[merged] Vancian Magic System and cooldowns

[curryinahurry]

Never made much sense to me that I'd know perfectly well how to cast Fireball for a year straight, and then because I hadn't picked it for a slot one day, I'd suddenly forget how. That's not how brains work, and if there was some other explanation for what was going on, the games certainly didn't make that clear.

 

Spells are exceptionally complex and consuming, so they are PRE-CAST. Think of those long, long rituals.

 

Basicly, that fireball? You cast it before you got out of the tavern, inscribing it in your brain. It is there, waiting for you to release it with the final words/gestures.

And a mage can only hold so many at once.

Technicly, a mage could try to cast a fireball on the fly, but I don't think your enemies will wait for an hour for you to finish.

 

Makes sense when you look at it like that, don't it?

 

I dunno man, I guess it makes sense, but it still makes me feel like I'm a USB stick :D

 

Indeed!

 

Not sure if anyone else posted something like this as I haven't read through the entire thread but maybe we could go to a hybrid system. Certain spells could be pre-loaded via ritual like turning the ground around your party in all directions for a hundred feet into a sheet of ice slowing enemy movement, or a high level summons, and be cast once per day. This could occur in a camp mode like Darklands where one could also make potions or pray to deities for boons.

 

Other spells could be cast on the fly draining a mana pool or causing fatigue. What I would like to see in a system like this, is no full re-filling of the mana pool or fatigue bar until resting, This would make us manage resources but would also hopefully prevent the problem of resting after every fight.

[Caerdon]

I don't understand this seemingly common idea that this 'Vancian casting' - spellcasting based on memorization - is somehow more tactical that other types of spellcasting. Let's be honest here: memorization rewards metagaming and reloading. It encourages you to prepare for a very specific encounter instead of being able to adjust to changing conditions of the battlefield, which is what tactical thinking is really about, in my opinion.

 

You can prepare any way you want... that's the beauty of it.You cna use multi-purpose spells. Specilzed spells. Mix of spells.

Of cours,e you can say "reload and adjust spells" ... Yes it can be done. But you can also reload if you battle tactics suck. Does that make battle tactics untactical?

Furthermore, if resitng is made difficult/impossible in may places, then you'd have to load a far older save game.

 

Yes, you can fill your spellbook with a great variety of spells so you can be prepared for anything, but anyone who knows what they're about to face, won't do that. Spellbook customized for that particular encounter is just so much more powerful. Metagaming wins, every time.

 

Restricting resting won't really fix the problem. In fact, it just makes metagaming even more beneficial, as you really don't have any spell slots to waste. Besides, there shouldn't be any arbirtrary restrictions, anyway. (Just monsters lurking in the night, maybe?)

 

Of course, metagaming may not bother everyone, but it's a bad thing in my book and something the game really shouldn't reward.

 

The only other system I can think off that would work would be fatigue. Fatigue would re-charge normally, but max fatigue wouldn't - you'd have to sleep.

Which gives you more leavy in which spells you can cast, but also limits how many you can cast a day.

 

 

Maybe a mix of the two. Not sure if having every spell avilable at once is a good idea.

 

Yeah, I'm leaning more and more towards fatigue of some sort.

[Kissamies]

Spells are exceptionally complex and consuming, so they are PRE-CAST. Think of those long, long rituals.

 

Basicly, that fireball? You cast it before you got out of the tavern, inscribing it in your brain. It is there, waiting for you to release it with the final words/gestures.

And a mage can only hold so many at once.

Technicly, a mage could try to cast a fireball on the fly, but I don't think your enemies will wait for an hour for you to finish.

 

Makes sense when you look at it like that, don't it?

Yeah, but how about those spells that would be feasible to cast on the fly like that, like non-combat spells or buffs with very long lasting or permanent effects? Healing spells would fall into this category as well as long as there is no immediate danger.

 

This is actually what I suggested earlier on another thread, I think. Usual spells are cast with lenghty rituals, but it's also possible to "store" a few Vancian style.

[DCParry]

Please, for the love of all that is holy, no memorization system. In my mind, it just rewards more meta-gaming habits. I mean, that's fine if it is your cup of tea, but there has to be a better system that allows for strategic thinking without such obviously artificial restrictions.

