Mass Effect 3

[GhostofAnakin]

It could have been fun having a growing crowd of bickering military personnel in that unused meeting room next to the comm room, comparing military priorities and philosophies (and insults). A wasted opportunity?

 

Even if Shepard's actual interaction (ie. dialogue) with them is very limited, I agree that just having them there with some background banter going on when Shepard walks through would have added to the atmosphere.

[Orogun01]

 

I think that's the thing about ME3, there were a lot of nice touches scattered around, bits and pieces that felt great or were perfectly suited to the background points... So it makes it feel even more bizarre when you have all those missing or skewed elements that just don't feel good.

So it was the average BW experience?

[Janmanden]

I wouldn't call it average, but definitely mixed.

[GhostofAnakin]

I think that's the thing about ME3, there were a lot of nice touches scattered around, bits and pieces that felt great or were perfectly suited to the background points... So it makes it feel even more bizarre when you have all those missing or skewed elements that just don't feel good.

So it was the average BW experience?

 

This was my first BioWare experience where I came away wondering if the writers were on acid when they came up with that ending.

[greylord]

I think that's the thing about ME3, there were a lot of nice touches scattered around, bits and pieces that felt great or were perfectly suited to the background points... So it makes it feel even more bizarre when you have all those missing or skewed elements that just don't feel good.

So it was the average BW experience?

 

This was my first BioWare experience where I came away wondering if the writers were on acid when they came up with that ending.

 

Actually...yes...yes they were. Well...the two that worked on the ending...the others weren't, but they didn't get asked to write the ending either....

 

(Just so you know, the above is a joke)

[Orogun01]

I think that's the thing about ME3, there were a lot of nice touches scattered around, bits and pieces that felt great or were perfectly suited to the background points... So it makes it feel even more bizarre when you have all those missing or skewed elements that just don't feel good.

So it was the average BW experience?

 

This was my first BioWare experience where I came away wondering if the writers were on acid when they came up with that ending.

This was my first BioWare experience where I came away wondering if I was on acid.

 

Honestly though, consistency has never been one of BW's strong suits. They often struggled with maintaining a cohesive story and as their games became larger we began seeing the rips.

[Aedelric]

No.

 

Alien Ressurrection actually was decent. No Aliens, but LUCKILY no alien 3.

 

Alien 3 was the fiasco...

 

That is a far stretch from my and many many others (Check its reviews) view, including the writter Josh Wheldon himself.

 

"It wasn't a question of doing everything differently, although they changed the ending; it was mostly a matter of doing everything wrong. They said the lines...mostly...but they said them all wrong. And they cast it wrong. And they designed it wrong. And they scored it wrong. They did everything wrong that they could possibly do. There's actually a fascinating lesson in filmmaking, because everything that they did reflects back to the script or looks like something from the script, and people assume that, if I hated it, then they

Edited April 10, 2012 by Aedelric

[Zoraptor]

I really do think that Bioware has a very large problem with planning, and it's a good point that it's more apparent as they have grown larger. And it's not just internal planning of the titles themselves leading to a certain amount of inconsistency verging on incoherence at times but of the series' storyline as a whole. Much of the background stuff is actually good quality and reasonably consistent over all three games- such as the whole Geth/ Quarian and Salarian/ Krogan issues- and it is telling that these are perhaps the best overall story bits of ME3 as well. The main storyline on the other hand seems to have been to a large extent made up on the spot one game at a time with major plot points (crucible/ catalyst) appearing from the aether at the start of ME3 with no foreshadowing previous. The whole plot of ME2 is only tangentially related to either of the others so much so that it might have been better as ME: Renegade rather than ME2* and while I do not have a fundamental issue with that, good storytelling does dictate that you really ought to set up important stuff relevant to the continuing plot in the previous title(s) rather than springing it with barely more than a "hey guys!" one mission into the final game. Even that refugee from a bad Dragonball Z cosplay might be a bit more palateable were he introduced better and it's not like ME2 lacked for potential interaction with Cerberus operatives.

