Dragons.

[Frank the bunny]

Ok first off, allow me to introduce myself, as I just joined this forum a few minutes ago, and cannot find the "introduce yourself" section, if there even is one. I am Frank (yes that rabbit from Donnie Darko), some of you may know me from community discussion over at the Bethesda forums, if so, hit me up! It's scary over here.

 

Now on to the actual topic: Dragons. I'm making this thread because, well, I haven't really seen this addressed anywhere and the fine folks over at Obsidian are *gasp* actually listening the the fans!

 

So Dragons. Big reptilian fire breathing monsters, arguably one of the more defining symbols of the fantasy genre. Just a few thoughts I'd like to share concerning them in Project Eternity. First - Will they be making an appearance (and I mean at all, not necessarily in the game, lore as well)? Perfectly understandable if you folks don't want to spoil it. But if they are in... may I throw a few words in?

 

In my humble opinion, Dragons should be treated as... well, Dragons. Meaning, if they are indeed present in the world, they should be rare. Extremely rare. Here out my reasoning - When Bethesda announced they were doing Dragons for Skyrim, I was pretty excited, and from a game play perspective, they worked... for the most part. What they did horribly wrong is they made Dragons common. The largest and most powerful foes in the game world (which they should be) were also extremely common to the point of becoming mundane. Please do not do this. Matter of fact you guys should only do one or two of them at the most. Dragons are enormous, powerful, and majestic creatures and should be treated as such within the world, arguably as I said before being among the rarest and most challenging of monsters.

 

Now this thread should be an ongoing discussion of these creatures (unless I'm shot down ), so what does the community of Obsidian think? I very much hope one you more prominent developers read this and heed what I say - unless I'm intruding on your creation.

 

Peace.

Edited September 16, 2012 by Frank the bunny

[Tale]

Technically, dragons were one of the first things to appear related to the project. The Ouroboros symbol. Now, does this mean something is already planned for our scaly friends? Are they intended to be present or merely symbolic within?

 

You've got me wondering. I won't miss them if they're gone. Maybe Obsidian is trying to make a totally original fantasy setting that avoids the typical trappings. I can support that. But I'm curious about the symbol and its dragon.

[NateOwns]

I agree with you. I think DA:O did dragons fairly well there were only a few dragons in the whole game and they were fairly powerful. I think that's the best route for including dragons in the game.

[fkldnhlsdngsfnhlsndlg]

Can we maybe just not have dragons in a fantasy game? Please?

[Volourn]

Yup. I like dragons. As long as they are treated with the respect they deserve, and are worthy adversaries (or allies0 both in and out of combat it be sweet. I'd like a dragon dominated city state ruled by one. The dragon in question - depending how the world handles them - doesn't need to have to be a 'tyrant' either. Imagine a silver dragon running a city. It would be sort of utopia but with its own issues of some sinister group looking to overthrow said dragon plus a LG silver dragon no doubts views thing different than a LG human or a LG dwarf so there cna be conflict there too.

 

 

"Can we maybe just not have dragons in a fantasy game? Please?"

 

Many fantasy games don't have dragons. *shrug* Dragons are awesome and they makes (if handled right) awesome by being in them.

Edited September 16, 2012 by Volourn

[Frank the bunny]

Technically, dragons were one of the first things to appear related to the project. The Ouroboros symbol. Now, does this mean something is already planned for our scaly friends? Are they intended to be present or merely symbolic within?

 

You've got me wondering. I won't miss them if they're gone. Maybe Obsidian is trying to make a totally original fantasy setting that avoids the typical trappings. I can support that. But I'm curious about the symbol and its dragon.

 

Wasn't sure if it was a snake or Dragon...

Can we maybe just not have dragons in a fantasy game? Please?

 

I'd be perfectly fine with this to.

[Badmojo]

Can we maybe just not have dragons in a fantasy game? Please?

 

The only thing I am more tired of than dragons is elves and dwarves.

[WDeranged]

Dragon Age (and Skyrim to a lesser degree) failed to do justice to dragons, they're supposed to be something ancient and mysterious, relentlessly alien and terrifying...unfortunately I'm burnt out on them now, I wouldn't mind just the one but it would have to be something really special for me not to shrug at it.

