BioWare Founders Retiring!

[meomao]

Meh. You stated that my colleagues (and in many cases friends) are not ethical people.

 

 

No, don't twist my world to play the victim again: I said that a product Bioware has released was an unethical cash grab and that's different. I'm not blaming any dev (if not the person who are really in charge and knew what they were doing realising a product with a 10-12 months dev schedule) but the company's policy of late. The devs are probably the victim of those policies as much as the players. It's "my" Bioware simply because I always loved and supported your work in the past.

 

Then I would recommend you head to BSN and express it, because frankly it gets a bit repetitive here...

 

Been there done that. I'm sorry if the discussion is looking repetitive: I just expressed a judgement about the latest Bioware game and was asked to explain it. You know, I've seen a lot of similar back and forth about Bioware there during the years... but I will stop if it's OT.

Edited September 26, 2012 by meomao

[alanschu]

A lot of bad PR came with those games even if they were financially successful. EA was also voted worst company in America and I'm sure the bad PR from those games had something to do with it.

 

I'd bet that it's entirely to do with that. Gamers are well "mobilized" on the internet (for lack of a better term) and those scorned by the big banks probably have better things to do (like survive) than go vote on online polls. Yet get some angry internet video game fans a place to direct their outrage, and look out!

 

EA also paid about $800 million for Bioware Pandemic 5 years ago. I'm kind of doubting Bioware has made that back for them or are even close to.

 

Acquisitions represent more than just "did you make that back in profit." I certainly am not qualified to state the intrinsic value of BioWare or the studio(s) which encompass it. As long as EA could still sell us for $800 million, any profit they've made is literally profit.

 

 

If BioWare is serious about their multiplayer component of Mass Effect, they might want to introduce more game modes. IMO, the current MP is incredibly dull because there's basically one mode, and it's the exact same 10 waves (differing only in enemy type) you have to get through until extraction.

 

I agree. I have no visibility into the ME3 plans, unfortunately. Though there may be difficulties due to how it was implemented. I do know that MP has blown away expectations for how popular it would be, so there may be infrastructure issues (either internally, or say through Microsoft or Sony) that complicate things. I spitball this because I'm a bit surprised there hasn't already been some new game modes.

[Nepenthe]

You know, I've seen a lot of similar back and forth about Bioware there during the years... but I will stop if it's OT.

Hence, it's repetitive. There's so many people frothing in the mouth about the unethical cashgrabness of da2 (which is, imo, total bs - it's like you've never encountered either a cash-grab or something actually unethical before) that it's like you're coming off a single assembly line somewhere.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Nepenthe

[Spider]

@alanschu Just out of curiosity, what is your role at Bioware currently? by the way, it's great to have you back posting here again, even if it is mostly about Bioware.

 

@SWTOR The story focus on SWTOR succeeded exceedingly well in doing what it set out to do, getting people who are not normally fans of MMO leveling to actually play a MMO. I myself is a perfect example of that, I have not played any MMO before for longer than two months and SWTOR I've played since release. The problem SWTOR had had nothing to do with the story in the game, but lack of other things to do. Apparently end game was limited at launch, at least for players with a lot of previous MMO experience who cleared the content fast. But I don't think lack of raids is even the biggest deal, but rather lack of things to do between raids. There is also a fairly strong frustration in parts of the community due to the lack of interaction with the development team. There is basically only one way communication, the community teams gives out info when they can, but they choose what to say and when, there is no way for the players to interact with the developers. It doesn't feel like our opinions are being heard. It doesn't bother me quite as much as others, because I'm still having great fun with the game, but it is a sore point for many players (and I can certainly sympathize).

 

What the game would have needed from the start is more frequent content updates, more event type things to keep people actively interested in the game (one each month isn't too far fetched, instead we've had two total), and two way communication. The actual content they release is pretty good and loads of fun, but when there's 5 months between the updates, things get a bit stale.

 

@Other games Bioware has become very uneven for me. JE was a disaster, but ME was pretty good. ME2 and DA:O were great, but DA2 was pretty bad. Filled with some fairly interesting concepts and ideas, but the execution was so poor that it just fell apart. haven't gotten ME3 and just have no real desire to. Nothing I've read makes me feel inclined to get it, not even to see the end of the story. I'm hoping DA3 will be a better game, but won't get it until I've seen a lot of praise from players I know have similar tastes as me.

