Theological question

[Walsingham]

This is a debate intended to work internally to the subject, rather than question the external validity of the subject to the world at large. SO NO F***ING RELIGION BASHING!

 

 

My interest concerns Satan, and the Fall. It's an interesting point for a variety of reasons, but I have a specific interest today.

 

For many years I took the view that Satan's fall is evidence of God's perversity. Satan, being an angel, has no free will. Combining his lack of free will with God's total awareness must logically mean that God knew with perfect certainty that when he made Satan he would fall. But despite serving as intended, God punishes Satan. Which I've always felt is like somebody locking a dog in a room for three days then beating it for urinating in the corner. Or more directly, dropping a rock, then kicking it for hitting the ground.

 

HOWEVER, we were discussing this last night and a thought occurred. God need not be regarded as possessing perfect knowledge of his creation. Because - in theory - he gave Man free will. This could let God off the hook, but at the same time it raises an interesting point. In order for God to be acquitted of the charge of perverse sadism WE have to take responsibility for committing some act he did not foresee which would have known would lead to Satan's fall. Now, I accept that we may not have known that standing on one leg, saying 'carrot' or turning slightly to the left could provoke the rebellion of a chunk of angels, but did it we might have done.

 

Further to letting god off the charge of being a total s***, there are two points arising.

 

1. It's no wonder Satan wants to punish us.

2. Using this defence means God's legal team formally recognise our right to freedom of choice, AND still more interestingly that God cannot and does not know our every action. I say this because having perfect knowledge of Satan means he would know the consequences of any change to Satan's environment. Monkey see, monkey do, if you like. So in oredr to not foresee and - one would hope - peacefully pre-empt the Fall God would have to be very ignorant of what WE were up to. Otherwise he'd be able to come in, and show Satan a kitten or whatever would calm him back down.

[Killian Kalthorne]

My view of God is that He is an egotistical narcissus that thinks He has no accountability due to the power He possesses. Might makes right and all that. He claims that he is a loving God, but those who do not grovel before Him He tortures for all eternity, free will or not.

 

In the case of Satan, John Milton's Paradise Lost, one of my favorite pieces of literature, explores Satan's role in God's creation. If you haven't read it as of yet, Walsh, I highly recommend it.

[HoonDing]

Interestingly in the Qu'ran, Satan did have free will since he was not an angel, but a djinn.

 

Maybe in the Christian Bible, God created Satan to test humanity. And of course, humanity kept failing these tests all the time.

[obyknven]

Satan is a fictional character like Santa-Claus. Did you know that?

[Blarghagh]

Hm. Well, the problem I see is, if God can't mess with our free will at all, it kind of neuters him doesn't it? Most of the important events in human lives are caused by other humans.

[213374U]

2. Using this defence means God's legal team formally recognise our right to freedom of choice, AND still more interestingly that God cannot and does not know our every action. I say this because having perfect knowledge of Satan means he would know the consequences of any change to Satan's environment. Monkey see, monkey do, if you like. So in oredr to not foresee and - one would hope - peacefully pre-empt the Fall God would have to be very ignorant of what WE were up to. Otherwise he'd be able to come in, and show Satan a kitten or whatever would calm him back down.

 

So, God would have indeed created a stone so heavy it could not be lifted, not even by Himself. Welcome to the realm of theology, where logic is often the first thing to go out the window.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irresistible_force_paradox

 

If you haven't yet, try to get Demon: the Fallen from White Wolf. It's pretty cool, and unlike actual theology, reading the mythology chapters doesn't feel like a complete waste of time afterwards -- you can excuse yourself by claiming you're setting up a game...

[Monte Carlo]

The theology is interesting if you are religious, but from over here in Atheistville it's pretty simple.

 

Ying and Yang.

 

You have to have a counter-balance to the big beardie fella, it just makes sense. The high medieval concept of sin and hell tells you everything you need to know about the peversion of organised religion into a tool of control.

 

I'm not bashing religion per se, a bit of me quite fancies a bit of paganism or something vaguely involving naked chicks dancing around hilltops. But the devil / satan / beelzebub / old Nick needs no deeper theological exposition. It's like getting Da Vinci to paint the face on a scarecrow - nice but not especially adding much to the basic function.

