Bioware's New Game

[Thorton_AP]

I beat the game, so I didn't just hear about it, I saw it in action and experienced it.

 

Then you just fail to understand the words I used to describe a quick time event. Go play Resident Evil 4 and you'll see some quicktime events.

 

The words you quoted for what you think of regarding AP's conversation system are explicitly NOT what AP's conversation system entails.

 

well, dying might not be the same as having the game choose a dialogue option for you, but the result is pretty much the same: you have to reload. unless you don't really care, what your character says. well, I did care, I wanted to try and play through AP with an operative that had strong principles. so every time I missed a line or wasn't satisfied with the results of a conversation, I had to roll back to the last auto-save.

 

You have to reload the game if you're not satisfied with the results of the conversation even if there was no timer.

 

The differences are so amazingly obvious that I am starting to question if I'm just being trolled or not. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but I think it's safe to say you're definition of quick time events does not coincide with mine. In any case this conversation is over from my perspective.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Thorton_AP

[sorophx]

for god's sake... the troll argument again sorry I started this conversation

[Hell Kitty]

but the result is pretty much the same

 

No it is not. The game forcing a reload because you died is not the same as you choosing to reload because you are unhappy about the outcome.

 

I wanted to try and play through AP with an operative that had strong principles. so every time I missed a line or wasn't satisfied with the results of a conversation, I had to roll back to the last auto-save.

 

What do you mean "missed a line"? You can't miss a line. If, for example, your first option chosen in a conversation is the professional stance then every other option will also be professional until you hit a button to change it. If you mean you were too slow and missed your chance to change stances, then the problem here is with the player, not the system.

 

As for being unsatisfied with the results, there are two issues here. First, if you mean something like you chose the suave option and Thorton instead said something that made him sound like a douchebag, then fair enough, but this is a problem that also exists in ME and has nothing to do with the time limit. Second, if you reload after every conversation because it doesn't play out as you hoped I think you're kinda missing the point of such a system, and again, this issue exists even without a time limit. RPG gamers often speak of wanting choice and consequences, and part of that is living with the consequences of your choices even if they don't go exactly your way. Otherwise what is the point of having those choices? Devs may as well make the conversation a non-interactive cutscene, then you'll never has to face the burden of reloading again.

[Thorton_AP]

for god's sake... the troll argument again sorry I started this conversation

 

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you weren't. Clearly you and I see QTE as very different things.

[Tigranes]

Let's not run around with giant labelling guns... although, that would probably be fun to larp.

 

But yeah, timed dialogue, AP or not, is quite different from your typical QTE's, since the two key components of a QTE mechanism is (a) abstraction/simplification, which is often used to depict scenes or player actions that are not easily achievable with that game's normal controls, and (b) success/failure on timing, which is then linked to reward/punishment.

 

I think a more relevant example of how the QTE logic is utilised for variuos purposes might be Witcher 2's cutscene QTEs, where failure leads to a different outcome of the cutscene - that is a fairly interesting take on it, though execution is pending.

[sorophx]

If you mean you were too slow and missed your chance to change stances, then the problem here is with the player, not the system.

that's my point, I don't want to be bullied by a flippin' video game, "oh, you were too slow, boo-hoo, well I took the liberty to choose a line for you, what are you gonna do about it?"

[Enoch]

I like the timed dialogue in AP, and I really liked how they generally abandoned the RPG-dialogue trope of everything cycling back to "so, what else did you want to talk about?" The careful implementation of both in ME3 could be an interesting improvement. Have game conversations actually sound like a conversation that you might have. (Well, if you were on a spaceship, talking with a psychokinetic alien lizard who wants to get into your pants.)

 

Of course, the worst thing about ME3 dialogue was that the game mechanics tended to override roleplaying. The player was rewarded primarily for accruing one of 'jerk' or 'sap' points, to the exclusion of the other. This renders the 'middle' choice of the basic 'Bioware three' a non-option, and, for the majority of choices, renders the selection between the remaining two down to a single binary choice made a character creation. AP had a little of this, in that most of the reputational rewards were based on having either very high or very low rep with a character or faction. But at least you got to make a mostly-independent decision with regard to each faction, without worrying about whether it'll affect your abilities to convince wholly unrelated individuals later in the game. (Edit: It also wasn't always clear which of the stance responses would increase or decrease your reputation with the faction/person in question-- in ME, you know that 'sap' is up and 'jerk' is down.)

Edited December 21, 2010 by Enoch

[Hell Kitty]

where failure leads to a different outcome of the cutscene - that is a fairly interesting take on it, though execution is pending.

 

Heavy Rain does this at times. Caught in a convienence store robbery, I attempted to sneak up to the gunman and smack him over the back of the head with a bottle, but I failed to grab an item I knocked off a shelf in time which meant I had to talk him down at gunpoint instead. In another situation I failed to fire on a suspect in time which turned out not so bad as he wasn't pulling a gun after all. I like QTE stuff like this, much better than the press-x-right-now-to-avoid-death stuff from RE4 & 5.

 

that's my point, I don't want to be bullied by a flippin' video game

 

Having to perform an action within an alloted time does not equal being bullied by a video game. It's like complaining about an FPS because you have a slow aim.

[Thorton_AP]

Or have to aim, period.