[Humanoid]

Due to the new assets required, I imagine that minute for minute, TOR's new content is orders of magnitude more expensive than equivalent content from previous MMOs. I remember reading something along the lines of an expansion features summary, listing *one* new planet. Of course, that figure of one is then multiplied by the number of classes, and the light and dark side of each: that's up to 16 times (I know most of the time it'll be shared and be more like two to eight times as much) as much effort in some areas than single-track competitors...

[meomao]

Hence, it's repetitive.

 

I get it: this time it's repetitive. I've already apologized with the mod and closed. For future reference: don't return on the discussion or attack on a personal level if you really want an argument to close .

Edited September 26, 2012 by meomao

[alanschu]

@alanschu Just out of curiosity, what is your role at Bioware currently? by the way, it's great to have you back posting here again, even if it is mostly about Bioware.

 

My technical title is "Quality Assurance Analyst II" which has me as an embed on the digital acting team (which works on developing the conversation and cinematic systems for the Frostbite engine). I'm the principal Quality Assurance guy for the team and essentially run tests on work as it's completed (verifying user stories), as well as designing and running regression tests (both manual and automated) to ensure the team doesn't destroy the build for the whole company (it's kind of bad if conversations just stop working... most teams get blocked), as well as notifying them if the build has been kyboshed by other people (sometimes other changes get made which either block everyone - so don't update! - or there are smaller scale changes that only affect the Digital Acting guys - Hey the GUI changes prevent the conversation GUI from working.... don't update! And fix it!).

 

I'm getting to do a bit more programming which is good, though I'm starting to feel a greater itch to pursue that a bit more thoroughly as time goes on. Need to work on the programming skillz! Although the QA dept has continued to provide interesting challenges and growth opportunities in different ways. QA in many ways acts as a liaison between other teams so I've learned to be more direct and concise when getting updates to ensure communication doesn't get TL;DR'd and stuff like that.

 

As for only talking about BioWare, well this IS a thread about them... I'm more active in the PE forum which is mostly just general yammering. As I reintegrate to the forum I'll likely talk more and more about other stuff. Like XCOM.

[Oner]

Though I do know that some of the skeptics do think I work in marketing. I remember reading a post that stated that my posts on the BSN "clearly" have had editing passes done on them before going live. I took it as a compliment

You have already become one with the marketing machine. You have been EAssimilated.

[Spider]

As for only talking about BioWare, well this IS a thread about them... I'm more active in the PE forum which is mostly just general yammering. As I reintegrate to the forum I'll likely talk more and more about other stuff. Like XCOM.

 

Well, yes. Just meant you're not posting much in other threads (on this forum, the PE one is such mess that it's hard to follow any threads there). But thanks for the description. So if DA3 comes out with wonky dialogues it's your fault?

 

Looking forward to talking more XCOM with you when it's out .

[alanschu]

If there's issues with the dialogue system and how it works, I'll accept responsibility. If you think the content sucks, well that's not on me

[GhostofAnakin]

http://www.nowgamer.com/news/1609815/mass_effect_fan_negativity_was_too_much_for_ray_greg_exbioware_dev.html

 

Apparently it's the gamers' fault Ray and Greg left. The problem with the article, however, is it's speculation based on the theories of someone who is not Greg or Ray.

 

The Bio boards have a thread about the article, with some fans now feeling guilty. Really? If a fan doesn't like a game, he should keep that to himself just so he doesn't hurt the feelings of those making the game? I'll hold back on my criticism the day I'm not paying $60+ to play the game.

[Morgoth]

Game developers have feelings too?

Edited September 28, 2012 by Morgoth

[WorstUsernameEver]

http://www.nowgamer.com/news/1609815/mass_effect_fan_negativity_was_too_much_for_ray_greg_exbioware_dev.html

 

Apparently it's the gamers' fault Ray and Greg left. The problem with the article, however, is it's speculation based on the theories of someone who is not Greg or Ray.

 

The Bio boards have a thread about the article, with some fans now feeling guilty. Really? If a fan doesn't like a game, he should keep that to himself just so he doesn't hurt the feelings of those making the game? I'll hold back on my criticism the day I'm not paying $60+ to play the game.

 

I don't know, I don't think Oster is lying or anything, but he hasn't been at BioWare for a long time so uh, what's he basing that on? Might be they were just stressed because BioWare got much bigger since he worked there and they had a lot of stuff on their plate, plus they weren't as involved in videogames. Then again, now I'm speculating too, so, uhm, maybe it's better that I just shut up.