 

*And use 'ME2' to expand the build up to war more so that you start off with more war assets and with the Crucible under construction before the reapers hit.

[Orogun01]

I personally don't think that BW had an idea of how the story would should play out and were making it up as the went along. The Crucible it's literally a quintessential Deus Ex Machina, a device whose plans are passed down through previous generations with it's origins shrouded in mystery (point of clarification: IIRC in the Ashes DLC it's pointed that the Crucible wasn't actually invented by the Protheans but passed down from the previous cycle) It's a plot device specifically made to do two things solve a messy trilogy and make up for the lack of writing consistency among the series.

So the Crucible may have been a last minute solution to their poor planning.

[Nepenthe]

They often struggled with maintaining a cohesive story and as their games became larger we began seeing the rips.

Larger... than Baldur's Gate 2?

 

I think you didn't think that one quite through.

[GhostofAnakin]

I personally don't think that BW had an idea of how the story would should play out and were making it up as the went along. The Crucible it's literally a quintessential Deus Ex Machina, a device whose plans are passed down through previous generations with it's origins shrouded in mystery (point of clarification: IIRC in the Ashes DLC it's pointed that the Crucible wasn't actually invented by the Protheans but passed down from the previous cycle) It's a plot device specifically made to do two things solve a messy trilogy and make up for the lack of writing consistency among the series.

So the Crucible may have been a last minute solution to their poor planning.

 

As much of a cop out as it is, I don't actually have that much of an issue with the Crucible being used as a plot device to lead toward the end game. Really, for me the story sunk into the realm of the ridiculous when Shepard got lifted up to see the Starchild, and the Starchild started babbling on about his nonsense.

 

If the game has ended at around the point Shepard opened the Citadel's arms and fired the Crucible before sitting down next to a dying Anderson, then went straight to the ending cinematics with the destruction of the Reapers (minus the nonsensical Joker and Normandy flying off scene) and the ground forces cheering, I would have left the game thinking, "alright then. Not great, but not terrible". Instead, I left the game thinking "What the ... ahgaohghaohgheoe!"

[213374U]

I really do think that Bioware has a very large problem with planning, and it's a good point that it's more apparent as they have grown larger.

Makes sense, if you think about it. Good organizational and project management skills aren't something most people are born with, exactly. So maybe, just maybe, the project lead for ME3 was in over his head. It's odd, because while both ME and ME2 have a "lead designer", there is nobody credited as having that job for ME3. You can also see how the lead writers changed from ME to ME3 and, coincidentally, main plot quality has seen a very steady decline.

 

The question is, will something be done about that? Does anyone at EA/BIO care? Are they even aware there is a problem? They did receive over 9000 perfect scores, after all...

 

 

Larger... than Baldur's Gate 2?

I think the narrative is... different. BG2 is a huge game, but the plot is thinner. The game is full of moments, but the plot was never meant to be as cohesive and intense as in ME, the designers' vision for which is, apparently, pretty much an interactive movie. In BG2 sub-plots and secondary characters are on the spotlight more often than the main plot -for which the game did draw criticism, what with Act 2- but it works because of how the game is presented. BG2 has way more meat plot- and gameplay-wise than any ME game, but the cracks are harder to notice because the main plot isn't being shoved down your throat continuously in the form of unskippable cutscenes.

[Nepenthe]

I really do think that Bioware has a very large problem with planning, and it's a good point that it's more apparent as they have grown larger.

Makes sense, if you think about it. Good organizational and project management skills aren't something most people are born with, exactly. So maybe, just maybe, the project lead for ME3 was in over his head. It's odd, because while both ME and ME2 have a "lead designer", there is nobody credited as having that job for ME3. You can also see how the lead writers changed from ME to ME3 and, coincidentally, main plot quality has seen a very steady decline.

Eh? Preston Watamaniuk isn't credited as ME3's lead designer in spite of having been just that? Either somebody's missed something, or he disavowed the project as well.

