The "Boob Armor" and the whole Issue of objectification

[Ieo]

I don't see the issue with boob armor, even after reading that one armorers thing about it the only issue I could see he came up with was based off his, apparent, misunderstanding of where the HEART ACTUALY IS. In which case the boob-place actually protects the heart extremely well. Granted the center of her chest would take more direct blows but thats the front ribcage line, not her heart. In the end as long as putting on full plate doesn't result in half naked I think the issues rather minor.

 

Oh and that guy actually used mass effect as a perfect example of 'how to do it'. So again... yeah. Boob armors ok, bikini armor isn't. It's pretty simple, and it's something the infinity engine games didn't have an issue with, nothing Obsidians done I can think of has... so pretty confident they aint gonna mess that up. Also there concept art already had fully covered up girls (granted, yes, boob armor but c'mon...). Also if this is a 'its not fare to women' just... read that armorers article again.

 

You got 0 historical records of anyone making armor specifically for a women ni the first place of that kind. It's a fantasy game. And I know plenty of women who like that stuff. Your personal opinions aren't the be all end all.

 

You're probably thinking of the left ventricle. The thread I linked above has all the relevant discussion. Also, be prepared to be schooled by Sawyer himself:

 

J.E. Sawyer Posted 14 September 2012 - 06:02 PM

 

This is something that's very important to me and I fight for it (practical but good-looking armor on female characters) whenever it comes up. For me, the goal isn't to be prudish, but to be practical and egalitarian about it.

 

BTW, this is a very good site: http://womenfighters.tumblr.com/

 

J.E. Sawyer Posted 27 September 2012 - 10:42 AM

 

It's the consensus of armorers that because breastplates are already layered on top of significant padding and because breastplates are designed to slide blows cleanly away from vital areas, that designing a steel breastplate to follow the contours of breasts is unnecessary and counterproductive.

 

J.E. Sawyer Posted 27 September 2012 - 01:36 PM

 

Jarmo, on 27 September 2012 - 11:09 AM, said:

 

I'm pretty sure significant amount of women would take an armor with boobplate over a standard one.

Because, you know, it enhances. Not all clothing is chosen for practicality, and a lady wearing full plate

might be concerned the hunky fighter boys don't consider her feminine enough. Especially if she has

the "biggest gun" in the whole party.

 

This is a fantasy game, but speaking strictly about what happens in the real world, this almost never happens. Women who wind up wearing armor do need sizing that accounts for their (typically) smaller size and (typically) different body shape, but it pretty much has the same form factor and function as what the men wear. In most cases, it is literally the exact same thing the men wear. It's only recently that body armor has been designed for women, not that you would be able to guess that by looking at it. No effort is made to contour the shape. Instead, they just change the proportions. This was also true of Joan of Arc's armor, which looked virtually indistinguishable from a male knight's armor except for size and proportion. Fantasy outfits are styled to be, well, stylish, but actual people who put their lives on the line almost universally err on the side of safety rather than attractiveness.

 

I didn't like the Mass Effect female boob armour all that much, but I was forgiving because that's science fiction where suspension of disbelief can take into account far more flexible and protective materials than steel plate. (I'm far less concerned about soft leather and cloth, that's for sure. And some boob plate is certainly less annoying than others to me: soft curves are fine, but fully 'skin tight' distinct double-domes with nipples are the worst, FFS.)

 

Project Eternity wants to be a mature game, by the way. And we're not talking pr0n.

[Adhin]

Yeah, not a teenybooper, nor am I refering to Aribeths jiggly armor. Like I said, DAO. 100% Fully covered, same kind of stuff they've already shown in there concept art. Get off your imaginary moral high horse. There is nothing wrong with it, it's not even remotely degrading. Lemmy reiterate this I am not advocating bikini armor. I think that's pretty much garbage if that's how chain and platemail looks on all females because 'lol fantasy'. Its pretty bad. It's also not what there art direction has shown.

 

As far as im concerned if they go a DAO, or hey, I dunno, all the infinity engine games version of armor.. im happy with that. It's a fantasy game, it doesn't have to be super realistic.