[TrashMan]

Yes, you can fill your spellbook with a great variety of spells so you can be prepared for anything, but anyone who knows what they're about to face, won't do that. Spellbook customized for that particular encounter is just so much more powerful. Metagaming wins, every time.

 

Knowing what your'e about to face does not equal metagaming.

 

After all, if I'm going into the trolls lair, it's not metagaming to prepare fire spells.

[Caerdon]

How about a mix between Fatigue system and Vanican?

 

 

For those of you who played Jagged Alliance2, you know how fatigue/stamina worked. It got spent during you walking, running and doing strenious stuff (like traveling around the world).

Your MAX stamina would only regenerate by sleeping/resting. Max stamina delpletes slowly, while "normal" stamina depletes fast and it regenerates by itself constantly.

 

So you start the day with 100 stamina...you travel to the village of Hax and your max stamina is down to 80. You start a battle there and after some running and spell casting you stamina is down to 30/60. So your max stamina is down to 60. Your stamina will replenish to 60/60 as long as your mage catches a breather.

Another fight later your stamina is 10/50....the mages catches his breath for a minute and it's back to 50/50.

 

The lower the stamina gets the bigger the enalties and spell faliure and some spells can't even be cast (or can, but drain your of your HP if you don't have enough stamina)

 

Now, the spells - think of it working as a Mage/Sorcerrer hybrid. You have to prepare spells for the day (you can change spells from your spellbok like a mage) - but once set you can onyl cast those spells, even if you can cast the same spell over and over, as long as you have enough stamina.

 

Sound good?

 

I really like your ideas - except for that final memorization part. It's certainly true that having to pick your spells in advance adds a certain strategic/tactical element to the game, but while you're picking your daily spells, at the same time you're throwing away all the other tactics you could be using during that day.

[Caerdon]

Yes, you can fill your spellbook with a great variety of spells so you can be prepared for anything, but anyone who knows what they're about to face, won't do that. Spellbook customized for that particular encounter is just so much more powerful. Metagaming wins, every time.

 

Knowing what your'e about to face does not equal metagaming.

 

After all, if I'm going into the trolls lair, it's not metagaming to prepare fire spells.

 

I absolutely agree. But without metagaming you don't often know what you're about to face, especially when it comes to the really tough battles - even if you try to keep your eyes open and pry for information. Honestly, were you prepared for Kangaxx or Twisted Rune the first time? Did you reload, fix your spellbook and go back? Did it make a difference? (My answers: no, yes and yes.)

 

Of course, if you've already finished the game, you'll know exactly what you're going to face and you'll know exactly what to memorize. And D&D spellcasters - aside from sorcerers - will benefit from that vastly more than any other class.

[FlintlockJazz]

I dislike vancian magic. Immensely. Just prevent the mana pool from getting too big, systems like GURPS has magic systems that use mana pools while still having immense tactics, it all depends on what spells there are and how they are done (even vancian spell systems can have all tactics removed from them by having the wrong spells involved).

[Totottoro]

Personally I'm hoping they'll do something new. Vancian is perfectly fine and it would have been my answer, but the more I hear from the updates, the more hope I have that PE will be something refreshingly different.

[Living One]

Yes, you can fill your spellbook with a great variety of spells so you can be prepared for anything, but anyone who knows what they're about to face, won't do that. Spellbook customized for that particular encounter is just so much more powerful. Metagaming wins, every time.

 

Knowing what your'e about to face does not equal metagaming.

 

After all, if I'm going into the trolls lair, it's not metagaming to prepare fire spells.

 

I absolutely agree. But without metagaming you don't often know what you're about to face, especially when it comes to the really tough battles - even if you try to keep your eyes open and pry for information. Honestly, were you prepared for Kangaxx or Twisted Rune the first time? Did you reload, fix your spellbook and go back? Did it make a difference? (My answers: no, yes and yes.)

 

Of course, if you've already finished the game, you'll know exactly what you're going to face and you'll know exactly what to memorize. And D&D spellcasters - aside from sorcerers - will benefit from that vastly more than any other class.

But what's wrong with fixing the spellbook that way?If you face a well designed enemy learnining the lesson the hard way can be fun too(if it's an intresting enemy it should be fun enough to study it and learn about its weaknesses even without winning thus the gameover should be pretty easy to swallow).

Edited September 30, 2012 by Living One

[Living One]

I'd prefer Vancian(will explain when I have more time) but i can live with mana or something else.What I really ****ing detest,though are cooldowns.