[Drowsy Emperor]

I think its a case of (too) high expectations. Blockbusters are there to be watched for all the pretty explosions, sudden plot twists, stock characters and stock drama. In depth analysis just shows how nothing really makes sense which is natural because its all about style, the oooohs and aaaahs. If ME3 had a better ending you would have all gobbled it up and never mentioned all the ridiculous stuff in the series as a whole. Now that the illusion of consistency in the experience is ruined, everything is suddenly a problem.

But the real problem, I think, is wanting a more meaningful, in-depth experience from a game that never offered such a thing.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Drowsy Emperor

[213374U]

Eh? Preston Watamaniuk isn't credited as ME3's lead designer in spite of having been just that? Either somebody's missed something, or he disavowed the project as well.

Yeah, looks like I missed something, alright. I checked Giantbomb et al and Watamaniuk wasn't listed for ME3. But in the in-game credits, he does indeed appear as lead designer. I guess the in-game credits are the go-to source for this. I was also misled by the fact that Watamaniuk is known to be working on TOR... can't say since when, though.

 

After reading on it a bit more, it seems he took over Christina Norman's duties after she left. I'm not sure what that means. My bad.

[Nepenthe]

Eh? Preston Watamaniuk isn't credited as ME3's lead designer in spite of having been just that? Either somebody's missed something, or he disavowed the project as well.

Yeah, looks like I missed something, alright. I checked Giantbomb et al and Watamaniuk wasn't listed for ME3. But in the in-game credits, he does indeed appear as lead designer. I guess the in-game credits are the go-to source for this. I was also misled by the fact that Watamaniuk is known to be working on TOR... can't say since when, though.

 

After reading on it a bit more, it seems he took over Christina Norman's duties after she left. I'm not sure what that means. My bad.

Christina Norman was in charge of the separate team they had working on just the gameplay in ME2 and ME3 (which had at least Manveer Heir, Eric Fagnan and Corey Gaspur in it, IIRC). When she left, that team was simply moved directly under Preston.

 

I think the other Watamaniuk brother's been working on SWTOR, can't remember his first name, but there's definitely two of them.

[GhostofAnakin]

 

The question is, will something be done about that? Does anyone at EA/BIO care? Are they even aware there is a problem? They did receive over 9000 perfect scores, after all...

 

I don't think anything will be done about it, because I don't think BioWare is aware of it. Their press releases to "calm" the outrage over the endings kept hammering home the point that the game scored fantastic with professional reviewers, and that they're proud and standing behind their artistic vision. Granted, they're not likely to come out and say, "we screwed up BAD with that ending", but at the same time, they don't seem to see what the fuss is about. They believe ME3, ending included, is a masterpiece.

[zero_or_more]

But the real problem, I think, is wanting a more meaningful, in-depth experience from a game that never offered such a thing.

 

So let me get this straight... you're blaming the players for having 'too high' expectations... which are actually based on the previous games?

[Nepenthe]

has an atrocious [...] score.

The score is the best thing about this game, and certainly one of the major "fixes" from ME2 after that bland orchestral "phoned it in" effort. Now it's a ME score again.

 

Also, while I agree that the near-total sidetracking of the ME2 crew in this game was the other colossal mistake made in the development of this game (in addition to the ending), there are two sequences in this game that are completely unparalleled in the franchise (or any Bio game, really) so far, Tuchanka and Rannoch.

[Drowsy Emperor]

But the real problem, I think, is wanting a more meaningful, in-depth experience from a game that never offered such a thing.

 

So let me get this straight... you're blaming the players for having 'too high' expectations... which are actually based on the previous games?

 

By ME2 it was obvious that they weren't so much as making a sequel or spinning an epic tale as revising the formula. ME2 practically ditched all your previous work, giving it a nod at times but really it was a wholly new game that felt to me more like a reboot of ME1.

It was like what Gothic 2 did to Gothic 1. Technically they're a sequel, but really - its the same game with the same plot just polished up.

