide open, that's just asking to be killed.

Might be ok ceremonial armour for some princess or priestess, made for show, not practicality.

(and if it's that, it might be very well made otherwise and contain magics useful enough for some later day adventurer to ignore the handicaps.)

+2 to all saving throws, but -1 to AC (compared to other similar suits)

[LadyMuck]

I've posted in other threads and I'll say it again here: for me it's about having options. These types of games allow one to don different armors/clothes and have it show up, to one degree or another, on the character. Therefore, I want options, and I want the options to feel fair. That is, if you want to wear a sexy chain mail top and thong that you found because you think it looks awesome, great, but it shouldn't give you the same AC protection in the game as full plate mail would. Or if you want to wear a frilly cloth nightie, then it shouldn't give you any AC at all, just charisma, luck, charm, something along those lines.

 

I have nothing against "boob plate" or sexy female (or male) clothing being one of a number of options in games per se, even if I think it's too overboard much of the time. I'm not personally looking for the ultimate in reality, all the time. I mean, frankly, I wouldn't mind seeing more silly sexy male options. Most male armor in games is so all-encompassing I can't even see their face anymore, let alone the shape of their butt. But I don't want those to be the only options.

 

Options and balance. A mixture of fantasy and reality, both.

 

I've been trying to figure out how to say just what you wrote. Personally I don't care what someone else wants to see their pc wear, so long as I can choose, or at least craft something I prefer for my pc.

[khango]

I agree that boob-armor is silly. As someone with a bit of European martial arts experience I can vouch for it not making sense.

 

So please, skip it.

 

 

As far as regular clothing goes, though, I feel like there should be room for characters to dress like they act. And if you recruit some rogue from a brothel, maybe she's really repressed and covers up, or maybe she shows a lot of cleavage. It should be a combo of society and character for the normal dress. But armor doesn't need boob-cups.

[Bill Gates' Son]

All personal tastes and realism arguments aside, Obsidian already gave the answer with Sawyer's posts and Cadegund (altered, yes).

 

This thing should probably be locked soon.

 

Then by your logic, the thread about cooldowns should be locked as well since they already made an argument of not altering that cooldown system.

 

And I'm kind of sick of interesting threads being deleted due to a few bad apples. I wish the mods just handle the troublemakers instead of just closing a whole topic.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Bill Gates' Son

[Hornet85]

All personal tastes and realism arguments aside, Obsidian already gave the answer with Sawyer's posts and Cadegund (altered, yes).

 

This thing should probably be locked soon.

 

I'm not sure why realism is brought up at all because there's nothing realistic about shooting fireballs from a wooden stick or having tiny human with pointy ears.

 

Strange why people think the physics of armor should be realistic although people are shooting fireballs at each other.

 

You want realistic armor, then make everyone gets roasted to death in a metal alloy armor the moment they get hit with a fireball or get zapped with a lightning arc.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Hornet85

[Badmojo]

All personal tastes and realism arguments aside, Obsidian already gave the answer with Sawyer's posts and Cadegund (altered, yes).

 

This thing should probably be locked soon.

 

And I hate they caved, now thanks to my own post, I do not see the altered image character as a she, but now as a dude with long hair and lipstick. Maybe they should just remove full body armour all together.

[Shadenuat]

similarly bored with recreation of Tolkiens works over and over

Why does everyone continue to use that retarded argument? Can somebody please lead me to a good recreation of Tolkien-like setting in game? Because I never played a game like that.

Actually, medieval-one would be nice too. Because the only one which even dabbles into medieval people view of world (a religious, myth-heavy and very superstitious) is a bad Czech diablo-clone.

 

A lot of people are saying the game is objectifying women. Um, lets talk about "REAL" women. Go to the mall, or better yet, go to walmart if you are in the US.

Bad times in USA if women in walmart are swordfighting for their groceries.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Shadenuat

[Ieo]

All personal tastes and realism arguments aside, Obsidian already gave the answer with Sawyer's posts and Cadegund (altered, yes).

 

This thing should probably be locked soon.

 

Then by your logic, the thread about cooldowns should be locked as well since they already made an argument of not altering that cooldown system.

 

I'm kind of sick of interesting threads being deleted due to a few bad apples.

 

You missed Gorth's explicit invitation to open only a single thread. Since I'm a neutral party on that count, it made sense to open a discussion thread for it on a different tack (though it's been taken over anyway). Bad example.

 

And my note about this being locked is because the arguing becomes circular opinion. A cooldown implementation discussion is completely different, sorry you can't fathom that.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Ieo

[Badmojo]

I seriously think they should have a option in settings to change the armour/women looks type.

 

- Fully clothed - all, women show no skin, armour is unisex

- moderate - all women dress in mixed clothing (sexy, to fully cothed), armour is unisex

- sexy - all women dress showing skin or sexy clothing, armour is sexy showing some skin and contorts to body

 

Edited October 2, 2012 by Badmojo

[RosesandAshes]

I seriously think they should have a option in settings to change the armour/women looks type.

 

- Fully cothed

 

Only if they do the same thing for the men, fair is fair.

[Badmojo]

I seriously think they should have a option in settings to change the armour/women looks type.

