[Merged] DRM Discussion Thread

[Audiocide]

Forgive my ignorance, but what's so bad about Steam? I've been using it since Half Life 2 came out, and never had any problems, maybe except failing to start in offline mode when I lost my internet connection.

 

It's certainly nothing awful like Games for Windows or whatever.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Audiocide

[Morgoth]

I like my games being gathered in one cosy place. And that one cosy place is called Steam.

[Alecry]

Forgive my ignorance, but what's so bad about Steam? I've been using it since Half Life 2 came out, and never had any problems, maybe except failing to start in offline mode when I lost my internet connection.

 

It's certainly nothing awful like Games for Windows or whatever.

 

GOG is being mentioned because it isn't DRM (for those of us who want our games to be completely DRM-free), and for many and like Steam, you can also have "most of your games in one place".

 

It's just preference.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Alecry

[Stiler]

Gog would definitely be a good place to sell the game. They already have Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale/Planescape and many other good old games (zing!).

 

Also would appease the no-drm crowd on top of that.

[Audiocide]

Forgive my ignorance, but what's so bad about Steam? I've been using it since Half Life 2 came out, and never had any problems, maybe except failing to start in offline mode when I lost my internet connection.

 

It's certainly nothing awful like Games for Windows or whatever.

 

GOG is being mentioned because it isn't DRM (for those of us who want our games to be completely DRM-free), and for many and like Steam, you can also have "most of your games in one place".

 

It's just preference.

 

I bought a few games from GOG.com, and I like it. But yeah, I mainly like Steam because it keeps my PC tidy. The only time I can remember having DRM related problems was when I installed games from CDs or DVDs.

[Humodour]

I've been using it since Half Life 2 came out, and never had any problems, maybe except failing to start in offline mode when I lost my internet connection.

 

This. DRM. **** DRM.

 

Steam is the best form of DRM out there besides no DRM at all.

[Phinelete]

I've opted for the $65 tier pledge - I'm going to lower it if the boxed version ends up being tied to Steam.

DRM free boxed copy, please!

[Phinelete]

This. DRM. **** DRM.

 

Steam is the best form of DRM out there besides no DRM at all.

 

That's pure nonsense. I've lost count of how many times that POS refused to even launch (preventing my from playing), was stuck updating my games for eternity (preventing me from playing) or refused to launch in offline mode after my internet connection had a hiccup (again, preventing me from playing).

 

I've recently switched exclusively to GOG and Gamersgate when it comes to digital distribution. I might occassionally pick up a Steamworks-infested game, but I want to stay as far away from Gaben's walled garden as possible.

 

GOG version is a must!

Edited September 15, 2012 by Phinelete

[MysterD]

I'd love to see this game hit both GOG (DRM-FREE!)

 

So, keep on voting on GOG for this:

http://www.gog.com/en/wishlist/games/project_eternity

[Nonek]

I'd just like to add my vote to this notion.

[Avantenor]

Same here. GOG is a reliable platform and I think its customers belong to the main target group that keeps games like BG, IWD and PsT alive.

 

Would also pledge for releasing it on Origin, just like Wasteland 2.

[AlKim]

Just wanted to say I'm in favour as well. I don't mind Steam in particular but dislike client-based services in general, so I feel a DRM-free option would be great.

 

Please?

[Ink Blot]

PLEASE don't turn this into a discussion about the pros and cons of Steam. If you use Steam and would like to see the game on Steam, that's wonderful: you already have your wish.

 

This thread was created to ask Obsidian to consider other possibilities for those of us that would prefer a DRM-free option.

[Tallin Harperson]

Forgive my ignorance, but what's so bad about Steam? I've been using it since Half Life 2 came out, and never had any problems, maybe except failing to start in offline mode when I lost my internet connection.

 

It's certainly nothing awful like Games for Windows or whatever.

I like my games being gathered in one cosy place. And that one cosy place is called Steam.

 

I also like to have all my games in one place, and that's gog.com. No one's saying you can't have it on Steam, or that we hate Steam (though some do, I know), so don't turn this into a war. Some of us just prefer other distributors (for various reasons).