[Deraldin]

Or have to aim, period.

 

Isn't that why all those console gamers have so much auto aim?

 

[/PC elitist]

[sorophx]

Or have to aim, period.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry

[Gorth]

Or have to aim, period.

The player shouldn't have to aim in a crpg, your character should do that to the best of his skill when you instruct him to

 

Edit: For the record, I hate QTE's almost as much as mini-games.

 

Second Edit: (because I'm all for recycling) The shooter mechanics in ME2 weren't particularly fun, merely felt as a filler not a selling point. My excitement or not for ME3 depends on whether the party members I invested a lot of time and effort in helping makes a re-appearance. Particularly Grunt, Mordin and Samara

[Orchomene]

Edit: For the record, I hate QTE's almost as much as mini-games.

 

I second that. Or maybe, I hate QTE even more than mini games.

When I buy a cRPG PC game, I shouldn't end with a console arcade game. I mean, I've not bought a Xbox, I've bought a PC.

I play game that involve thinking and choosing. Not games that involve the right click at the right moment or the coordination of a guy that attempted to do the same movement for hours.

So, if devs want to add those 'amazing' things like mini games and QTE, please add an option in the setting to remove those awful things or at least to bypass it.

I remember an old crpg called Gorasul. In this game, you could choose the difficulty of combat (not original) but also the 'adventure' difficulty with things like puzzles (e.g. with higher difficulties, instead of multiple choices responses, you have to write the answer).

[entrerix]

fallout 1 and 2 let you do that too, though lowering overall difficulty just changed the dc for skill checks as far as i remember.

 

i personally hate QTE in rpg games, dislike it in other games, and I don't really mind timed dialogue, but i prefer not having it for 90% of dialogue and i want a big fat warning before it comes up the other 10% of the time.

[Monte Carlo]

Seriously, I hope they make timed dialogue response optional and / or via player controlled timer. What about dyslexic people? It's hardly an uncommon condition and this could seriously FUBAR a game for them.

[Purkake]

Seriously, I hope they make timed dialogue response optional and / or via player controlled timer. What about dyslexic people? It's hardly an uncommon condition and this could seriously FUBAR a game for them.

What about games that require two hands to play, it's not uncommon that one-handed people want to play video games.

[Tale]

Or have to aim, period.

The player shouldn't have to aim in a crpg, your character should do that to the best of his skill when you instruct him to

 

Edit: For the record, I hate QTE's almost as much as mini-games.

 

Second Edit: (because I'm all for recycling) The shooter mechanics in ME2 weren't particularly fun, merely felt as a filler not a selling point. My excitement or not for ME3 depends on whether the party members I invested a lot of time and effort in helping makes a re-appearance. Particularly Grunt, Mordin and Samara

 

I can somewhat agree. But not necessarily as a "should" position. I agree that it's what I consider more in line with my defintion of an RPG. But for games like Mass Effect and the new Fallout direction since 3, they should follow their precedent.

 

Then again, I thought the shooting was the fun part of ME2. If I wasn't a completionist, I could have spaced half the crew just to get away from their family drama.

[Volourn]

"What about dyslexic people?"

 

Tough ****.

[Malcador]

The peek-a-boo shooting got tiresome, but I agree was a good change from the drama. I don't see what's wrong with mixing the two, just have the PC's skil affect the player's aim, scope sway, reticle spread, etc. Nice abstraction.

 

As for the timed dialogue, I doubt they'll give you 5 seconds to make a choice. AP gave you a fair amount of time (never clocked it). Also you have the NPC's audio and the dialogue choices in ME aren't that long so accessibility (the actual version) shouldn't be a problem.

[Purkake]

The peek-a-boo shooting got tiresome, but I agree was a good change from the drama. I don't see what's wrong with mixing the two, just have the PC's skil affect the player's aim, scope sway, reticle spread, etc. Nice abstraction.

Yup, I heard that worked out great for Alpha Protocol.

[Tale]

The peek-a-boo shooting got tiresome, but I agree was a good change from the drama. I don't see what's wrong with mixing the two, just have the PC's skil affect the player's aim, scope sway, reticle spread, etc. Nice abstraction.

 

As for the timed dialogue, I doubt they'll give you 5 seconds to make a choice. AP gave you a fair amount of time (never clocked it). Also you have the NPC's audio and the dialogue choices in ME aren't that long so accessibility (the actual version) shouldn't be a problem.

There's not much wrong with mixing the two. It's just that three games in is a little late to start. Though 1 had some elements of it, but I hate that game with an unending passion.

[Malcador]

Yup, I heard that worked out great for Alpha Protocol.

 

Well I see what's wrong with it, now. The players are trash.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Malcador

[Purkake]

Yup, I heard that worked out great for Alpha Protocol.

 

Well I see what's wrong with it, now. The players are trash.

Too bad you need them for the money.

 

Wouldn't it be great if making games was free?

[Malcador]

Presuming the PC-skill dependent aiming (as weak as it was) was the main or a significant problem people had with AP. Don't recall it being so, was mostly bleating on about bugs and the nebulous "lack of polish" (CD Projekt should have been involved), etc.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Malcador

[Thorton_AP]

I would say that the biggest gripe about the game was it's combat mechanics and apparent inaccuracy with the weapons. More so than bugs.