Dragon Age discussion

[Volourn]

Except it's not a plot hole. Alistair doesn't know Rhordan personally. He hasn't travellled with him for months. You, the PC, are the one IGNORES Alistair's advice and decide to spare the life of the man who made it his mission to destroy the Grey Wardens. There's no reason to trust Loghain. If you played a good PC (as I did my first time through)m there's no real reason to putting your trust in a man whose wanted to kill you all game long, who allowed multiple veteran GW to die, allowed the king to die, allowed the nation to crumble into civil war, poisoned the man who raised Alistair (forgot about that, huh?). It would have been a plot hole if Alistair just rolled over, shrugged hsi shoulders, and said oh well.

 

It hurts the GW to have someone like Loghain in the group. He simply can't be trusted.

 

" Alistair then tosses everything he believes in out the window and storms off like a thwarted child."

 

nah. Childish is the PC who expects npcs to exactly like they want them to. Why should Alistair just accept the forgiving of Loghain and betswoing the honour of Wardenship on him? Quite frankly, I think a certain old style GW would have potentially slit Loghain's throat on the spot because you cna't have someone so untrustworthy, and unstable as Loghain in your club.

 

 

"wardens actually need people...duh"

 

They sure do; but not any cold body; but someone that can be trusted. Alistair doesn't act like a child. He acts like a man with conviction for justice who was betrayed by his main ally (the PC). Throughout the entire game, Alistair talks about avenging Duncan's death and then at the end the PC just turns their back on that just because a warm body is needed? Wut?

 

Nope, that's no plot hole if you look at it from Alistair's point of view.

 

When I see a plot hole (and there is some in DA); buit this simply isn't one of them. I call it as I see it.

[mr insomniac]

Grey Wardens will recruit people who are good at what they do, not necessarily people who can be trusted. Daveth was a common pickpocket and I believe Duncan says they've taken criminals before. If you play as a Dwarf commoner then by all accounts you are barely recognizable as a person in dwarven society. You just happen to be in the right place at the right time.

 

Whatever Loghain's motivations were, he was recognized across the land as very good military man, someone who could lead armies. He proved quite clearly that he can't be trusted.

[Oner]

Which brings up another WTF at this same point in the game. I initially asked Riordan about performing the joining on others to recruit more wardens and was told (A) that Riordan didn't know how to perform the ritual and (B) that archdemon's blood was required anyway, and the warden's supply of archdemon blood had either been destroyed or stolen. Miraculously, these petty problems are magically resolved (we know not how) to fit the writer's need to have either Logain or Alistair removed from the game at that point.

Actually...you are sent to fetch the Fereldian archdemon blood supply from the secret warehouse room in Denerim. Where Duncan's shield is.

[~Di]

Which brings up another WTF at this same point in the game. I initially asked Riordan about performing the joining on others to recruit more wardens and was told (A) that Riordan didn't know how to perform the ritual and (B) that archdemon's blood was required anyway, and the warden's supply of archdemon blood had either been destroyed or stolen. Miraculously, these petty problems are magically resolved (we know not how) to fit the writer's need to have either Logain or Alistair removed from the game at that point.

Actually...you are sent to fetch the Fereldian archdemon blood supply from the secret warehouse room in Denerim. Where Duncan's shield is.

 

There wasn't any archdemon blood there in any of my games. Only Duncan's shield and a bunch of crap. I frankly don't know what the hell you're talking about.

[HoonDing]

So, are all those 3 or 4 Awakenings companions supposed to be turned into Grey Wardens? If yes, is there a possibility for all of them to die during the Joining?

 

What's a bit dubious about this "rebuilding the Order" plotline is that the game does a very bad job at presenting any compelling reason for the existence of Grey Wardens... there's only the startling revelation of Riordan 5 minutes before the game ends. But before that, none of your companions even gets tainted despite getting splattered by Darkspawn blood many times, not to mention trudging through the Deep Roads & Deep Trenches.

 

It would've been more consistent if your companions would all get tainted and be forced to go through the Joining... and their survival depending on their disposition towards the PC.

 

As it is now, if the only use for Grey Wardens seems to be putting a sword into the head of an Archdemon... why not simply distribute Archdemon blood all over Thedas and when a new Archdemon rises up, put some random people through the Joining to stake Archie if they survive?

[RPGmasterBoo]

That comic with Alistair and Morrigan was dire.

Its practically manga. Yuck.

 

Horrible manga at that.

 

(of course I hope nobody remembers the Baldurs Gate comic, which was almost as bad)

Edited March 4, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[Sannom]

What's a bit dubious about this "rebuilding the Order" plotline is that the game does a very bad job at presenting any compelling reason for the existence of Grey Wardens... there's only the startling revelation of Riordan 5 minutes before the game ends. But before that, none of your companions even gets tainted despite getting splattered by Darkspawn blood many times, not to mention trudging through the Deep Roads & Deep Trenches.