 

-edit-

Also, that's not schooling me. That is EXACTLY what I am talking about, exactly what I am promoting.

 

http://womenfighters.tumblr.com/image/21142609298 <--- THIS is ****ing boob armor and it looks great in a fantasy setting and it's part of the crap you just linked as a good example.

 

In fantasy its about making it look nice, and 'reasonable' with out going all crazy half-naked nonsense. Sadly the half-naked gets used way to damn often in relation to plate or chain. It shouldn't. But that above picture? perfectly reasonable and its some nice looking fantasy armor.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Adhin

[Sargallath Abraxium]

Yeah, not a teenybooper, nor am I refering to Aribeths jiggly armor. Like I said, DAO. 100% Fully covered, same kind of stuff they've already shown in there concept art. Get off your imaginary moral high horse. There is nothing wrong with it, it's not even remotely degrading. Lemmy reiterate this I am not advocating bikini armor. I think that's pretty much garbage if that's how chain and platemail looks on all females because 'lol fantasy'. Its pretty bad. It's also not what there art direction has shown.

 

As far as im concerned if they go a DAO, or hey, I dunno, all the infinity engine games version of armor.. im happy with that. It's a fantasy game, it doesn't have to be super realistic.

 

 

...there is somethin' wrong wit' it; it ain't in the least bit realistic an' the only reason ta add it be fer those that ain't known the touch o' anythin' but theyselves...waste o' time & effort that can be used in other areas...

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

[Furiku]

male gaze.

You kind of gave yourself, your purpose and your agenda away there...

So, if you are for total realism, you surely object to women actually fighting (other than the very few that hide their gender?) or being treated equally?

 

 

Anyway, did you come here because of this? http://archive.foolz.us/v/thread/156947574/

 

This is more important than people realize, as it sets the tone of the game. It's this sort of detail that determines whether you treat your audience as intelligent people or 15 year old horn-balls, whether you attract a more mature audience or immature one, whether it's more welcoming to all players or just dude-bros, and whether it's a 'turn your brain off' or 'turn your brain on' sort of game. Some of the most serious, artistic games in the world have been hurt by having an immature depiction of women in their games, as it breaks realism and intelligent analysis on the part of the audience (oddly, these games are often the games to back off when they reach an actual, appropriate time for sexuality. Apparently, they just keep underestimating their audience right and left.)

Boy, you people must hate Planescape and Witcher 2...

I mean obviously they couldn't have a good story, great characterization and likely a "mature audience" with such characters...

This is pure american prudeishness combined with this newfound "feminist movement" discovering videogames, and nothing else.

[Adhin]

...right your making less sense now with your word making. Anyway as per Teo... I agree on the skin-tight stuff. A lot of that just gets out of hand, looks kind of creepy. The picture I linked is a primary example of what I mean by acceptable 'boob armor'... not to be confused with bikini armor which is all bad.

[Humodour]

ugh, people make such a big deal about this...there are a million and one more relevant issues to be concerned with than whether or not an NPC's **** can fit into her breast plate or not.

 

 

Your username is 'NerdBoner'.

 

So excuse me if I flat-out ignore anything you say about gender representation.

[Tuco Benedicto]

I don't care about the objectification hysteria. More often than not that's not even remotely what artists/designers are thinking about, they are more likely focused in making their characters "cool", regardless of the result.

 

My problem with boob armors is actually the same I have with horned helmets and giant pauldrons: they are unbearably idiotic to wear. They just look bad.

[Amentep]

 

As a historian also' date=' I can say probably not, first off women combatants wearing medieval armor (the one we are taking into account here) was rare to begin with. Even the Order of the Hatchet, an actual order of women knights, masqueraded as Men. The point of being, knights or warriors were to be like men, not women. Joan of Arc wore men clothes.[/quote']

 

Mind you, as I recall, part of this is practicality. The two example I can think of Joan of Arc and a noble Lady whose nameI can't remember who led her husbands army to retake their castle while he was away both wore mens clothes when they weren't in armor because chastity was important (and it'd be harder for men to take advantage of them in pants). I believe in both case their armor was men's style armor - in fact I think the Lady whose name I can't remember used a refitted suit of her husbands.