[Gazoinks]

I liked how in Arcanum dragons were extinct, but you met a bunch of pseudo-dragons. Maybe something similar to that, with the one remaining dragon being met late in the game or something?

[LadyCrimson]

Good point, that dragons in games should be rare - unless, of course, it's a game about dragons, or there's a dragon playable race (MM8...). Anyway...I don't mind and kinda like seeing them in games, but I do want them to be more of a special event. Not just an enemy you encounter every time you cross a road.

 

You've got me wondering. I won't miss them if they're gone. Maybe Obsidian is trying to make a totally original fantasy setting that avoids the typical trappings. I can support that. But I'm curious about the symbol and its dragon.

Perhaps it's a world where dragons used to be common but then they all disappeared/went extinct for some reason ... but they're still a big part of the lore/culture in terms of symbols, rituals, legends/prophecy, and so on.

[LadySpace]

"Dragons" as in rare, magically powerful, incredibly interesting creatures who are defined as being different from gods or spirits by being both wholly corporeal and distinctly nonhuman, thus lending an air of power, menace, and wild wisdom to what would otherwise be a bog-standard "large enemy" archetype? Yes, please.

 

"Dragons" as in big angry winged fire-breathing lizards? Meh, I could go without pretty easily.

Edited September 16, 2012 by LadySpace

[Gazoinks]

Good point, that dragons in games should be rare - unless, of course, it's a game about dragons, or there's a dragon playable race (MM8...). Anyway...I don't mind and kinda like seeing them in games, but I do want them to be more of a special event. Not just an enemy you encounter every time you cross a road.

 

You've got me wondering. I won't miss them if they're gone. Maybe Obsidian is trying to make a totally original fantasy setting that avoids the typical trappings. I can support that. But I'm curious about the symbol and its dragon.

Perhaps it's a world where dragons used to be common but then they all disappeared/went extinct for some reason ... but they're still a big part of the lore/culture in terms of symbols, rituals, legends/prophecy, and so on.

^Ooh, I like this. Could tie into the Orobouros they've been using as a logo, too. Developing on this concept, what about a world falling apart? The dragons were basically gods/spirits, but they vanished. Since then the world's been sliding towards its doom, as some people still worship the dragons to try to get them to come back, and some people turn to darker gods..

 

Of course, I'm sure whatever they do will be completely different, but still.

 

"Dragons" as in rare, magically powerful, incredibly interesting creatures who are defined as being different from gods or spirits by being both wholly corporeal and distinctly nonhuman, thus lending an air of power, menace, and wild wisdom to what would otherwise be a bog-standard "large enemy" archetype? Yes, please.

 

"Dragons" as in big angry winged fire-breathing lizards? Meh, I could go without pretty easily.

Yeah, I agree. I think the best route is to take inspiration more from the Eastern nature spirit-esque godish dragons, as opposed to the Western ones.

Edited September 16, 2012 by Gazoinks

[LadyCrimson]

"Dragons" as in rare, magically powerful, incredibly interesting creatures who are defined as being different from gods or spirits by being both wholly corporeal and distinctly nonhuman, thus lending an air of power, menace, and wild wisdom to what would otherwise be a bog-standard "large enemy" archetype? Yes, please.

 

"Dragons" as in big angry winged fire-breathing lizards? Meh, I could go without pretty easily.

I always liked the "dragons" in that one book series ... um ... the name escapes me ... by Anne McCaffery? Where they were intelligent, emotional, loyal/bonded. I'd much prefer intelligent dragons that have some importance to the story/plot than dragons that always seem to have to be an enemy to be fought. But eh....I also enjoy an occasional dragon steak for dinner.

[WDeranged]

Good point, that dragons in games should be rare - unless, of course, it's a game about dragons, or there's a dragon playable race (MM8...). Anyway...I don't mind and kinda like seeing them in games, but I do want them to be more of a special event. Not just an enemy you encounter every time you cross a road.

 

You've got me wondering. I won't miss them if they're gone. Maybe Obsidian is trying to make a totally original fantasy setting that avoids the typical trappings. I can support that. But I'm curious about the symbol and its dragon.

