Deus Ex 3

[Rosbjerg]

old thread.

[Oner]

Nice touch indeed, but sadly it's not random.

Random behavior is anathema to good stealth gameplay. It is specifically the reliable limited intelligence of AI that makes the situations feel interesting and rewarding to overcome.

 

and that the AI is designed so guards will (supposedly, at least according to demo's they've given) randomly look behind them and such like.

Nice touch indeed, but sadly it's not random.

There is enough variation to make it unpredictable, with the added touch of the radar only targeting known assailants (either through sound or visual) and with a very limited range. Its a fairly entertaining challenge.

Just to make sure there's no misunderstanding: enemy patrol routes have one (maybe more in the full game) fix spot at which the enemy looks behind. That's what I meant.

I don't mind either way, but the added randomness of the act would make the given situation a bit more tense without making it actually more difficult.

There's a small but important difference between waiting "4 more secs till he turns then go" and "should I risk going now or wait a bit more?".

 

BTW, there is randomness in the sense that you don't know which guy will turn around.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Oner

[Orogun01]

Just to make sure there's no misunderstanding: enemy patrol routes have one (maybe more in the full game) fix spot at which the enemy looks behind. That's what I meant.

I don't mind either way, but the added randomness of the act would make the given situation a bit more tense without making it actually more difficult.

There's a small but important difference between waiting "4 more secs till he turns then go" and "should I risk going now or wait a bit more?".

 

BTW, there is randomness in the sense that you don't know which guy will turn around.

It is actually easier to look for the fixed spots at which the enemies stop walking and occupy themselves with other matters. At least when you are in close quarters, otherwise they will hear/see you. Plus I can say for certain that it's not as easy as it looks, opening the wrong door (just the act itself) is enough to make enemies react. The AI for stealth gameplay purposes works just fine. I guess what i'm trying to say is that its only fixed until you add your own element to the mix.

[Wombat]

Suddenly, the thread seems to be filled with stealth geeks fans.

Nice touch indeed, but sadly it's not random.

Random behavior is anathema to good stealth gameplay. It is specifically the reliable limited intelligence of AI that makes the situations feel interesting and rewarding to overcome.

I like randomness as long as it doesn't allow me to use the same pattern or it doesn't make me memorize the pattern. However, I'd feel "unfair" when the designer implemented what I cannot avoid without sheer luck. Guards' changing their routes and offering the players limited info are not a bad touch (actually, this comes back to the FP argument, too...something like sounds or device should be offered not to make the game mere gamble) but randomness without giving the players tools to overcome the obstruction would not be a welcome addition.

 

and that the AI is designed so guards will (supposedly, at least according to demo's they've given) randomly look behind them and such like.

Nice touch indeed, but sadly it's not random.

There is enough variation to make it unpredictable, with the added touch of the radar only targeting known assailants (either through sound or visual) and with a very limited range. Its a fairly entertaining challenge.

Just to make sure there's no misunderstanding: enemy patrol routes have one (maybe more in the full game) fix spot at which the enemy looks behind. That's what I meant.

I don't mind either way, but the added randomness of the act would make the given situation a bit more tense without making it actually more difficult.

There's a small but important difference between waiting "4 more secs till he turns then go" and "should I risk going now or wait a bit more?".

I think I came across something like that in Double Agent...I found some guards "twitchier" compared with other guards...the nice touch is that they tend to be alone, which granted the players such choices you described here. After all, it's yet another implementation which encourages the players to observe the behaviors of NPCs. (Unfortunately, the PC control and some mission designs are not good in that game, though).

 

BTW, there is randomness in the sense that you don't know which guy will turn around.

Sounds like the dev team doing what they should be doing, then. It is another "refrained" random factor which encourages the players to pay attention to the guards' behaviors.

[sorophx]

enemy patrol routes have one (maybe more in the full game) fix spot at which the enemy looks behind.

this along with the fact, that his buddies will never miss him and become alerted because one of them is missing, is probably my biggest problem with stealth games. I just can't enjoy them, because it's too easy to just figure out the "right" order to get rid of all the enemies

[Wombat]

enemy patrol routes have one (maybe more in the full game) fix spot at which the enemy looks behind.

this along with the fact, that his buddies will never miss him and become alerted because one of them is missing, is probably my biggest problem with stealth games. I just can't enjoy them, because it's too easy to just figure out the "right" order to get rid of all the enemies

If it is too easy, why do you take them down rather than sneaking past them? They won't be alerted since nobody is missing.

[Tale]

I don't mind either way, but the added randomness of the act would make the given situation a bit more tense without making it actually more difficult.

There's a small but important difference between waiting "4 more secs till he turns then go" and "should I risk going now or wait a bit more?".

My personal problem (if problem is the right thing to call it) with this is that, assuming the tension is truly founded due to the randomness and the unreliable nature of the patterns, then you're right that it's not a challenge. But it is luck.