 

Cheers

MC

[Orogun01]

I find the figure of Satan highly interesting, both the real, the poetic and theologic.

 

Walsh@: I agree with your concept of Satan's fall and I add that there is a need for hell and a devil. It's the fear of hell and eternal punishment that kept people in line; you can think of them as the theological police, making sure that there are otherworldly consequences for worldly actions. In the Judgment he stands as an accuser; which is the actual meaning of the word Satan.

In real life that role was attributed to Satan using him as a scapegoat for evil; which was attributed to God before. Somewhere along the line someone asked: "How can God be both merciful and cause evil?" and thus a mysterious figure from the Old Testament was risen to a position of power. Which is a strange event since he was just mentioned a few time during the whole book and wasn't a notorious demon amongst mystics.

 

Considering that Judaic tradition has no Hell and no Devil I would say that both were conceived at a later time as an Aggadah to separate God from evil. This then was carried on to the New Testament in which the Devil appears more frequently since he had already declared the supreme demon. From then on the evolution continues, but that drifts away from your point.

[Hurlshort]

The theme of Satan is a very old concept tracing back throughout history and predating modern religions. It is a very powerful part of human nature, the idea of evil or darkness. We aren't talking about a horned guy in a hot place, as most religions make it clear that the devil can take many shapes.

 

As for Wals's point, I like Orogun's observation about Satan being a primarlily New Testament character to separate evil from God. From a theological standpoint it makes sense, as proselytizing someone with a vengeful God is going to be much harder than a compassionate one.

 

It is odd then, that Satan receives no compassion, but perhaps his very existence is a mercy given by God.

[The Illuminator]

My knowledge of satan is mostly from Islamic religious sources as I doubt the other ones are confusing satan with evil jynns. Even most of the Muslims claim that they have seen satan if they see a bull like thing or something with horns.

 

In Kuran sstan has two names. The real one directing him is 'iblis', but 'shaitan' is also used to point him. However 'shaitan' is a wider term as every creature may turn into a sheitan if s/he acts against the orders of Allah. In one werse Allah says ''Allah sends both human and jynn sheitans to his Prophets to test them.'' This is the proof that both humans and jynss may turn into shaitans with their acts, but the shaitan we talk about here is iblis.

 

In Kuran satan's being angel is both obvious or dubious according to your point of view. Islamic authorities were and are also divided into 2 arguing this if he was an angel or not. A verse says ''Allah ordered angels to prostrate to Adem, but iblis didn't do it, he was a jynn.'' In my opinion this verse obviously says he was both jynn and angel because if he was not an angel, he would say ''I'm not an angel, so I'm not ordered to prostrate to Adem.'', but Allah asks him for his reasoning for not to obey His order. This questioning also proves he was an angel, if he was not, Allah would not claim that satan disobeyed Him. And finally satan is punished for not obeying to Allah and to claim superiority over a creation of Allah despite his limited view. Allah didn't send satan to hell immidiately, but after satan's demand of living until doomsday and trying to deceive humans until that time to take with him to hell, Allah allowed this and said ''You are allowed to live until doomsday and shall be a test over the sons of Adem'' According to some sources satan's real physical appearance also has been changed after that and has turned into an ugly or horrorful and bad smelling body.In Kuran satan's future is not a governor in hell. After doomsday, he shall be tormented in hell eternally with all of the creatures including jynns who deserved to be tormented in hell.

 

Allah knows everything. When He asks something, it is like a procedure as He knows what you shall do with his endless wisdom. He gave us free will to test us, but he does not completely manipulate as he tests us. Otherwise He would not give us a free will. His allowing of evilness or murders or even teases about Him does not show His weakness, He does not need to punish everyone everytime the person commits a sin. He gives His orders, makes some punishments(like the destruction of sodom and gomorrah) or allows some miracles(like the division of moon for the pray of Hz.Muhammed) as examples to us for His existence, and then tests us. After doomsday, an eternal life shall start and every creature shall live what they deserve according to the rules of Allah in heaven and hell.