[J.E. Sawyer]

I prefer the vanacian systme honestly.

 

Not only is it more tacticla and rewards preparedness more, but it also given the gmae gravitas. Having to rest, but the area being dangerous - a tactical decision.

With no mana and HP that replenishes after each battle you have ot make some tough choices.

In tabletop games, the "Vancian" systems do make strategic gameplay more important, but a lot of that is lost in a game with reloading. Especially if the choice of spells has a dramatic effect on efficacy (e.g. did you memorize dimensional anchor before fighting creatures that are constantly teleporting all over the battlefield), failure to select the "right" ones can result in catastrophic failure. In the absence of information required to make informed decisions, those choices aren't strategic; they're just guesses. After a reload, they're meta-strategic, but I doubt most players feel clever for making a retrospectively obvious choice.

[TrashMan]

I prefer the vanacian systme honestly.

 

Not only is it more tacticla and rewards preparedness more, but it also given the gmae gravitas. Having to rest, but the area being dangerous - a tactical decision.

With no mana and HP that replenishes after each battle you have ot make some tough choices.

In tabletop games, the "Vancian" systems do make strategic gameplay more important, but a lot of that is lost in a game with reloading. Especially if the choice of spells has a dramatic effect on efficacy (e.g. did you memorize dimensional anchor before fighting creatures that are constantly teleporting all over the battlefield), failure to select the "right" ones can result in catastrophic failure. In the absence of information required to make informed decisions, those choices aren't strategic; they're just guesses. After a reload, they're meta-strategic, but I doubt most players feel clever for making a retrospectively obvious choice.

 

Well, that is certanly true if the game gives you no possible way to know what is ahead. Usually you can have a pretty good idea what you're facing....usually.

 

That said, while I like Vanacian, it certanly isn't perfect, nor do I think it's perfect for PE (it is impossible for me to make that judgment call)

 

 

 

I'm going to semi-quote myself (with edits) from the previous page, as this it (to me) the best idea I can come up with... I'm sure you devs can do better.

 

How about a mix between Fatigue system and Vanican?

 

 

For those of you who played Jagged Alliance2, you know how fatigue/stamina worked. It got spent during you walking, running and doing strenious stuff (like traveling around the world).

Your MAX stamina would only regenerate by sleeping/resting. Max stamina delpletes slowly, while "normal" stamina depletes fast and it regenerates by itself constantly.

 

So you start the day with 100 stamina...you travel to the village of Hax and your max stamina is down to 80. You start a battle there and after some running and spell casting you stamina is down to 30/60. So your max stamina is down to 60. Your stamina will replenish to 60/60 as long as your mage catches a breather.

Another fight later your stamina is 10/40....the mages catches his breath for a minute and it's back to 40/40.

 

The lower the stamina gets the bigger the penalties and spell faliure and some spells can't even be cast (or can, but drain your of your HP if you don't have enough stamina)

 

 

 

Now, on to spell restriction (not necessary for the system to work, but a possiblility) - think of it working as a Mage/Sorcerrer hybrid...or something similar.

You have to prepare spells for the day (you can change spells from your spellbok like a mage) - but once set you can only cast those spells, even if you can cast the same spell over and over, as long as you have enough stamina. The number of spells should be generous to allow flexibiltiy.

[Caerdon]

Yes, you can fill your spellbook with a great variety of spells so you can be prepared for anything, but anyone who knows what they're about to face, won't do that. Spellbook customized for that particular encounter is just so much more powerful. Metagaming wins, every time.

 

Knowing what your'e about to face does not equal metagaming.

 

After all, if I'm going into the trolls lair, it's not metagaming to prepare fire spells.

 

I absolutely agree. But without metagaming you don't often know what you're about to face, especially when it comes to the really tough battles - even if you try to keep your eyes open and pry for information. Honestly, were you prepared for Kangaxx or Twisted Rune the first time? Did you reload, fix your spellbook and go back? Did it make a difference? (My answers: no, yes and yes.)

 

Of course, if you've already finished the game, you'll know exactly what you're going to face and you'll know exactly what to memorize. And D&D spellcasters - aside from sorcerers - will benefit from that vastly more than any other class.

