Was Jade Empire bad?

[J.E. Sawyer]

JE ran between 20 and 30 fps and came out one year after Ninja Gaiden and in the same year as DMC3.

 

Just in case anyone wants to frame relevant competition in terms of mechanics.

[Wrath of Dagon]

JE ran between 20 and 30 fps and came out one year after Ninja Gaiden and in the same year as DMC3.

 

Just in case anyone wants to frame relevant competition in terms of mechanics.

Why compare an RPG to dedicated fighting games? No one is good at everything. Edit: Ninja Gaiden didn't allow camera control to my knowledge, so right there the comparison is unfair.

Edited February 3, 2010 by Wrath of Dagon

[Orogun01]

JE ran between 20 and 30 fps and came out one year after Ninja Gaiden and in the same year as DMC3.

 

Just in case anyone wants to frame relevant competition in terms of mechanics.

If they had made the mechanics like that then you would see a lot of RPG purists saying that it was too hard. RPG= Strategy/Skill.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Why compare an RPG to dedicated fighting games? No one is good at everything. Edit: Ninja Gaiden didn't allow camera control to my knowledge, so right there the comparison is unfair.

Ninja Gaiden and DMC3 are action games, not fighting games. I'm comparing them because they set the bar for those mechanics.

 

Ninja Gaiden did allow camera control. Camera control vs. fixed camera is a non-issue as long as the camera supports the gameplay. Ninja Gaiden's controllable camera was, IMO, worse than DMC3's fixed/scripted cameras because you were effectively using the camera as an element of gameplay. As a further evolution of this, NG2's camera offered more control but was still worse than DMC4's camera, which I think is one of the best examples of (mostly) fixed/scripted cameras.

[J.E. Sawyer]

If they had made the mechanics like that then you would see a lot of RPG purists saying that it was too hard. RPG= Strategy/Skill.

Mechanics are separate from content/tuning. DMC3:SE on "Japanese" standard difficulty is easy. DMC4 on human is also very easy. Bayonetta on very easy/automatic is a joke/basically just to watch cutscenes. Crank up the difficulty on them and they can all become very challenging.

 

Also all of those games run at 60.

[Killian Kalthorne]

"Actually, I liked it but I would say it's one of the worst Bio games."

 

Actually, it's one of their better games.

 

Just out of curiosity, which of Bioware's CRPGs do you think is the worse.

[jaguars4ever]

"Actually, I liked it but I would say it's one of the worst Bio games."

 

Actually, it's one of their better games.

 

Just out of curiosity, which of Bioware's CRPGs do you think is the worse.

Play them all without a bias, then the answer will be evident.

 

If you think about it, it's KotOR. Sorry to burst the bubble.

[HoonDing]

Jade Empire scores high marks with me for having an ending where the Bad Guy wins... which doesn't happen enough in games.

[RPGmasterBoo]

People seem to forget NWN OC when debating Bio's worst RPG. Probably nobody wants to remember it.

[Killian Kalthorne]

Play them all without a bias, then the answer will be evident.

 

If you think about it, it's KotOR. Sorry to burst the bubble.

 

I was asking Volourn, but for the most part I have to concur.

[Orogun01]

If they had made the mechanics like that then you would see a lot of RPG purists saying that it was too hard. RPG= Strategy/Skill.

Mechanics are separate from content/tuning. DMC3:SE on "Japanese" standard difficulty is easy. DMC4 on human is also very easy. Bayonetta on very easy/automatic is a joke/basically just to watch cutscenes. Crank up the difficulty on them and they can all become very challenging.

 

Also all of those games run at 60.

Easy by the genre standards; whilst I agree with you that JE could have had slightly elevated combat mechanics is also very hard for me to picture an RPG/DMC hybrid (mouthwatering). I'm sure that some would argue that RPG side is lost on the combat mechanics making it an action game with high storytelling.

[HoonDing]

NWN, KOTOR, ME, DA all follow the hoary old premise "defeat ancient evil by going on one giant fetch quest". At least JE is different from that.

[RPGmasterBoo]

There is no RPG side in JE as far as stats are concerned. You practically had a health bar and a mana bar and a combo switcher (if I recall correctly). Nothing kept them from making it a DMC level slaughterhouse.

 

Except that its fairly obvious that Bio doesn't handle pure action well, which is understandable since that isn't their expertise. That's why they should quit this bullsh!t, and revert to the former real time/turn based hybrid that served them so well. And to go back to good, established, IP for god's sake. Like World of Darkness.

[Tigranes]

NWN, KOTOR, ME, DA all follow the hoary old premise "defeat ancient evil by going on one giant fetch quest". At least JE is different from that.

 

You mean, "your teacher betrays you and becomes big baddie"?

[RPGmasterBoo]

NWN, KOTOR, ME, DA all follow the hoary old premise "defeat ancient evil by going on one giant fetch quest". At least JE is different from that.