[c01mhth10ch]

I'm was about to donate on kickstarter then I said to myself: "wait, what if there is no DRM free option". So yeah, I would prefer GOG.com, but if that's not doable atleast some other form of DRM free is required for me to donate, since I consider STEAM drm heavy. I'm waiting for additional info about this issue bfore I donate.

 

p.s. I just bought whole plack of RPG games from GIG.com yesterday and half of them is mentioned in your kickstarter video

[TemplarLord]

Between Steam and GOG?

 

GOG anytime. Not to say that Steam is not okay, but with GOG you get all these extras and no DRM!

[Kloreep]

I Nth this motion. GOG is my favorite distributor by far. Still considering a pledge, being able to get my copy on GOG would definitely push me to do it.

 

So, keep on voting on GOG for this:

http://www.gog.com/e...roject_eternity

 

Awesome, will do.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Kloreep

[quasimodo]

I am also considering the $65 tier, but only if the boxed version does not have online activation. I collect games and replay them often. If I buy a disc I want to be able install and play it 10 years from now without having to worry about DRM.

[Nefastus]

I'm in favor of whatever allows games like this to be made from an economic perspective. If that's DRM, that's a fairly small price to pay in my opinion.

 

That's a fair opinion, but I doubt the inclusion of DRM 'allows' games to be made--it's a higher-level business decision that has to do with protecting subsequent IP rights. I'm sure there's licensing to use extant DRM systems and different other costs, like online registration and activation systems that require server maintenance.

 

Not to mention that there is a HUGE variety of DRM and some forms are far more insidious than others; I am not against DRM per se, but I'm not touching SecuROM with a---any length of pole. I tolerate online activation or registration for most things because those are one-time. A disc-check on the physical copy is easy. Or a key tied to one's payment. Steam is unique in that it's both DRM and a distribution system, but the DRM is constant-checking (well, Steam must be running) judging by what others have said, so I personally think that's less ideal than any one-time system.

 

So while I don't believe DRM has anything to do with 'allowing' game development, the other argument is that companies will want DRM to protect future interests and maintain profitability. However: THIS project is being crowdsourced. (I kind of think Kickstarter pledgers, especially those at a certain threshold, should get a DRM-free digital download on a point of faith for having invested. Everyone else afterwards can be shepherded to Steam or whatever.)

 

Don't get me wrong, I'll still most likely pledge despite this initial imperfect digital offering, maybe even do the box version, but I'm hoping there will be more information about stuff before the Kickstarter end.

 

I admit, I am not well informed about either the technical or economic aspects of DRM today, but piracy is still a huge issue that can severely hamstring game developers--especially piracy outside North America. If anything, larger companies can better afford to absorb losses due to piracy than smaller, independent companies that are self-publishing. I realize that there is debate over whether DRM actually does much of anything to ameliorate the piracy problem, but economic factors are the biggest things that have kept games like these from being made the last decade or so. So if Obsidian looks at the pros and cons and determines that they can be more profitable with DRM, then I'm all in favor because that means more money for development and therefore a better game for us. I don't like DRM either from a practical point of view, but not getting awesome games like Project Eternity and such because piracy makes games that lack mass appeal unprofitable is a much worse option.

 

Certainly there are different types and levels of DRM too, and I'm sure a consumer-oriented company like Obsidian--especially for a crowd-sourced game--will take that into account too.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Nefastus

[Phinelete]

I am also considering the $65 tier, but only if the boxed version does not have online activation. I collect games and replay them often. If I buy a disc I want to be able install and play it 10 years from now without having to worry about DRM.

 

Same here, I simply refuse to go for the $65 tier and beyond if the boxed version is bound to require a Steam account.

[Badmojo]

I love steam and its the only DRM I accept, gog is really good and is DRM free, so obsidian might consider putting it on there also.

[LadyCrimson]

I disliked early versions of Steam and refused to use it for ages, but it's become tolerable to me in the past couple years.

That said, I still prefer not to use Steam when it's an option and I would definitely be up for and pay extra for a GoG version.

[Ieo]

I'm in favor of whatever allows games like this to be made from an economic perspective. If that's DRM, that's a fairly small price to pay in my opinion.