[adamsorkin]

ugh, people make such a big deal about this...there are a million and one more relevant issues to be concerned with than whether or not an NPC's **** can fit into her breast plate or not.

 

 

Your username is 'NerdBoner'.

 

So excuse me if I flat-out ignore anything you say about gender representation.

 

Not sure that "boner" in this context refers to specifically to erect genitalia, but I guess I'll leave that alone.

 

Anyway, I've got no issues with attractive female characters (or male, for that matter) - but it'd be nice to have them wearing practical (or at least, context appropriate) clothing. There's enough eye candy out there that I certainly don't need it in a video game.

 

However, I'm MUCH more interested in making sure the female characters are complete and fully fleshed out (so to speak) - there are enough 1 dimensional damsels in distress, and love interests/character foils, and antagonists in games already. It's always nice for them to exist beyond their relationship to the PC. Fortunately, Obsidian has pretty good track record, at least in my opinion.

[Director]

Doesn't "magic" basically make any "realism" argument irrelevant?

 

If you can enchant a leather belt to provide the same protection as Plate Armour, (or whatever), then realism got thrown out the window a while back.

 

So the only real complaints are "it's sexist" and "tone / art style".

 

Sexism - ok, sure, it totally is. I don't have any problems with that argument. I suspect that most women playing the game, (a minority - face facts), will want their character to be appealing at least to them. I suspect that as long as bikini armour and stilettos of haste are avoided, their requirements aren't gonna be "all realism - all the time".

 

Tone / Art Style - it looks like Josh wants to set the tone for this in a pretty "realistic way", just to perhaps give the game a more authentic historical feel. Certainly all the concept art we've seen seems to support that. Although - as he's pointed out it's a fantasy game, so hey - "magic".

 

TLDR: Lets wait for more concept art before we waste more time on this, Josh is already on board, and also "magic".

[Sargallath Abraxium]

...jebus, this place be lookin' more & more like Bioweenia's forums e'ery day...go hit them up fer more boobies, theys'll do it...

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

[NerdBoner]

Breasts and their depiction, apparently, are now indicative of the quality of a game...

Your username is 'NerdBoner'.

 

So excuse me if I flat-out ignore anything you say about gender representation.

oh no, how will I live without basking in the attention of a single lonely mangina? please, tell me... WHAT WILL I DO?! Edited October 2, 2012 by NerdBoner

[NOK222]

Oh Geez what I have done, I think I did bring BSN back here.

 

 

Blah Blah you're a hipocrite

 

 

None of those two armours are correct at all, nice try. As for the old Black isle games, I'm sure the good devs here are aware of their old style and what not to repeat. I'm not going to call it mistakes, but ten years later it's different and there needs to be a different representation of realistic females in all types of media. Video games included.

 

Also none of those girls are wearing the armor I'm making an issue about, I'm taking about plate and chain mail. What do you guys thing mages and rogues should style themselves?

 

To me it seems ok for rouges to show some skin, it could be their style, a rouge is not an honorable or easy life. Seduction could play here. A "ranger" kind of chick can wear light leather armor.

 

Mages can go anywhere really. The concept pic of the female elf is fine.

Edited October 2, 2012 by NKKKK

[Sarevok]

I guess I am in the minority here - I dig the boom armor. I think it's pretty sexy. And, in a world where magic will undoubtedly exist, I'm not overly concerned about armor realism.

 

Can everyone please watch this video: http://www.collegehumor.com/video/6550847/female-armor-sucks

 

Thanks.

[Director]

I guess I am in the minority here - I dig the boom armor. I think it's pretty sexy. And, in a world where magic will undoubtedly exist, I'm not overly concerned about armor realism.