 

You mean, "your teacher betrays you and becomes big baddie"?

 

Well, it is different.

[Tigranes]

True. I still wonder if I'd have enjoyed the game more if I didn't see the plot twist coming after the first scene of the game (after your master says, about, three lines). And ironically, although I thought JE was thoroughly mediocre, I would have liked to see another take at the universe - get that great art direction and sound, then put in some in-depth lore that really seems different and Asian-inspired, not a dragon coating on high fantasy.

[Nightshape]

I believe JE was a turning point for Bio in many ways. It was the first time they really moved away from pause and click style of stat driven gameplay. It has its flaws, but I do see it as the beginning of a different approach to games.

 

Less focused on PnP and more an attempt to make interactive games, with traditional gameplay elements.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Nightshape

[RPGmasterBoo]

The pause and click interpretation of DnD was their invention, or they made it relevant at least.

 

Fighting games and shooters have been done by other people before. And done better.

 

It was a step back - that's how it looks in retrospect.

 

Nothing was wrong with real time/pnp, except that it wasnt as attractive and flashy as the things that were in fashion at the time.

[Volourn]

"If you think about it, it's KotOR. Sorry to burst the bubble."

 

Of course, it is. It'S not even close. It's dumbed down way worse than ME2 is.

 

 

"There is no RPG side in JE as far as stats are concerned. You practically had a health bar and a mana bar and a combo switcher (if I recall correctly)."

 

Yopu better play JE again. Stats in thast game definitely effect game play. However, it is an Action RPG for a reason, and that's because player skill matters in combat.

 

JE is vastly superior to most rpgs when it comes to role-playing. The combat is hella fun too.

 

 

"I still wonder if I'd have enjoyed the game more if I didn't see the plot twist coming after the first scene of the game (after your master says, about, three lines)."

 

You only 'saw' the 'plot twist' that earlybecause you just made an educated guess based on how many past games use the 'ol, your teacher is really the bad guy scenario.

 

 

"It was a step back - that's how it looks in retrospect."

 

Wrong. KOTOR was a step back. JE was a step forward. It's really where they really got the C&C going.

[Nightshape]

The pause and click interpretation of DnD was their invention, or they made it relevant at least.

 

Fighting games and shooters have been done by other people before. And done better.

 

It was a step back - that's how it looks in retrospect.

 

Nothing was wrong with real time/pnp, except that it wasnt as attractive and flashy as the things that were in fashion at the time.

 

I would never say for a minute that bioware made a good fighting game with JE. This was the first time bioware attempted something different and stepped outside of their comfort zone. I commend that, regardless of the result. Personally I prefer it, pause and play was fine 10 years ago, when they were attempting to imitate DnD, but in order to flesh out the portfolio and IP's it makes perfect sense to attempt new things.

 

What bioware was clearly trying to bring to the table was RPG elements combined with a fighting game, not many games spring to mind that have attempted this and succeeded.

 

Even obsidian are moving outside of their traditional comfort zone.

 

Just because you like pause and play, doesn't mean that the sales figures indicate that its worth the investment. It's that simple at the end of the day, it's about business.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Easy by the genre standards;

Bayonetta on Very Easy/Automatic is easy by pretty much any standards, I think.

 

 

It doesn't really get any easier than that.

 

whilst I agree with you that JE could have had slightly elevated combat mechanics is also very hard for me to picture an RPG/DMC hybrid (mouthwatering). I'm sure that some would argue that RPG side is lost on the combat mechanics making it an action game with high storytelling.

DMC4 has a pretty nice character progression/advancement system. Put those mechanics in a game with player choice and consequence and congrats: you have an RPG with great combat mechanics running at 60.

[bhlaab]

Same problems as Mass Effect 1. They tried to take Kotor and mash another genre into it without giving the other genre the attention that it deserves.

 

On top of that, the JE world was massively boring and of course they start out the game by shoving a ton of expository cutscenes down your throat.

[Orogun01]

On top of that, the JE world was massively boring and of course they start out the game by shoving a ton of expository cutscenes down your throat.

Isn't that how every game begins?

[Pidesco]

DMC4 has a pretty nice character progression/advancement system. Put those mechanics in a game with player choice and consequence and congrats: you have an RPG with great combat mechanics running at 60.

 

Would you please make that game?

[Pop]

Really the problem with combat that Jade Empire had, which is the same problem that ME1 had, was that the rhythm was weird and it didn't work very well. I attribute ME1's failure to the weapon heat system and the long power recharges, which created awkward pauses, and in JE's case the very simple mechanics and the abysmal AI created, as has been said, enemies who block all the time and enemies who just mash the attack button. The actual ideas behind JE's combat were actually pretty interesting, they just had piss poor implementation. JE's defensive / offensive concept, for example, was replicated in Shale's abilities in DA, to better effect.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Pop