 

If we agree on that, then its clear that nothing in ME's universe was really established and continuity was never at the forefront of the experience. To expect a coherent outcome out of something that was clearly made up as they went along is a case of misplaced expectations.

 

Plus, its a goddamn blockbuster - just what did you expect?

Edited April 12, 2012 by Drowsy Emperor

[Hurlshort]

(Entrerix states) ME 2 was one of my favorite games of the last 5 years, ME 1 was ok.

 

ME3 was a HUGE departure from the second game, I spent that whole game (ME2) building a crew of characters from a rag tag bunch of psychos who half hated eachother into a cooperative team that began to trust eachother, in order to save the galaxy, ME 3 opens by saying "just kidding, pretend ME2 doesn't exist!" and taking away my whole team, then offering two of the most boring members back to me at some point (but not even in the beginning)

 

what the hell was the point of making this a sequel if none of the relationships with the characters carry forward?

 

also, the game feels way more linear than the second and has an atrocious color scheme and score. i don't care if im in the minority, ME3 is half the game that ME2 was. its the phantom menace to the empire strikes back.

 

I really enjoyed how ME3 used the characters from ME2. They all made appearances, some of them more awesome than others. Heck, it even made me like characters I previously didn't care for, like Jack and Thane.

 

I just don't see how you can claim the relationships don't carry forward. Just because they don't sit on board the Normandy? They are busy fighting the war in their own way.

[Orogun01]

I really enjoyed how ME3 used the characters from ME2. They all made appearances, some of them more awesome than others. Heck, it even made me like characters I previously didn't care for, like Jack and Thane.

 

I just don't see how you can claim the relationships don't carry forward. Just because they don't sit on board the Normandy? They are busy fighting the war in their own way.

Hurlie, don't you get it? Video Game relationships= Virtual Harem.

No point in them having a life without being at your disposal 24/7

[entrerix]

 

 

I just don't see how you can claim the relationships don't carry forward. Just because they don't sit on board the Normandy? They are busy fighting the war in their own way.

 

ME 2 ended with us about to go to war together, ME3 picked up with my whole team scattered across the galaxy. it was as if ME2 literally never happened. it would be like if return of the jedi had started out on coruscant with leia as the only character for the first half of the movie, and then we find out during a passing hologram conversation that a few months prior to the movie starting luke had already rescued han from jabba and then began training rebel pilots on tatooine, but they aren't going to show him anymore because george lucas decided that leia was the main character now.

[213374U]

I really enjoyed how ME3 used the characters from ME2. They all made appearances, some of them more awesome than others. Heck, it even made me like characters I previously didn't care for, like Jack and Thane.

 

I just don't see how you can claim the relationships don't carry forward. Just because they don't sit on board the Normandy? They are busy fighting the war in their own way.

Hurlie, don't you get it? Video Game relationships= Virtual Harem.

No point in them having a life without being at your disposal 24/7

Funny, because while you can still **** them (provided you did back in 2), they aren't interested in joining Shep, for some reason. So it's not really the harem thing, but rather, how their "going on with their lives" is presented.

 

It's nicely handled for most characters - Grunt, Zaeed, Jack, Thane- but some others just make no sense. I mean, Jacob? Suddenly Saving The Universe is no longer his thing and he'd much rather make babies. Can't blame him, but come on. It's especially bad if he was Shep's LI in ME2, I hear. There is no good reason why Miranda couldn't join the crew after doing her thing, either. "Admiral" Tali? Why am I not even given the chance to have her stay with the Migrant Fleet, you know, like ****ing admirals are supposed to?

 

On the other hand, they did give us EDI cameltoe.

[Amentep]

 

ME 2 ended with us about to go to war together, ME3 picked up with my whole team scattered across the galaxy. it was as if ME2 literally never happened.

 

Yeah the connection between the end of ME2 and where 3 picks up is just off. They never actually explain why Shepard is grounded (almost court martialed!) in ME3 assuming, I guess, the player played the downloadable content