 

Does the random element truly have a place in stealth games? If I do everything perfectly and still get caught, I'm going to feel a bit robbed. Left to either savescum (in which case the random element is a design failure) or shoot them.

 

 

Now, I do see a resolution to this problem. Namely enabling some mechanic that allows a recovery from luck based failure. "Oh no, they spotted me in a way I could not have predicted or accounted for, I must quickly press X to ____. Saving me from discovery." But that might kill the tension you want.

[Hell Kitty]

However, stealth games seem to be based on quite a delicate balance to drive players attention away from the absurdity.

 

Not really. In the shadow stealth system of Thief and Splinter Cell, the darker the shadow the less visible you are, and in the darkest shadow you can stand right in front of someone and they won't see you because you are completely invisible. That we are more accepting of certain gameplay elements doesn't make them any less absurd. See: health packs vs health regen.

 

this along with the fact, that his buddies will never miss him and become alerted because one of them is missing, is probably my biggest problem with stealth games.

 

That's odd, because it's fairly common for enemies to notice missing buddies in stealth games.

 

Oh, and I love both MGS and Splinter Cell series.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Hell Kitty

[J.E. Sawyer]

this along with the fact, that his buddies will never miss him and become alerted because one of them is missing, is probably my biggest problem with stealth games. I just can't enjoy them, because it's too easy to just figure out the "right" order to get rid of all the enemies

In many of the SC games, you can take down/avoid enemies in many different orders, and/or use distractions to lure people away in whatever order you want. Hitman: Blood Money is also great for this sort of gameplay.

[entrerix]

yeah but at least in MGS (the original and part 2) you had a super sciency "sneak suit" that not only made you invisible at long ranges, but also enabled you to see on your radar, how far away you had to be from the field of view of an enemy to stay invisible.

 

it sounds silly, but a lot less silly than just saying, he's so sneaky, as long as he is in a shadow he is totally invisible!

[Raithe]

I'm amazed.

We've had more comments on this thread based on the stealth mechanics in various games in this one day, then in the previous month about Deus Ex..

 

It's always interesting to see just what directiosn a thread will turn in..

[entrerix]

i think people on this board like talking mechanics, i remember a lot of healthy discussions when new vegas was being made about the types of mechanics improvements we would see over fallout 3. the best part about it was that sawyer not only read all them, but engaged in the conversation, and we could see the elements that were discussed in the actual game (particularly bits about gun mechanics in games, and the level of verisimilitude that open world games should have).

Edited June 29, 2011 by entrerix

[Orogun01]

I like randomness as long as it doesn't allow me to use the same pattern or it doesn't make me memorize the pattern. However, I'd feel "unfair" when the designer implemented what I cannot avoid without sheer luck. Guards' changing their routes and offering the players limited info are not a bad touch (actually, this comes back to the FP argument, too...something like sounds or device should be offered not to make the game mere gamble) but randomness without giving the players tools to overcome the obstruction would not be a welcome addition.

Nothing to do with luck but with just observation and care. The stealth path is deeply intertwined with the explorer (at least at low levels) since there are very few ways to get from point A to B without encountering resistance. At higher levels there are upgrades to help your infiltration, a great deal which specialize on determining enemies routes.

[Hell Kitty]

it sounds silly, but a lot less silly than just saying, he's so sneaky, as long as he is in a shadow he is totally invisible!

 

Personally I prefer devs not try to come up with an in-universe explanation of a game rule.

[Slowtrain]

healthy discussions

 

 

Healthy discussions are what this forum is all about!

[Lexx]

it sounds silly, but a lot less silly than just saying, he's so sneaky, as long as he is in a shadow he is totally invisible!

 

Personally I prefer devs not try to come up with an in-universe explanation of a game rule.

 

Is that ever explained in that way anyway? We know that the PC wears some super fancy stealth tech, but nothing more. It doesn't make you invisible in the distance (after all, there are scenes in the games where enemies can spot you over very long distance: Sniper-part after the big radio tower in MGS1 [incl. Sniper Wolf scene]), it's just some high-tech body protection (at least in MGS1, 2 and TTS, didn't played any other).

Edited June 30, 2011 by Lexx

[Maria Caliban]

enemy patrol routes have one (maybe more in the full game) fix spot at which the enemy looks behind.

this along with the fact, that his buddies will never miss him and become alerted because one of them is missing, is probably my biggest problem with stealth games. I just can't enjoy them, because it's too easy to just figure out the "right" order to get rid of all the enemies

How did you feel about the stealth gameplay in Batman: AA?

 

Now, I do see a resolution to this problem. Namely enabling some mechanic that allows a recovery from luck based failure. "Oh no, they spotted me in a way I could not have predicted or accounted for, I must quickly press X to ____. Saving me from discovery." But that might kill the tension you want.

