Neverwinter Nights 2: Storm of Zehir

[Musopticon?]

*facepalm*

 

I just recalled why I started to avoid the Bio fora. Besides some brilliant posters(at DA boards for instance), there's this howling and seething mass of BG2 fanboys that never actually realised the Bhaalspawn saga was over the moment the player decided what to do with the remains of the <PLAYERNAME>'s dad. Or rather, it was over once Interplay decided to drop the ball.

 

Get a move on, it's not like anyone is stopping you from replaying BG the umpteenth time, there's no point to the endless baaawww over Bioware/Obsidian/w-e's decisions to make an exact replica of that past series. In the contrary, I think it's worth rejoicing that they are stretching their wings over new ground.

 

As for jrpgs influencing the cinematic bend that western ones have recently taken, I call bull. If anything, it's the other way around, jrpgs are increasingly complex, finally starting to let go of the FF/Dragon Quest(don't. I liked the 8th one) format. I think the re-imagining of the western rpg as a interactive novel has more to do with technology finally being powerful enough for graphics and direction to take a step towards what popular rpgs have always traced their roots back to - Tolkien and the goddamn epic fantasy novel lineage.

 

Edit: I realize that might appear as confrontational - it isn't. I wasn't aiming at anyone here.

Edited June 24, 2008 by Musopticon?

[Pidesco]

I don't think western RPGs are being actually directly influenced by JRPGs. Correlation does not imply causation and all that.

 

I do find it bitterly amusing that Bioware's games are turning into the sort of RPGs many Biofans were supposed to despise, without any of those fans complaining or even noticing.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Will the overland map be akin to BG where each area will be fixed and huge, or more like Fallout where you can wonder around and stop anywhere in locations of varying size?

The overland map(s) are huge areas, as in Fallout (although in Fallout it was just one contiguous area; in SoZ, there are multiple large, non-contiguous areas).

 

I made a demo character for my Paris GDC presentation and it was a ranger with a dino animal companion. Total ownage.

[Zoma]

DINO! COMPANION!

 

It better be big so I don't feel awkward calling it Godzilla.

[Xard]

So, rangers suddenly became cool eh

[Jorian Drake]

So, rangers suddenly became cool eh

suddenly? they are cool since Legolas William Tell and Robin Hood and the huns!

 

*facepalm*

 

I just recalled why I started to avoid the Bio fora. Besides some brilliant posters(at DA boards for instance), there's this howling and seething mass of BG2 fanboys that never actually realised the Bhaalspawn saga was over the moment the player decided what to do with the remains of the <PLAYERNAME>'s dad. Or rather, it was over once Interplay decided to drop the ball.

It's not over, its on "vacation"

Edited June 24, 2008 by Jorian Drake

[Volourn]

"Bhaalspawn saga was over"

 

It doens't have to be. there's tons of ways to continue the Bhaalspawn Saga. Just have to use imagination, and last i checked that's what fantasy is all about.

[Xard]

So, rangers suddenly became cool eh

suddenly? they are cool since Legolas William Tell and Robin Hood and the huns!

 

 

none of those three are rangers. Especially not the huns

[Jorian Drake]

So, rangers suddenly became cool eh

suddenly? they are cool since Legolas William Tell and Robin Hood and the huns!

 

 

none of those three are rangers. Especially not the huns

archery

[Xard]

...which does not equal to ranger

[Jorian Drake]

...which does not equal to ranger

tell me then, what is your definition of "ranger"?

[Xard]

In the Dungeons & Dragons role-playing game, ranger is one of the base character classes. They are protectors of nature, skilled woodsmen, and often live reclusive lives as hermits.

 

edit: Drizzt is foremost ranger and he doesn't use bows at all

Edited June 25, 2008 by Xard

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

"Bhaalspawn saga was over"

 

It doens't have to be. there's tons of ways to continue the Bhaalspawn Saga. Just have to use imagination, and last i checked that's what fantasy is all about.

 

Trust you to take such a stance :holds head in hands:.

Edited June 25, 2008 by @\NightandtheShape/@

[Tale]

...which does not equal to ranger

tell me then, what is your definition of "ranger"?