 

I agree - totally like hot women to look hot. I think they want to give the game a more serious tone but hopefully we get some mages in slinky dresses or something

[Wirdjos]

I guess I am in the minority here - I dig the boom armor. I think it's pretty sexy. And, in a world where magic will undoubtedly exist, I'm not overly concerned about armor realism.

 

I agree - totally like hot women to look hot. I think they want to give the game a more serious tone but hopefully we get some mages in slinky dresses or something

 

Already got you covered, buddy.

[Sarevok]

I guess I am in the minority here - I dig the boom armor. I think it's pretty sexy. And, in a world where magic will undoubtedly exist, I'm not overly concerned about armor realism.

 

I agree - totally like hot women to look hot. I think they want to give the game a more serious tone but hopefully we get some mages in slinky dresses or something

 

So, I went through my Baldur's Gate portraits folder and pulled out some examples of "boob armor." Don't see anything wrong with any of these.

 

[Archmage Silver]

I'm more interested in seeing realistic armors for female characters. It's just so detrimental to the immersion when you have a male paladin in full plate, but the female one is wearing something that leaves half of her chest bare, just waiting for a stray arrow to strike. See: Aribeth, NWN.

 

Nothing wrong with light leather armor showing the figure of the wearer, as long as the armor actually provides protection (no bikini armors, please). When it comes to heavy or medium armors, you really shouldn't see much difference between the male and female variants - that's the realistic way.

[Director]

Already got you covered, buddy.

 

Is that P:E concept art - or just stolen from something else?

 

Actually this argument is even dumber than I first thought - it's not like we'll be able to see any detail on the character models so it's really only the character portraits that we'll be seeing.

[Wirdjos]

Already got you covered, buddy.

 

Is that P:E concept art - or just stolen from something else?

 

Actually this argument is even dumber than I first thought - it's not like we'll be able to see any detail on the character models so it's really only the character portraits that we'll be seeing.

 

I have to admit I don't have great information on the specific piece of art, but the article I linked does seem to claim it is actual P:E concept art.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Wirdjos

[NOK222]

I guess I am in the minority here - I dig the boom armor. I think it's pretty sexy. And, in a world where magic will undoubtedly exist, I'm not overly concerned about armor realism.

 

I agree - totally like hot women to look hot. I think they want to give the game a more serious tone but hopefully we get some mages in slinky dresses or something

 

So, I went through my Baldur's Gate portraits folder and pulled out some examples of "boob armor." Don't see anything wrong with any of these.

 

 

First one is tactically a liability, since the other three are mages, I don't particularly care. The third pic is a bit over the top though

Edited October 2, 2012 by NKKKK

[Metabot]

The problem I have with this politically correct crap is that it's ok for women to have their things that are made for them, but it's not ok for men to have their things.

[Monte Carlo]

The third pic is my favourite, always use it for a mage in IWD. Although she probably gets a bit chilly.

[Furiku]

Oh Geez what I have done, I think I did bring BSN back here.

I don't see anyone asking for transgender, transpecies and homoerotic romance scenes or discussing Cadegundes sweat composition. I'm not sure BSN is exactly big on the rights of fresh air for boobs.

 

Already got you covered, buddy.

 

Is that P:E concept art - or just stolen from something else?

 

Actually this argument is even dumber than I first thought - it's not like we'll be able to see any detail on the character models so it's really only the character portraits that we'll be seeing.

 

Don't worry, uncle Sawyer got you covered: http://www.formsprin...353112176255286

No possibility for boobs in Project Eternity, it would foul the sanctity of this place and be all against neo-feminism ideologies and all that.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Furiku

[Volourn]

I don't care abotu PCness. Boob armour is awesome. And, i have no issue for male codpieces as well for the ladies.

 

People will whine about anything though and PCness sadly wins out in modern times even when its silly.

 

 

Of course, the public likes to pretend humans aren't sexual creatures even though sex/reproduction is one of the main driving forces for our species.

 

But, hey, iit's okay for women to have their soaps with their naked men (thoguh I wathc soaps too for the hot women) and their harlequin romance novels 9which i don't care for).

 

*shrug* Life is too short to worry about inconsequential stuff.