 

Splinter Cell: Conviction had an interesting mechanic where when an enemy spotted you, a yellow circle appeared that began pointing at you, and would turn red when they recognized you as an intruder as opposed to just a shadow or flicker in their eye.

 

If you were fast enough, you could slip back into the shadows, duck behind cover, etc, before they registered what they were seeing. Then they might stand there and stare a bit or get closer to check out the area, but if you remained hidden, they'd go back to what they were doing.

 

I also recall another game (not sure which one) that turned the player invisible and played a distinctive sound when the PC was spotted. Again, if you reacted fast enough, you could hide again and the enemy AI would be startled but unsure if they'd really seen something.

 

An obvious but brief state between 'unaware' and 'aware' is a nice addition to stealth gameplay.

Edited June 30, 2011 by Maria Caliban

[Oner]

I don't mind either way, but the added randomness of the act would make the given situation a bit more tense without making it actually more difficult.

There's a small but important difference between waiting "4 more secs till he turns then go" and "should I risk going now or wait a bit more?".

My personal problem (if problem is the right thing to call it) with this is that, assuming the tension is truly founded due to the randomness and the unreliable nature of the patterns, then you're right that it's not a challenge. But it is luck.

 

Does the random element truly have a place in stealth games? If I do everything perfectly and still get caught, I'm going to feel a bit robbed. Left to either savescum (in which case the random element is a design failure) or shoot them.

IMHO you lack context: "twitchy" enemies usually have long patrol routes, they turn around once per round and the areas they peek at are small places between to pieces of cover. It wouldn't be a huge deal, though I guess it would be boring in the end, having to wait for the turnaround just to continue. But stealth games are about waiting anyway.

 

 

it sounds silly, but a lot less silly than just saying, he's so sneaky, as long as he is in a shadow he is totally invisible!

Garrett used a bit of Keeper magic to do that actually.

 

I'm amazed.

We've had more comments on this thread based on the stealth mechanics in various games in this one day, then in the previous month about Deus Ex.. shifty.gif

 

It's always interesting to see just what directiosn a thread will turn in..

Unlike, say, FPSs, there is something to talk about. Most stealth games use very different mechanics. AC (2 at least), Batman: AA, MGS, Thief, SC, SC: Conviction, DX:HR all have different rules and stealth AIs.

[ShadowScythe]

Speaking of other stealth games. I'm not big on Assassin's Creed's stealth mechanics. It always seems to just be "if you get detected YOU FAIL! DESYNCHRONISED/NO 100% SYNC!" so the stealth is more of an arbitrary restriction and an inconvenience rather than a genuine reason to go stealthy- I dunno as a result it isn't as much of an adrenaline rush as metal gear solid or DX1.

 

I liked Batman Arkham Asylum's stealth, although I really started loving it the moment the gargoyles

got the explosives rigged to them and so stealthing wasn't as simple as just grappling onto a gargoyle and magically disappearing.

 

 

I think the game that has me the most on edge is MGS, mostly cause of that incredibly unnerving exclamation mark.

Edited June 30, 2011 by ShadowScythe

[Gorgon]

So true, Hitman series wins hands down, first you go in quietly and when you make a mistake which you are bound to the first few times, all hell breaks loose and you fight to survive. It's like ASCreed cut out half the experience.

[Raithe]

Behind 2027 - The Cities of Deus Ex

[Tale]

So true, Hitman series wins hands down, first you go in quietly and when you make a mistake which you are bound to the first few times, all hell breaks loose and you fight to survive. It's like ASCreed cut out half the experience.

I find Hitman to be like a really strange adventure game. Especially Blood Money. Which is why I think I enjoy it.

 

give Donuts to FBI

[Raithe]

So true, Hitman series wins hands down, first you go in quietly and when you make a mistake which you are bound to the first few times, all hell breaks loose and you fight to survive. It's like ASCreed cut out half the experience.

I find Hitman to be like a really strange adventure game. Especially Blood Money. Which is why I think I enjoy it.

 

give Donuts to FBI

 

An adventure game with multiple solutions.. Well, the donuts was a classic. The explosive bbq was fun for that level as well. Although I usually ignored the clown diguise...

 

The New Orleans level in Blood Money was a little less strange adventure game, but I definitely get where you're coming from...

 

Edit:

And on the DE:HR news front, the latest tweet from JB

That's is it folks. My last day of work on #DXHR. The game is done! After 4 yrs of non stop work, I'm off 4 a long ass vacation! PEACE OUT!

Edited June 30, 2011 by Raithe

[Raithe]

And the BBFC have provided a 15 rating for DE:HR

 

BBFC classification for DE:HR

[sorophx]

How did you feel about the stealth gameplay in Batman: AA?

only played the demo, didn't like the game, can't comment