Ranger may mean a keeper, guardian, or soldier who ranges over a region to protect the area or enforce the law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranger_(disambiguation)

 

Entries at dictionary.com are similar.

 

Why would you mention Legolas but completely skip over Aragorn?

Edited June 25, 2008 by Tale

[Pop]

That ties with what I've been thinking of late which is that Bioware is slowly turning into the Squaresoft of Western RPGs, where meaningless, shallow gameplay just strings you from one cutscene to another. Bioware's games are a bunch of plot points strung up linearly through gameplay that actually has nothing whatsoever to do with the actual plot.

 

Imagine if you were watching say, the Matrix, and after each of the movie's scenes you had to peel a bunch of potatoes before getting to see the next scene. Note that the peeling of the potatoes has no effect on The Matrix's plot other than serving as penance for the viewer to "earn" the whole plot. That's a Bioware game.

Wow, you just perfectly described The Witcher.

[GreasyDogMeat]

Will the overland map be akin to BG where each area will be fixed and huge, or more like Fallout where you can wonder around and stop anywhere in locations of varying size?

The overland map(s) are huge areas, as in Fallout (although in Fallout it was just one contiguous area; in SoZ, there are multiple large, non-contiguous areas).

 

I made a demo character for my Paris GDC presentation and it was a ranger with a dino animal companion. Total ownage.

 

Dino companions!? Be still my beating heart.

 

I want a ceolophysis! http://www.cedargrove.k12.nj.us/north/medi...Coelophysis.gif

 

Don't really understand why people feel dinosaurs don't fit in D&D. Like saying the cats and dogs don't fit in a fantasy setting because they are *real* animals. Well... so were dinosaurs...

Edited June 25, 2008 by GreasyDogMeat

[Whipporwill]

This proves my chaos theory.

[Pidesco]

That ties with what I've been thinking of late which is that Bioware is slowly turning into the Squaresoft of Western RPGs, where meaningless, shallow gameplay just strings you from one cutscene to another. Bioware's games are a bunch of plot points strung up linearly through gameplay that actually has nothing whatsoever to do with the actual plot.

 

Imagine if you were watching say, the Matrix, and after each of the movie's scenes you had to peel a bunch of potatoes before getting to see the next scene. Note that the peeling of the potatoes has no effect on The Matrix's plot other than serving as penance for the viewer to "earn" the whole plot. That's a Bioware game.

Wow, you just perfectly described The Witcher.

 

 

Up to a point, I've described most games. It's really just a question of the degree to which each developer follows this path.

 

Also, I don't think the Witcher is the biggest culprit of such design philosophy. While the monster hunting quests were just meaningless filler, I thought a respectable percentage of its quests actually served a purpose in setting up the plot, the characters and the game world. I think the Witcher's biggest problem was the combat which, while full of great ideas, had a really pointless core combat mechanic.

[Monte Carlo]

I think that the older guys played tabletop RPGs and enjoyed the imperfect but fun transition to the 'puter. I think that the younger guys have been brought up with the computer and especially console games - they enjoy more story driven games. They don't like rules and micro-management.

 

Put simply, some of us want involving, squad-based tactical wargames with a fantasy theme. You say fireball, I say Flammenwerfer. This is what the original tabletop 'RPGs' were in the early 80's, not Fakespeare story-telling competitions with miniatures (I was there). Funnily enough, the PC is an excellent platform for squad-based tactical 'RPGs'.

 

BG1 was exactly that - a squad-based tactics game with a fantasy overlay and a faithful (nay, stubborn) adherence to a ruleset not designed for the computer. The characters were pretty thin, but still interesting enough to give a veneer of involvement that didn't detract from the important business of exploring, fighting and loot. BG2 moved this on a bit, with romances and more interaction and an epic scale. The romance thing has been discussed to death, but personally I think they've diverted the game from the core mission of exploring, fighting and loot. I digress.

 

Now, as has been superbly put, you endure point-and-click combat, deploy brain-dead power-ups and slay everything and a rewarded with a cut-scene that drives somebody else's story forwards. NWN was just like that for me, NWN2 redeems the brand slightly. Personally, choosing to wander into the Ankheg fields before the Firewine Ruins was a good enough 'plot' for me, but I'm a simple soul.