 

That's a fair opinion, but I doubt the inclusion of DRM 'allows' games to be made--it's a higher-level business decision that has to do with protecting subsequent IP rights. I'm sure there's licensing to use extant DRM systems and different other costs, like online registration and activation systems that require server maintenance.

(snip)

Don't get me wrong, I'll still most likely pledge despite this initial imperfect digital offering, maybe even do the box version, but I'm hoping there will be more information about stuff before the Kickstarter end.

 

I admit, I am not well informed about either the technical or economic aspects of DRM today, but piracy is still a huge issue that can severely hamstring game developers--especially piracy outside North America. If anything, larger companies can better afford to absorb losses due to piracy than smaller, independent companies that are self-publishing. I realize that there is debate over whether DRM actually does much of anything to ameliorate the piracy problem, but economic factors are the biggest things that have kept games like these from being made the last decade or so. So if Obsidian looks at the pros and cons and determines that they can be more profitable with DRM, then I'm all in favor because that means more money for development and therefore a better game for us. I don't like DRM either from a practical point of view, but not getting awesome games like Project Eternity and such because piracy makes games that lack mass appeal unprofitable is a much worse option.

 

Certainly there are different types and levels of DRM too, and I'm sure a consumer-oriented company like Obsidian--especially for a crowd-sourced game--will take that into account too.

 

What losses? You need to keep in mind that this is a crowdsourced project, so the "losses" you describe exist only in the traditional publishing systems---physical materials and storage, marketing channels, and the initial private funding. None of those three apply here because (1) nothing should be pre-printed nor brick-n-mortar leased, only post-printed using existing consumer payment; (2) you don't get more "free marketing" than the internet; (3) this is a public venture, and Kickstarters are not beholden to behind-the-scenes investors that funded a startup corp. (Yes, Obsidian is a bit different because the studio existed prior as a/part of a corporate entity, but I'm treating them as a true crowdsource initiative in every sense.)

 

Now, the other side of the coin is "lost potential," and only that argument can make any bit of legal sense; yes, I've seen the numbers regarding bootleggers, and it really sucks. But I'm very familiar with the black marketing in China, the biggest scene for such things, for both professional and personal reasons; let me put it this way: Under no circumstance will any IP protection be effective on a global scale unless federal-level trade initiatives, rife with dangerous econo-politicking, are leveraged against one of the biggest hostile powers (to the U.S., yes). Do you think that will be successful? No, of course not. China in particular already owns, literally, much of the American economy. So in the end, what does DRM really do? From a practical standpoint, only legitimate buyers will ever see and deal with it. This is not an ideal scenario at all. This is also why I refuse to ever buy an Adobe product ever again, but I digress...

 

I'm genuinely curious how you think the business decision-making surrounding DRM implementation has actually prevented game creation in the past decade--were there dev interviews, articles posted somewhere? Because from the business side, the only logical reason I can think of to not invest in a game is the basic economic standard "Will it generate enough revenue to cover initial investment and turn relevant profit?"

 

 

I am also considering the $65 tier, but only if the boxed version does not have online activation. I collect games and replay them often. If I buy a disc I want to be able install and play it 10 years from now without having to worry about DRM.

 

Same here, I simply refuse to go for the $65 tier and beyond if the boxed version is bound to require a Steam account.

 

I didn't know that was even possible, tying a physical disc to a Steam account. Ew. And good point about the online activation on a disc for future replayability. Considering how long the Infinity Engine oldies have lasted, this is a real issue to keep in mind.

 

In the end, I decided to pledge for the box version. I'm hoping, per Nefastus' assumption as well that Obsidian is a "consumer-oriented company," and that whatever DRM implemented is consumer-friendly*. A simple disc check on the box would be quite tolerable to me.

 

 

* Of course, some will say that DRM on its face is never consumer-friendly, but that's economic argument when I'm just being practical about game play access.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Ieo

[actionjezus6]

GoG version would be very nice - even if it means coughing up a few bucks more.

[Archon]

Indeed, that would be great. But for now GOG.com have set a price limit at $20 for indie games.

Project Eternity will be $25 so not on GOG unless there's some changes on their price policy before 2014.