[Grimlorn]

Funny how Trent Oster thought it was a good idea to put that article out. It's not like people won't harass Ray and Greg more now since they're so sensitive.

 

Seems kind of BS to me, but whatever.

[alanschu]

Meh. Trent's perspective kind of echoes my own (and I don't know Trent haha).

 

Seriously, some of the fan reaction to ME3 is just frankly unhealthy and I've seen a lot of the crap that goes on on their twitters and whatnot. Add in the Jen Hepler stuff just prior and it's easy to say "Our fanbase is a much of twits."

 

I actually started posting on the forums simply to connect with the less insane fans because I didn't think it was good for me at my job to think that our fanbase was a bunch of crackpots. And unfortunately the crackpots are overrepresented in stories and in the media. No one cares about the poster that has well reasoned and polite arguments for why ME3 was a let down, but that guy that goes around stating it has ruined all video games for him or taking complaints to the FTC is a bit

[Grimlorn]

You guys have to ignore that stuff. You guys actually care too much about what your fanbase thinks and you have no one to blame but yourselves for that. All your recent games come off as catering to that forum crowd full of crackpots and now your games and reputation suffers for it. Of course people are going to be vocal about it (their disappointment), you listen to everything else they say. And sad fact is you're owned by EA so you have to continue to churn out action RPGs/games. You'll never be able to make a good classic RPG like PE. And those types of games are what everyone talks about. 10 years from now I don't think anyone is going to be longing for the DA or ME series games.

 

Of course you can't blame fans for being upset at ME3's ending. It made no sense and was crazy.

The Hepler thing was blown way out of proportion by her and a few other Bioware employees who made even worse comments that just fanned the flames. Of course people are going to criticize her for those comments. Just take your licks and keep quiet about it. Those comments made it a lot worse.

 

And these articles that try to throw the brunt of the blame on the consumers are BS. Until Bioware or EA takes responsibility for their actions, none of this stuff is going to change and you'll be going through more PR disasters.

Edited September 28, 2012 by Grimlorn

[Morgoth]

So now that Greg & Ray are fired gone, I guess EAs top management can finally ravage BioWare like vultures ravaging a cadaver without any opposition. Expect more people leaving.

Edited September 28, 2012 by Morgoth

[Wrath of Dagon]

http://www.nowgamer....ioware_dev.html

 

Apparently it's the gamers' fault Ray and Greg left. The problem with the article, however, is it's speculation based on the theories of someone who is not Greg or Ray.

 

The Bio boards have a thread about the article, with some fans now feeling guilty. Really? If a fan doesn't like a game, he should keep that to himself just so he doesn't hurt the feelings of those making the game? I'll hold back on my criticism the day I'm not paying $60+ to play the game.

That is such bull. They themselves decided to sell out, they've reaped the predictable results. I'm all broke up about their feelings while they swim in swimming pools filled with money.

[Zoraptor]

When it comes to listening to fans that is- almost- always damned if you do, damned if you don't. Do listen and you're in danger of falling captive to a vocal minority, don't listen and you're in danger of becoming detached from the very people who are your biggest fans and do a lot of free PR and word of mouth for you. Look at Project Eternity, you have one group who is all for romance and another that hates it with a passion. One group is going to be disappointed and given the nature of the internet they will be vocally disappointed- it's inevitable. I imagine that striking a balance between doing the stuff you want to do, appealing to the right demographics and the people in the community ('fans') is a very difficult balancing act in almost all respects. Probably the only people immune from it are the real niche developers making proper wargames or simulators and the like- groups that have a very narrow fan base and target audience with very specific expectations.

 

I actually think consumers do need to have a look at themselves. I watched and generally enjoyed genre equivalents like TNG and Babyon 5, and when it comes right down to it there was a lot of outright bad storytelling in both of those. Wesley/ Geordi's frequent treknobabble day saving, Bruce Boxleitner winning a war by shouting at super advanced aliens etc. ME2 didn't have the most coherent plot either, what with an imminent threat to earth being destroyed by a single pocket cruiser. The big problem with ME3 was the lack of foreshadowing more than anything, Deus Ex showed that a similar ending can be satisfactory, and there was plenty of closure and pay off for long term story elements in Tuchanka and Rannock. The ending was never going to be Breaking Bad class, yet it seems that many expected something of that quality, set themselves up for it then got angry when their expectations weren't met.