 

I realise that I'm a grognard. I know, in gaming terms, that I'm like one of those Japanese soldiers hiding out on a Pacific island in 1980, refusing to accept that I've lost. But if a developer has the nuts to make at least one product that nods in my direction and not pander to the baser instincts of spoon-fed gaming then I'll be happy (ish).

 

Time to boot up IWD2 and JA2 again, methinks!

 

Cheers

MC

[Humodour]

I think I absolutely agree with Monte Carlo, but it's generally hard to tell.

 

I made a demo character for my Paris GDC presentation and it was a ranger with a dino animal companion. Total ownage.

 

I think I'm in love with this game.

Edited June 25, 2008 by Krezack

[Starwars]

I also agree with that. Though I like I said, I also do enjoy more story-heavy games, but I do not enjoy this trend of story being the generally most important ingredient.

 

And yeah, the strength of RPG gameplay for me was indeed the whole tactical, slowerpaced type. It's still odd to me that developers try so hard to mash the whole stat thing together with a more action-based approach. I really think that approach loses the best of both approaches, and often becomes a lesser thing. Neither tactical enough, nor adrenalinefilled enough. Mass Effect was a good example of this for me. Yes, the combat works and flows pretty smoothly, but it is oh-so-unfilfilling for the most part.

 

I am really glad though that we at least start out at a low level in this game. While I still enjoyed the combat in MotB a lot more than NWN2, it was mostly due to the encounters being set up in a more fun way. I found it quite hard to manage everything due to the epic levels, and while I can appreciate the crazy amount of destruction that goes on when all spells are being fired off, it can also be immensely confusing.

I've never liked realtime w pause that much but if the developer makes enough effort of providing encounters that are fun and varied, it can still work quite well.

[Tigranes]

this trend of story being the generally most important ingredient.

 

Well, I wouldn't mind so much if the stories were actually any good. I run away from blockbuster Hollywood....and there we have blockbuster Hollywood. Thanks!

 

Immersion really has become the key word. They are essentially aiming for an experience where you wander gaily through a universe which has been specifically tailored to fawn over you and provide you with tourist spots and 'cool' experiences, where you can indulge in various juvenile 'cools' (which aren't necessarily bad, we all love them, but how much priority should they take...?), while a suitably explodey and blockbuster Hollywood story unfolds. It's not about actually influencing anything, it's not about having consequences, and it's not about allowing the player to actually create anything. That illusion remains, of course, what with conversation choices, items, 'crafting', whatever, but let's not kid ourselves, they are fast becoming relics, those that remain standing while what they signify has already given way to a different form of experience altogether.

 

SoZ looks like it's trying to, at least partially, resist that wave, though.

[Nightblade]

Now, as has been superbly put, you endure point-and-click combat, deploy brain-dead power-ups and slay everything and a rewarded with a cut-scene that drives somebody else's story forwards. NWN was just like that for me, NWN2 redeems the brand slightly.

The other way around? NWN2 <- 1. Or I guess it's heresy to say that around here uh?

 

I realise that I'm a grognard. I know, in gaming terms, that I'm like one of those Japanese soldiers hiding out on a Pacific island in 1980, refusing to accept that I've lost. But if a developer has the nuts to make at least one product that nods in my direction and not pander to the baser instincts of spoon-fed gaming then I'll be happy (ish).

 

Time to boot up IWD2 and JA2 again, methinks!

 

Cheers

MC

hear, all ye good people, hear what this brilliant and eloquent speaker has to say!

 

N.

[funcroc]

GameBanshee interview with Matthew Rorie

 

GB: How many new classes, races, spells, and feats do you intend to introduce in SoZ? Any examples you can give us?

 

Matthew: Well, we can say that we've been working on the Doomguide of Kelemvor, a specialist in fighting the undead, as a prestige class. It's perfect for anyone who harbors a particular hatred for skeletons, and they're handy to have in your party when you come across a necromancer's crypt.

Edited June 26, 2008 by funcroc

[Tale]

I've decided that I want playable Kobolds. I actually decided that a long time ago, but I've remembered the decision.