 

You become tainted if you eat Darkspawn's flesh or drink a good glass of their blood. Except for war dogs who attack with their teeth and always have blood in their mouth and thus have more risk to swallow it, I don't see how you can get the Taint if you attack with weapons, unless you're really unlucky or incompetent. How hard can it be to wipe your mouth after a fight, just in case?

[HoonDing]

You become tainted if you eat Darkspawn's flesh or drink a good glass of their blood. Except for war dogs who attack with their teeth and always have blood in their mouth and thus have more risk to swallow it, I don't see how you can get the Taint if you attack with weapons, unless you're really unlucky or incompetent. How hard can it be to wipe your mouth after a fight, just in case?

Judging from the Dalish Elf origin, there's more to it than that.

[Sannom]

Isn't that Origin awful, never referred to again in the game, and thus, non-cannon ?

[Raithe]

Hm, the Dalish Elf origin had the taint come from the wounds caused by the mirror exploding.. the magical item had tainted mystical energies, and having shards of the mirror embed in your flesh and the mystical energies taint caused via that way..

 

Which is why the "proper" taint of becoming a Grey Warden "heals" or at least counters the taint caused by the exploding mirror..

[Volourn]

"Grey Wardens will recruit people who are good at what they do, not necessarily people who can be trusted. Daveth was a common pickpocket and I believe Duncan says they've taken criminals before. If you play as a Dwarf commoner then by all accounts you are barely recognizable as a person in dwarven society. You just happen to be in the right place at the right time."

 

None of those characters abandoned a crap load of fellow Grey Wardens to die. Being a pick pocket or a cutthroat in dwarf citry is much different than betraying the GreyWardens themselevs. Afterall, if the Wardens are valuable, I seriously doubt the order would allow a betrayer to live. Afterall, whose to say that Loghain simply won't betray them again?

 

Again, GW need warm bodies, but they need warm bodies that won't kill other GW.

[Gromnir]

instead o' dragon age: awakenings, they shoulda' done dragon age: redux. da:r would allow the player to redo landsmeet and all the crap that came afterwards. give bio a chance to do a complete rewrite of landsmeet and climax. 'stead of 2-3 hours o' crappola, create 15-20 hours o' gameplay that weren't tedious mob nonsense. resolve allistar in a way that ain't complete puerile. gaider wants morrigan to be more than simple cold b!tch offering you devil's deal? fine, let gaider fix. current final confrontation with the archdemon gots all the emotional impact of a postcard from geico offering us lower insurance rates on our car/boat/motorcycle/rv. fix.

 

ok, maybe Gromnir wouldn't wanna pay serious money simply to play a fixed da:o... but if we had a $10 direct download option...

 

HA! Good Fun!

[~Di]

instead o' dragon age: awakenings, they shoulda' done dragon age: redux. da:r would allow the player to redo landsmeet and all the crap that came afterwards. give bio a chance to do a complete rewrite of landsmeet and climax. 'stead of 2-3 hours o' crappola, create 15-20 hours o' gameplay that weren't tedious mob nonsense. resolve allistar in a way that ain't complete puerile. gaider wants morrigan to be more than simple cold b!tch offering you devil's deal? fine, let gaider fix. current final confrontation with the archdemon gots all the emotional impact of a postcard from geico offering us lower insurance rates on our car/boat/motorcycle/rv. fix.

 

ok, maybe Gromnir wouldn't wanna pay serious money simply to play a fixed da:o... but if we had a $10 direct download option...

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Yes. Just... yes.

[Junai]

That comic with Alistair and Morrigan was dire.

Its practically manga. Yuck.

 

Horrible manga at that.

 

(of course I hope nobody remembers the Baldurs Gate comic, which was almost as bad)

They should use Juan Ramirez, who made the concept art for my favourite game - Myth II..

http://www.bungie.net/projects/myth/asset_...c=31&item=6

 

J.

[RPGmasterBoo]

That comic with Alistair and Morrigan was dire.

Its practically manga. Yuck.

 

Horrible manga at that.

 

(of course I hope nobody remembers the Baldurs Gate comic, which was almost as bad)

They should use Juan Ramirez, who made the concept art for my favourite game - Myth II..

http://www.bungie.net/projects/myth/asset_...c=31&item=6

 

J.

 

Win for you. Myth II is one of my favorite strategies as well.

 

Its kinda sad when you realize that Myth did the "dark forces are coming" atmosphere way better than DA. And Myth is just a bunch of sprites and ominously read journal entries.

 

People have forgotten how to do dark.

 

[Junai]

People have forgotten how to do dark.