[Volourn]

I thik it's baloney. The BIo dcos have dealt with bashing from the net since the first game they created nearly two decades ago. That's not why they quit, and Ray Myzuka has alreayd blasted such bull**** on twitter. Nontheless, we shouldn't be tkainga 3rd party's word unless the docs claim the same. They stated why they left. That should be enough. Not that it matters b/c if they aren't making games they are unimportant to us gamers. They are irrleevant. Same thing when Cain went on sabbatical. He was completely useless to me. Now, that he's making games again, he matters again.

 

I doubt fan whining or bashing forced them out. That's silly talk.

 

Period.

[Nonek]

Well I may have given Dragon Age 2 a gentle ribbing occasionally, but Mass Effect 3 I didn't buy because my Shep died at the end of 2, and I don't play multiplayer so I can't be blamed for the Old Republic reception either. Not sure i'm comfortable with this attitude of blame the customer, what's it supposed to do in the long term? All I can see happening is an escalation of dissenting opinions, whether that be against the developers or the supposed "haters" who are being blamed for expressing criticicsm, with the usual ferocity prevalant on the net.

[Sargallath Abraxium]

...ya know, it be in threads like this where I's wishes those bowelhives from the Codex would pop in, so's I can trash them an' BIOweenia all in one li'l package...like one-stop-shoppin'...

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

[213374U]

I actually started posting on the forums simply to connect with the less insane fans

Flattery will get you nowhere.

 

And come on, no matter how well reasoned and articulate an argument is, it can never beat a pic of someone crapping on a copy of ME3.

[alanschu]

It's not really flattery lol.

 

I do think there's a problem when I catch myself thinking "fans are stupid" all the time though. Hanging out on the BSN has opened me to a ton of jabs and snide remarks, but in general most of the people aren't actually so bad.

 

And these articles that try to throw the brunt of the blame on the consumers are BS. Until Bioware or EA takes responsibility for their actions, none of this stuff is going to change and you'll be going through more PR disasters.

 

I'll wilfully state that DA2 was a subpar game and we can do a lot better. But you'll never convince me that the way the Hepler situation played out was "overstated." You can't tell me "BioWare shouldn't be surprised people are mad at the ME3 ending" and then somehow prevent human beings from acting like human beings with their personal twitter accounts. I suppose it was eye opening that apparently we need to all behave like celebrities and recognize that many of them can't even use a twitter account without recognizing that people are going to stalk and attack it. I think it's a sad state of affairs, however, when I feel like I shouldn't even bother with twitter because I happen to work for a video game company prevents me from doing other things that human beings often do.

 

That you're willing to make excuses for these people says plenty though. Under no circumstances should the things that were said ever be said to another human being. Though you probably got the nice shiny version that you read about on the internets. All because some people fabricated a position in order to attack her. The whole situation sickens me and while you may say "You need to just roll with the punches" I hold people like Aaryn no ill will for standing up for a friend regardless of his position at BioWare.

[Nepenthe]

I'll wilfully state that DA2 was a subpar game and we can do a lot better. But you'll never convince me that the way the Hepler situation played out was "overstated." You can't tell me "BioWare shouldn't be surprised people are mad at the ME3 ending" and then somehow prevent human beings from acting like human beings with their personal twitter accounts. I suppose it was eye opening that apparently we need to all behave like celebrities and recognize that many of them can't even use a twitter account without recognizing that people are going to stalk and attack it. I think it's a sad state of affairs, however, when I feel like I shouldn't even bother with twitter because I happen to work for a video game company prevents me from doing other things that human beings often do.

And I'm afraid that that's what everybody in Bioware thinks. Ultimately, I greatly preferred DA2 over ME3, since the first was a (simple) stand-alone adventure with minimal links to any greater arc, while ME3 managed to essentially destroy a really great trilogy: In spite of really good episodes in the story, it does come have more *facepalm* moments than any Bioware story I've partaken in, and don't get me started on the endings. Even after the tweaking, they all leave a bad taste in your mouth, you're either forced to sacrifice somebody else due to a contrived plot mechanic to survive, or become a fascist overlord controlling the future of everybody (essentially in the other two endings). I'm sure you've dismissed among others the Tali-effigy building loonies, but people in general do become attached to characters in stories - the main character in an (RP)game being a special case, since it's essentially a player avatar. The psychological impact of what the ending is and was seems to have been completely overlooked, and later misunderstood.

 

Look at me, becoming another one of the broken records...