 

I believe in all of the cases Allah knows what shall happen with his endless wisdom, but does not interfere as He tests His creations. For instance He was aware of Hz.Adem's and Hs.Havva's(Eve) eating from forbidden tree or He was also aware of iblis's(satan) entrance to heaven, but He didn't stop them via possessing or manipulating directly, because He gave them the orders and waited to see how they acted after that. All of His punishments and rewards are determined in Kuran according to our actions.

 

According to Islamic belief, satan has the power to telepathically talk to us as if he is ourselves(hard to discriminate) or whisper things with the help of his creation. He is not from flesh, as he was a jynn, he is created from fire(from the poisonous part of fire) He has the ability to shapeshift into any creature including humans but this is a rare or unrealized case. I believe that most of the time, some jynns are confused to be satan in both Muslim and non-Muslim cultures.

 

Islamic sources also say that Allah may allow satan to show some signs of power to test humans. For instance Prophet Eyup was tested with it during his time, satan was able to spread diseases on him or cause natural disasters like a fire or wind destroying his farm.

 

Coping with satan is both impossible and easy. Islamic sources says satan has the ability to think and act very very quickly beyond the limits of humans. It is said that he is able to run around the earth in one second, he may think millions of cases in time you are able to think one. Allah says no human is capable of coping with satan unless they demand help from Allah via praying and via acting according to Islamic orders resourcing from Kuran. In this case, coping with him is so easy despite his some superiorities.

[Kaftan Barlast]

If there is a devil I hope he's like:

 

[Enoch]

"Don't you know there ain't no devil, there's just God when he's drunk"

 

(Tom Waits)

[Killian Kalthorne]

When God gets drunk we get the platypus.

[Orogun01]

When God gets drunk we get the platypus.

and Mr. Bean

[Gorth]

2. Using this defence means God's legal team formally recognise our right to freedom of choice, AND still more interestingly that God cannot and does not know our every action. I say this because having perfect knowledge of Satan means he would know the consequences of any change to Satan's environment. Monkey see, monkey do, if you like. So in oredr to not foresee and - one would hope - peacefully pre-empt the Fall God would have to be very ignorant of what WE were up to. Otherwise he'd be able to come in, and show Satan a kitten or whatever would calm him back down.

Depends on what came first, doesn't it? Satans fall or free will of humans. Humans didn't really get to exercise their socalled free will until put in Eden... with that tree with forbidden fruits no less. God can not claim good faith on that one, as it was bound to happen eventually. Otherwise, why would the tree have been there in the first place. Makes about as much sense as trying to talk a kitten out of chasing a ball of yarn. Just imagine if Adam and Eve had lived happily ever after and died from old age without any offspring. So much for the masterplan.

 

Edit: Regarding the Platypus, what else to do with all the spare bits from creation?

[LH000]

My knowledge of Christian theology isn't great, but are you sure that angels doesn't have free will (of some sort, at least)? I doubt it is explicitly stated in Bible and I don't know if is this question even addressed in "official roman-catholic catechism" or something. I can ask this question one in this field much better educated friend of mine later this week, if you want.

 

Added: Also, if Satan has no free will, your sentence "1. It's no wonder Satan wants to punish us." is nonsensical, isn't it?

Edited April 4, 2010 by LH000

[Meshugger]

Satan has inspired the best music within rock n' roll and heavy metal. So he is ok in my book.

 

//EDIT: I am not interested in theological discussions in general, since they often start to dwell into allegory-land.

Edited April 4, 2010 by Meshugger

[Orogun01]

My knowledge of Christian theology isn't great, but are you sure that angels doesn't have free will (of some sort, at least)? I doubt it is explicitly stated in Bible and I don't know if is this question even addressed in "official roman-catholic catechism" or something. I can ask this question one in this field much better educated friend of mine later this week, if you want.

 

Added: Also, if Satan has no free will, your sentence "1. It's no wonder Satan wants to punish us." is nonsensical, isn't it?

They often say that he is a special kind of angel who is capable of making choices. On the other hand he could be just doing God's bidding and I quote Job, when the Devil makes the wager and God set the terms.

Edited April 4, 2010 by Orogun01

[kirottu]

Edit: Regarding the Platypus, what else to do with all the spare bits from creation?

 

[Rostere]

He claims that he is a loving God, but those who do not grovel before Him He tortures for all eternity, free will or not.