But what's wrong with fixing the spellbook that way?If you face a well designed enemy learnining the lesson the hard way can be fun too(if it's an intresting enemy it should be fun enough to study it and learn about its weaknesses even without winning thus the gameover should be pretty easy to swallow).

 

With most classes knowing your enemy in advance doesn't really matter too much, but with wizards the difference is huge. That leads to one of two things: either Tough Opponent X is so easy that when you're prepared for generic things and still manage to beat it, it would be a cakewalk with metagaming knowledge; or X is so tough that when you know it, are specifically prepared your spellbook for it and still just barely manage to beat it, you wouldn't had a chance against it without metagaming knowledge.

 

Is that good game design? Not in my opinion. YMMV.

Edited September 30, 2012 by Caerdon

[Merin]

I prefer the vanacian systme honestly.

 

Not only is it more tacticla and rewards preparedness more, but it also given the gmae gravitas. Having to rest, but the area being dangerous - a tactical decision.

With no mana and HP that replenishes after each battle you have ot make some tough choices.

In tabletop games, the "Vancian" systems do make strategic gameplay more important, but a lot of that is lost in a game with reloading. Especially if the choice of spells has a dramatic effect on efficacy (e.g. did you memorize dimensional anchor before fighting creatures that are constantly teleporting all over the battlefield), failure to select the "right" ones can result in catastrophic failure. In the absence of information required to make informed decisions, those choices aren't strategic; they're just guesses. After a reload, they're meta-strategic, but I doubt most players feel clever for making a retrospectively obvious choice.

 

...

 

I think this may be a fairly strong indication that Vancian isn't likely.

 

If so, let's now all join in hoping for Obsidian to come up with a great system of their own!

[sparklecat]

Basically I think the difference is whether the system encourages your character to prepare for an unknown fight in advance, or for you to do so.

[Adhin]

The 'Vancian' as i guess its been called all this time that I've never heard of now, ehh, it never made sense to me. It sounds more like some kinda wand-charge that is, for whatever reason, applied to organic beings. It, ultimately, sounds far more like some kind of bizar, cosmic law forced on existence. That being, it feels to 'gamy' and unless you have a lot of pre-knowledge of the upcoming situation it's, I don't think anyway, to tactical.

 

Also, they don't have arcane/divine stuff. It's already been stated, and is a HUGE theme of the game is peoples Souls. And, ultimately, that's where magic is coming from - your soul. Your using yoru soul to fuel magic. One could go to say any class they have will ultimately be magical in some way even if a fighter or warrior type is entirely due to passives or some such.

 

Either case I can understand a basic 'number of uses' prior to sleeping, but that's basically a non-regenerating mana system. Turning the sorcerer into a single mana pooling and giving each spell tier specific costs (like t1 cost 1, t9 cost 9), then adding all slot in a tier as that number of mana in total... you basically get the same thing but a bit more free-flowing. In the end, I think your souls energy your using to fuel your spells (or abilities) should function the same as health, to some extent. Minus the part where you can bandage it after using it.

 

It's a resource, you use it, when its emtpy you get fatigued/tired. Resting refill it (or whatever system they ahve to mimic the whole 8-hour sleep non-sense). But the forced '3 fireballs' BS is... well its BS. We're not living wands.

 

-edit-

@Trashman: See to me, I would 'love' that kind of system used. Stamina that max-value depletes with continual use. Food/resting (standing around) rengerates it quickly but only rest till restore your maximum cap is great. Put's strain on extended stuff with out heavily impacting direct confrontations. So yeah if any devs are reading this (which, you knw, they are as evidence above) - I'd vote for that system, or something similiar.

 

Dragon's Dogma actually used something smiliar to that for health bars, really loved that but they put WAY to much emphasis on potions over magical healing for my taste. Granted, magical healing was crucial still, only way to rapidly heal up mass amounts of HP in and after a fight with out eating into your resources. Still, lotta potion chugging.

Edited September 30, 2012 by Adhin

[Tauron]

Something that combines the both.

[Adhin]

Yeah already said it in another thread but I think Vancian system makes 0 sense no matter how you try to apply it to a world. It's as gamy of a game system as you can get. Never feels organic or believable. As basic no-regen mana sytem would, ultimately, serve the same basic purpose with out all the awkwardness and forced 'I only memorized 3 fireballs'. I mean, really? the **** do you only memorize 3 versions of the same thing? Sorcerers make infinitely more sense in DnD, wizards are being controlled by some unseen cosmic hand.