 

- Fully cothed

 

Only if they do the same thing for the men, fair is fair.

 

I edited my options a bit, the page saved my typing before I finish. I honestly have no problem with another option slider to do the same for men. Let people play as they want, they want sexy women, go for it, they want them dressed as nuns, great, want sexy connan dudes, go for it. Options, options, options is what I am for.

[AwesomeOcelot]

I'd prefer a more practical approach, and realistic body shapes. It might make sense to represent the female form on armour meant for females, cod pieces and helmets have some weird and wonderful designs throughout history, it's not a massive step towards having a culture with female warriors having them represent their form and sexuality on their armour. For me it's about the culture and what makes sense.

 

I'm glad you changed the boob armor, you guys might actually be the first to do such a thing, and not try to objectify the female form in such a ridiculous and unpractical manner.

 

Does anyone who uses this word actually know what it means? It seems less and less likely they do. Objectify the female form? That doesn't make a lick of sense. In a ridiculous and unpractical manner? That actually makes less sense, which is quite an achievement, even without considering "unpractical" isn't actually a word.

 

It would be nice to do without boob armour, as I've seen little to suggest it is historical or practical in any way.

 

Neither is women in plate, at least not frequently enough to justify designing armour traditions around them. Also this game is not historical, it's fantasy.

[slopesandsam]

The comments from Sawyer are very encouraging about the approach PE will take to female characters, and how they are dressed.

 

The comments from many other forum members are not. The issue here is not one of realism, it's of equality. The objectification and marginalisation of women in pretty much ALL media is an ongoing issue. I think many people would be surprised at just how much portrayals of anything in movies, games, TV, etc, can affect how they are perceived and treated in the real world. This issue hasn't gone away, and still gets brought up, because it's still a very real issue that needs to be addressed.

 

Expanding further on this will probably be counter-productive. And also lengthy. A lot of stuff has been written about this. But an example I have seen used in this thread was something like, "if you go out on the street you can see women everywhere who have clearly dressed to accentuate their boobs". This isn't evidence that supports your pro-boob armour argument, rather, it weakens it. The whole of society currently screams at women, through computer games, TV, movies, music videos, everything, that their value as a human being is tied to how attractive they are. Any media at all that undercuts that stereotype is a good thing.

 

Obsidian should be lauded for approaching this issue the way that they are.

[Lord Balgeron]

I want the armors and clothing to be like Planescape Torment had. And that means skimpy clothing on females and male armors with big shoulders and spikes. I don't care if this is realistic or practical, its a fantasy genre and it should deliver accordingly - the aesthetics should always be a top priority, otherwise we might as well play as golems.

[Jarmo]

Actually I just chanced my mind.

I was indifferent about it, but now I think this game should have, at least on some characters, real big eyecatching codpieces, on plate armor.

 

Because that would a) be historically realistic, b) be a first in a crpg and c) generate a lot of attention.

Wrong kind of attention obviously, but attention nonetheless. There's no bad publicity, eh?

Edited October 2, 2012 by Jarmo

[AwesomeOcelot]

The comments from Sawyer are very encouraging about the approach PE will take to female characters, and how they are dressed.

 

The comments from many other forum members are not. The issue here is not one of realism, it's of equality. The objectification and marginalisation of women in pretty much ALL media is an ongoing issue. I think many people would be surprised at just how much portrayals of anything in movies, games, TV, etc, can affect how they are perceived and treated in the real world. This issue hasn't gone away, and still gets brought up, because it's still a very real issue that needs to be addressed.

 

Expanding further on this will probably be counter-productive. And also lengthy. A lot of stuff has been written about this. But an example I have seen used in this thread was something like, "if you go out on the street you can see women everywhere who have clearly dressed to accentuate their boobs". This isn't evidence that supports your pro-boob armour argument, rather, it weakens it. The whole of society currently screams at women, through computer games, TV, movies, music videos, everything, that their value as a human being is tied to how attractive they are. Any media at all that undercuts that stereotype is a good thing.

 

Obsidian should be lauded for approaching this issue the way that they are.

 

They're fictional characters, by definition they're objects. Also portraying objectified and marginalised characters is not advocating that in the real world, it's important that the media reflects reality. It's not the media that's the driver of this, you've got it backwards, it's society, you blame the media out of wishful thinking and your desire to impose your will on it. This isn't about equality, it's about a puritanical and authoritarian urge to crush others fantasies and desires. Your ideology isn't based in reality, it's built upon nonsense.

Edited October 2, 2012 by AwesomeOcelot

[Katrar]

My gaming spirit dies a little bit on the inside whenever I read things like, "If I see side boob in a game I immediately uninstall and quietly cry in a corner." The fact that this conversation even needs to be had makes ME want to quietly cry in a corner. I trust the devs to create a world that is textually and visually interesting, based upon what artistically inspires them. Attractive people and alluring clothing can be a component of that equation. I'd rather not play in an Amish inspired fantasy setting, thanks.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Katrar

[Bos_hybrid]

How is this such an important issue?

 

Was NWN2 bad with this? Was FO:NV? I can't think of one time where I went wow Obs, you really over sexualized there in those games.