 

Exactly my thoughts. If you were to assume that everything in the Bible is true, I still wouldn't be a believer because of this. I'd rather burn in hell than worship an immoral God.

[Tigranes]

I'd rather burn in hell than worship an immoral God.

 

Would you, really? I don't think so.

 

Anyway, Orogun's point that Satan and Hell seems to have really come into full force with the New Testament is the best place to start off with, I think. I can't pretend to have thorough knowledge of the Bible but in general, and in the way it is 'taught' across the world these days, there is a clear shift into the compassionate God through the sacrifice of Jesus, and simultaneously, the emergence of Satan/Hell as a very clearly defined and prominent role in the theological spectrum. It's my impression that in the discourses of the New Testament are the primary forces in the production of Satan - replete with hellish symbolism and the counterpart to the divine. This prominence is necessary, of course, because the way in which many people experience or perceive the Christian God appears to be through the mechanism of the confession - that sin has been committed (by default), the consequence of sin is hell, sin is always a possibility (again, by default), and thus God is necessary and gracious.

 

Going by Illuminator's interesting explanation on the Islam side of things, it's a similar structure, but perhaps a slightly different mentality - maybe a little more explicit about the fact that God/Allah is not always going to say 'there there' and take care of your mess.

 

To be honest, I don't consider Satan terribly important. If you are going to be religious and believe in a higher being, you might as well worry about becoming a good person, not dodging the fires of hell. Killian's dismissive comments show how easily Christianity is misunderstood - in part through what I feel is a massively bad PR from Christians themselves. As far as I can see the Christian God is mainly about helping you get some good principles in you, see things in a way that isn't clouded by your emotions or the ideologies of the day, and lead a disciplined life where you can do what you think is right and not let your principles slip by. Bypassing debate about whether you need God to do that or not, etc, etc, that's very different from 'God must be believed in because the alternative (the default consequence of life) is hell'. But that's what a lot of the evangelising and a lot of christian discourse sounds like.

[Walsingham]

My knowledge of Christian theology isn't great, but are you sure that angels doesn't have free will (of some sort, at least)? I doubt it is explicitly stated in Bible and I don't know if is this question even addressed in "official roman-catholic catechism" or something. I can ask this question one in this field much better educated friend of mine later this week, if you want.

 

Added: Also, if Satan has no free will, your sentence "1. It's no wonder Satan wants to punish us." is nonsensical, isn't it?

 

I'm not sure it's nonsensical. Probably a tautology though.

 

Please do ask your theological friend. Should be interesting.

[LH000]

My knowledge of Christian theology isn't great, but are you sure that angels doesn't have free will (of some sort, at least)? I doubt it is explicitly stated in Bible and I don't know if is this question even addressed in "official roman-catholic catechism" or something. I can ask this question one in this field much better educated friend of mine later this week, if you want.

 

Added: Also, if Satan has no free will, your sentence "1. It's no wonder Satan wants to punish us." is nonsensical, isn't it?

 

I'm not sure it's nonsensical. Probably a tautology though.

 

Please do ask your theological friend. Should be interesting.

 

Yes, I think you are right, it's not nonsensical. I formulated my thought in the wrong way, and even thought itself was not really true, or at least not true in context of your post. My fault.

 

I expect to meet that friend of mine probably this weekend, if I'll learn anything interesting I'll post it then.

[Blank]

This poster hopes to accurately represent the Biblical, Christian perspective of Satan and the Fall.

 

Read a few passages about Satan and understand his motives and background:

Revelation 12

1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Ezekiel 28

1The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

2Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

3Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:

4With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:

5By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:

6Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;

7Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

8They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.

9Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

10Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

11Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

12Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Isaiah 14

12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

16They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

17That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

 

 

1. Satan was an angel that led other angels astray Rev. 12:4. In the same verse, we see he wanted to prevent salvation for mankind by destroying Jesus. God will judge the devil and his angels for their actions, as seen in Revelation 20. Also, in Jude verse 6, Jude mentions the fallen angels chose to go out of their appropriate, God-given bounds, saying,

[Rostere]

I'd rather burn in hell than worship an immoral God.

Would you, really? I don't think so.

YA RLY. I have very strong moral convictions. But let's not talk about that here, this topic is dedicated to Satan