 

Also I don't like cooldowns. The second you introduce them the second you get skill rotations as the means to combat. Which is far less 'tactical' and far more button mashy. There should be a resource that's required, that resource should be limited. And rest should be required to get it all back. Someone made a suggestion in the other thread about another game that did a stamina thing where max stamina depleted slowly with use, but you had a quick regen on the bar it self.. so extended outtings resulted in less and less effectiveness but ultimately didn't stiffle your ability to do stuff (unlike DnD where your bad-memoried wizard only had 3 fireballs).

 

So I voted for other, I want a limited resource and spells from different levels (or in general) costing more of that resource. Either it doesn't regenerate or it does but the max value slowly depletes with more use making 'resting' a requirement down the road in either case. Personally I like the 2nd option more with max resource being slowly reduced and requiring sleep to restore. Seems more interesting to me that way, would require less sleeping but still apply that heavy tactical thought to conserving your resources in any given situations since you don't know whats around the next corner.

[Luckmann]

*sigh*

 

This is the fourth time there's a thread like this, and this is the fourth time I will again write out what I want.

 

Non-consuming Vancian memorization, with mana/energy, with cooldowns.

 

Vancian memorization adds the strategic element of letting you pick and choose your loadout and number of instances of an available spell, mana adds an aspect of attrition, and cooldowns make it so you have to pick-and-choose what spells you use and when. Memorize multiple instances of a certain spell if you want to use it many times and activate as many independent cooldowns of that spell as you have it memorized.

 

Regeneration of mana should be, like health, extremely slow or non-existent.

[TrashMan]

Yeah already said it in another thread but I think Vancian system makes 0 sense no matter how you try to apply it to a world. It's as gamy of a game system as you can get. Never feels organic or believable.

 

This is untrue.

How much sense a magic system has depends on the setting and how magic works. You cannot make such blanket statement...well, you can but blanket statement have a tendancy to be wrong. Vanican makes sense..in D&D.

In any other setting..not much.

[Shevek]

No system makes any sense since we are talking about magic. This game is to be a spiritual successor of the IE games. As such, I would argue that the primary concern here should be to include a system that does 2 things:

 

1. Provides the same level of challenge and depth as the IE games

2. Provides the same level of immersion as the IE games

 

In other words, I would hope the devs would approach this from the standpoint of "first, do no harm." We can sit here till we're blue in the face discussing whether a mana system is more or less immersive. We can debate whether or not it aids in suspension of disbelief. My point would be whatever issue there might be with a Vancian system, a mana style system certainly does NOT provide the same challenge or tactical depth (for the assorted reasons already provided by others in this thread).

 

I hope that if the devs do move away from memorization, then some thought is put into what kind of system would work better in their real time/pause world while still providing the same tactical depth. Mana would just feel so wrong too.

Edited September 30, 2012 by Shevek

[TrashMan]

No system makes any sense since we are talking about magic.

 

Why would you say that?

Even magic has to follow it's own laws.

[Matthiasa]

Cool downs are way too arbitrary, as is the Vancian system.

However, I can at least deal with the Vancian system if there is a rest button, which also destroys the whole point of it.

 

My preferred system tends to be a mana-based system with some sort of regain deemed appropriate for balance. Weaker spells costing less than and thus being able to use them to a greater extent, while strong spells would need to be used more thoughtfully. To add a bit of flavor to the mix, spells above a certain threshold could cause damage to fatigue or health depending on the how much above the threshold they are.

 

If fatigue gets below a certain point they pass out for x amount of time. If health gets to low, they again pass out or have the added fun of dying. (Passing out in a fight also likely leads to death.) Thus, when one is low on health, or fatigue, it might not always be the best idea to cast something typically as harmless to the caster as chain lightning, let alone something that is dangerous to begin with like a meteor storm.

 

Of course, the threshold would likely increase, or penalty per amount over decreased, with the skill of the caster.

 

A similar system could also apply to melee characters as well. A powerful melee attack might potentially damage, or kill, to the user, cause them to pass out, or maybe even use some amount of mana.

[Jasede]

Vancian casting is perfect. It rewards planning and foresight, qualities a wizard ought to possess. It also fosters versatility.

Edited September 30, 2012 by Jasede