Perhaps it's a world where dragons used to be common but then they all disappeared/went extinct for some reason ... but they're still a big part of the lore/culture in terms of symbols, rituals, legends/prophecy, and so on.

^Ooh, I like this. Could tie into the Orobouros they've been using as a logo, too. Developing on this concept, what about a world falling apart? The dragons were basically gods/spirits, but they vanished. Since then the world's been sliding towards its doom, as some people still worship the dragons to try to get them to come back, and some people turn to darker gods..

 

Of course, I'm sure whatever they do will be completely different, but still.

 

"Dragons" as in rare, magically powerful, incredibly interesting creatures who are defined as being different from gods or spirits by being both wholly corporeal and distinctly nonhuman, thus lending an air of power, menace, and wild wisdom to what would otherwise be a bog-standard "large enemy" archetype? Yes, please.

 

"Dragons" as in big angry winged fire-breathing lizards? Meh, I could go without pretty easily.

Yeah, I agree. I think the best route is to take inspiration more from the Eastern nature spirit-esque godish dragons, as opposed to the Western ones.

 

I agree, I like the idea of dragons being something different, and I especially like the idea of them being dead or dissipated, more of an underlying force behind something grand.

[Frank the bunny]

I honestly wouldn't mind them as a long extinct race either... as long as they stay that way. THE DRAGONS SHALL RISE AGAIN is just so... cliche.

[Volourn]

yeah, I agree. They should exither be around or not be. None of this 'comeback' nonsense.

[Humanoid]

For once I want a myth or legend in a video game to turn out to be false.

[mkreku]

I want dragons. And sparkly vampires. Mostly sparkly vampires. Can I have that? Please?

[Gazoinks]

For once I want a myth or legend in a video game to turn out to be false.

Arcanum did that, more or less.

[Gorth]

I want dragons. And sparkly vampires. Mostly sparkly vampires. Can I have that? Please?

Evil, begone!

[oldmanpaco]

I want to be a dragon. Or a unicorn. No a dragon.

[Gamgee]

How about the serpent is really a giant serpent for once! Or a snake wurm thing or something. Don't play it so straight and obvious, be boring as hell. Sick of dragons!

[aVENGER]

Guys, keep in mind that if Eternity is going the be a franchise, the first game will probably focus on lower levels (1-10).

 

It's not realistic to expect dragons in the very first installment.

[silvercross]

Guys, keep in mind that if Eternity is going the be a franchise, the first game will probably focus on lower levels (1-10).

 

It's not realistic to expect dragons in the very first installment.

 

We don't always have to kill everything we meet, ya know?

[Firr`o`nox]

Some thought on the matter.

 

I totally agree with users who say that dragons are better to be something bigger and deeper than ordinary monster you meet around every corner, and that it should be something more than dumb lizard.

 

I think dragons should be both spiritual, wise and powerful. If they appear - they should be intelligent and not dumb beasts scoring lots of XP for killing them.

They could be for example similar to angels or demons of christian lore (btw some angels - seraphims - are described similarly to dragons - as being fairy serpents), or similar to Lungs of chinese mythology and buddhist lore.

They could be keepers of balance or some such.

Or protagonist could be a dragon (in an important, relevant kind of way - not just get some fairy breath or fusrodah everyone). He could be one in a spiritual way - why not?

If they are given an important role in the game lore - that's perfect.

 

But if they are going to be dumb meat - then better leave them out.

 

Dragons are an important archetype, and similar dragon imagery and ideas are met in totally different cultures and countries all over the world. So if made correctly it is better to include them.

 

I myself would really like that dragons be a part of the game world. I like them and admire the symbol they represent - spiritual realisation and transcendence of mind over matter. I also like them as a symbol of power. And I love them as an all-time badass creatures of every good fantasy and myth.

 

People love non-human characters - like Morte and Nordom.

I still remember Firkraag the red dragon!

Just make dragons right - and people will love them too.

 

Actually I bet that everyone who played games with interesting dragon characters, remember them. The only problem is that there is just too little good games with dragons as developed characters.

 

Summary:

If you can make them right - and I know you can - better include them. Cause they're awesome!

 

P.S.

And if player can transform into one (for example as in Neverwinter Nights 1 - there was a spell for that) that will be extra sweet!