Recipe;

1 good writer

1 good artist

1 deep and sincere storyteller-voice (Hrothgar IWD1 ?)

 

Mix with interested developers who don't take themselves too seriously, and a

publisher which doesn't overhype the game 12 months in advance,

and bake until dark and crispy..

 

 

J.

[Volourn]

The thing with 'dark' is that nobody can agree what that actually means. In essence, it's a useless descriptor that can mean almost anything to anyone. *shrug*

 

 

 

Anyways.... http://uk.pc.ign.com/articles/107/1074969p1.html

[Orogun01]

The thing with 'dark' is that nobody can agree what that actually means. In essence, it's a useless descriptor that can mean almost anything to anyone. *shrug*

Probably related to a dark fantasy setting or a selling point to make elves and chainmail less nerdy.

[Maria Caliban]

The thing with 'dark' is that nobody can agree what that actually means. In essence, it's a useless descriptor that can mean almost anything to anyone. *shrug*

 

I

[Orogun01]

The thing with 'dark' is that nobody can agree what that actually means. In essence, it's a useless descriptor that can mean almost anything to anyone. *shrug*

 

I’m going to agree. I've heard Tolkien described as 'dark fantasy' when I consider him traditional epic fantasy.

Tolkien is High fantasy indeed. Lovecraft on the other hand would fall under "dark". The best description that I could think of dark fantasy is a mix of horror and fantasy. The other description is "a story where humanity is threatened by forces beyond their understanding" which describes Dragon Age's plot (The Darkspawn) and also Mass Effect?

Edited March 7, 2010 by Orogun01

[Gromnir]

The thing with 'dark' is that nobody can agree what that actually means. In essence, it's a useless descriptor that can mean almost anything to anyone. *shrug*

 

I

[RPGmasterBoo]

A game can have a dark tone through its graphics, like the Witcher where everything is run down, filthy, it rains half the time and the mood is instantly depressing. At the other end of the spectrum are games like Drakensang with their intentionally fairy tale-ish appearance.

DA's graphics don't set a prevailing atmosphere. They're just typical high fantasy. Eg: the deep roads, an obvious nod to Moria have none of the dread you would expect, the denerim alienage which is supposed to feel really, well, "slummy" looks like just another location albeit with a few more beggars (Vizima slums look like a hellhole by comparison). The "perfect" doll like look of the characters never convinces you that those are genuinely troubled people since they all look "flawless", even the dwarf casteless.

The only significant difference in graphical tone from say NWN is the gore, which as Gromnir noted begs to be turned off.

 

Writing could make the game darker, but Gaider never dares to really go through with it. Like the thugs in the Carta and their final boss, whatever her name is. Even though they say "threatening" stuff the delivery always makes you feel like you're looking at a masked highwayman. Its so... innocent? That's the problem with Gaider's work in general, he's probably a nice guy so real, intimidating "bad guy" stuff seems to be beyond him. He seems to avoid all the areas that call for swearing, real threats and cringe worthy actions on part of both PC's and NPC's. Apart from Duncan's crap which was spot on, but a bit nonsensical as well.

 

Then there is the stuff you can do, which can make you feel you're participating in a "dark world", like say the quest resolution of the first Witcher area where you have a rapist, a child trafficking priest, a murderer on one side and a profiteering witch on the other, and whatever choice you make, it will suck. But no says Dragon Age, you have to help a cheery dwarf gain entry into the mage academy or you have to help an elf kid romance another elf chick. What the hell is that? What's the point of that in a supposedly "dark" game?

 

Like Gromnir said, its not really dark which raises the question why they were bringing up promises they couldn't deliver in the first place?

 

nevertheless, we got loads o' television, novel and movie examples o' what the biowarians considered dark,

 

And what were those?

 

I vaguely remember G.R.R.Martin's works mentioned early in the development cycle, and from what I've read of his works the "dark" stuff is everyone being bastards, the principal characters going through hell and there being a lot of violence (amongst humans) some of which DA implements albeit half heartedly.

Edited March 7, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[Sannom]

Then there is the stuff you can do, which can make you feel you're participating in a "dark world", like say the quest resolution of the first Witcher area where you have a rapist, a child trafficking priest, a murderer on one side and a profiteering witch on the other, and whatever choice you make, it will suck. But no says Dragon Age, you have to help a cheery dwarf gain entry into the mage academy or you have to help an elf kid romance another elf chick. What the hell is that? What's the point of that in a supposedly "dark" game?

 

What's funny with that quest is that even though no one is innocent, one of the sides is so definitely evil and beyond redemption that you can't possibly side with it if you have some sort of conscience And

everyone who has finished the game knows that in the very long term, the less evil choice ends up being not sucky at all, with the character involved on the road to redemption and more possibilities to resolve a specific quest

. The other moral choices in the games aren't as defined though, and all are actually "good".

 

Dragon Age, on the other hand, you can reach an almost "perfect" ending on all hubs :

 

 

--- in the Brecilian Forest, you can free the werewolves of their curse and give some kinf of redemption to the Keeper. Even better, his death will trigger for his First to become the Keeper, and since she was first raised among city elves, she has kept a curiosity for her city brethens and is far more open than her master. Which will grant the new Dalish nation a leader that is able to compromise and keep peace.

--- in the Circle Tower, saving the Mages and not antagonizing Cullen is definitely the best ending, since Greagoir is not the complete jerk he was in the Mage origin. Plus, it brings a nice resolution to the Redcliff hub.

--- the Redcliff hub also has a perfect ending, with Connor and Isolde surviving. And Brother Genitivi can get his reward for his life of travels and seeking to bring enlightenment to his fellow men through the study of history.

 

The only one that doesn't fit is Orzammar. The good ending is definitely to bring Bhelen to power and kill Branka, since it will open an era of unprecedented prosperity for the dwarves, and more equality in their society. Bhelen is a violent visionary, like many "great" men in our own history. But we don't have a glimpse of that in the actual story of the game, where he acts more like Stalin than anyone else, acting all parano

Edited March 7, 2010 by Sannom

[Gromnir]

nevertheless, we got loads o' television, novel and movie examples o' what the biowarians considered dark,

 

And what were those?

 

I vaguely remember G.R.R.Martin's works mentioned early in the development cycle, and from what I've read of his works the "dark" stuff is everyone being bastards, the principal characters going through hell and there being a lot of violence (amongst humans) some of which DA implements albeit half heartedly.

 

 

martin were mentioned often, though not for reasons you identify. lovecraft and howard got some love... and maybe moor****. so too were mentioned firefly and battlestar galactica tv... more bsg than firefly. some graphic novels got mention too, though to a lesser degree.

 

violence is indeed part o' what the biowarians saw as dark & mature, but so is anti-heroes and no-win scenarios. "everyone is a bastard" is a rather childish description, but if it makes you feel better to identify martin characters as such, go for it. martin has some clear goodie/non-bastard characters, but he is willing to kill 'em off w/o much hesitation, and many characters that seems initial evil or bad is developed so that they is seen as flawed and corrupt more than Evil. "the principal characters going through hell," is more boo childishness, but is not complete inaccurate. dark typically has bad stuff happening to good people. being heroic does not guarantee happily-ever-after or a glorious and meaningful death. moral ambiguity in martin and bsg were often identified as part o' the Dark and Mature that the biowarians were aiming for in da.

 

horror has ties to dark, and da did indeed include horror elements, but the crpg medium is more suited to "gotcha" than horror... at least that has been Gromnir's experience. some folks tells us that they found system shock 2 to be a scary game. we never got no sense of menace or dread from system shock 2... too many waves o' creepy crawlies. ss2 had gotcha moments when baddies leap out unexpected and attacked, but we never got no genuine menace or dread. other horror games fall similarly flat for Gromnir, but we understand the desire to combine horror elements with a crpg to achieve dark... menace and dread. is tough to gets serious menace and dread when you got repetitive mob combats and reload and such. in lovecraft stories you is relative certain that the protagonist is gonna get swallowed by darkness at some point. such fear never genuine exists in a crpg.

 

is up to the individual to decide just how much dark and mature bio managed to instill into da. we didn't see as much as we hoped. after gaider's "dark, but not too dark," comment we were not expecting significant dark and mature, but we were a bit surprised by fact that da didn't seem to advance dark and mature beyond what we already saw in bg2.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Monte Carlo]

Dark... but not too dark. Ha, sounds like my favourite chocolate from Green & Black's.

 

I'll have my own tilt as to what constitutes 'dark.' Nope, it ain't relentless violence (although violence might indeed be significant) and it ain't everyone being a complete basterd (note new Tarantino spelling to baffle language filter LOL) either. Dark is the mood music. Ferelden ain't very dark. There's dark stuff going on... but like Dave Gaider says, it ain't too dark. The rest of it is fairytale castles and dudes wearing comedy gold pantaloons.

 

What is? Well, Elric of Melnibone is dark --- the whole Eternal Champion saga is. Why? The settings are, by and large, fantastic dystopias (beautifully realised). Doomed anti-heroes who take occasional comfort from crumbs of humanity and the satisfaction of doing good things (in usually bad ways). Flashes of humour lighten the tone like the brush-strokes in a good painting. It's an exercise in how to do 'dark.'

 

Bio has confused a bit of cleavage, murder, poorly pixellated blood-splashes and Macbeth-level perma-betrayal for 'dark.'

 

Cheers

MC