Obsidian dumbs "downer"

[Morgoth]

What's the difference between a duergar and a dwarf btw? They all look the same to me.

[Xard]

Duergar are black and evil

[Morgoth]

And dwarfs are fat and grumpy?

[Xard]

[Musopticon?]

Dwarves are lovable drunks, duergar are violent drunks.

[Volourn]

Duergar aren't black. They're grey. Nice try, though.

[metadigital]

And dwarfs are fat and grumpy?

 

Dwarves are lovable drunks, duergar are violent drunks.

[thesisko]

Core combat in the expansion should be a little easier overall, especially at the beginning, because people are being thrown in with epic level characters. There were battles in NWN2 that a lot of people found challenging. Take Tholapsyx, for instance. Constant Gaw tuned that battle for a long time. A lot of players and testers had a hard time with that fight. I beat her in two rounds. It's pretty hard to tune high level fights so they are fun for both the hardcore player and nubz.

 

The expansion does start out pretty mellow in the combat department, but it ramps up quickly after that. We put a good amount of effort into revising the combat scenarios so they felt tactically challenging. We tried to find ways to differentiate enemy types from area to area and within each area. Tactical difficulty is usually more interesting than numeric difficulty, if that makes sense.

 

I think that weathered veterans will at least find the combat engaging. Total nubs (e.g. Adam Brennecke) will probably be wiped out at a few spots. But hey, you're playing an epic-level D&D game, so suck it up and get promoted out of the Nubtorian Guard. I certainly believe that the majority of players moving from NWN2 to MotB will find the latter more interesting and challenging overall.

 

I'm curious what caused this radical shift in combat design from May to September (going from "easier than NWN2" to "more challenging than NWN2"

Was it a change in philosophy (assume the typical player is interested in the combat system and provide a challenge vs. assume the typical player isn't very interested in learning the combat system)? I'm very glad this happened, but I'd like to know how it came about!

[WorstUsernameEver]

Seeing the pre-released ranting about MotB after having experienced it more than once and enjoyed the hell out of it.. well, it's kinda educational.

[C2B]

Core combat in the expansion should be a little easier overall, especially at the beginning, because people are being thrown in with epic level characters. There were battles in NWN2 that a lot of people found challenging. Take Tholapsyx, for instance. Constant Gaw tuned that battle for a long time. A lot of players and testers had a hard time with that fight. I beat her in two rounds. It's pretty hard to tune high level fights so they are fun for both the hardcore player and nubz.

 

The expansion does start out pretty mellow in the combat department, but it ramps up quickly after that. We put a good amount of effort into revising the combat scenarios so they felt tactically challenging. We tried to find ways to differentiate enemy types from area to area and within each area. Tactical difficulty is usually more interesting than numeric difficulty, if that makes sense.

 

I think that weathered veterans will at least find the combat engaging. Total nubs (e.g. Adam Brennecke) will probably be wiped out at a few spots. But hey, you're playing an epic-level D&D game, so suck it up and get promoted out of the Nubtorian Guard. I certainly believe that the majority of players moving from NWN2 to MotB will find the latter more interesting and challenging overall.

 

I'm curious what caused this radical shift in combat design from May to September (going from "easier than NWN2" to "more challenging than NWN2"

Was it a change in philosophy (assume the typical player is interested in the combat system and provide a challenge vs. assume the typical player isn't very interested in learning the combat system)? I'm very glad this happened, but I'd like to know how it came about!

 

I don't really think there was a change at all. Maybe communicated a little different. Epic Level games are always a little special in how they are viewed.

[Nepenthe]

Holy Thread Necromancy, Batman!

[thesisko]

I don't really think there was a change at all. Maybe communicated a little different. Epic Level games are always a little special in how they are viewed.

 

Early on, Sawyer clearly stated that it was going to be easier than NWN2. A few months later in the development cycle, he states that he was bored playing through the initial tuning and that the final tuning is a lot more challenging and interesting than NWN2. Sounds like a changed approach to me.

[Tigranes]

Core combat in the expansion should be a little easier overall, especially at the beginning

 

The expansion does start out pretty mellow in the combat department,

 

The 'easier beginning' stays consistent, but I suppose while making the game they realised it was really boring to have epic level characters and easy combat. MOTB ended up with a couple of 'cheese everything' win buttons anyway (Vampiric Feast, etc).

[Lexx]

So, is it worth to buy NWN2 + MOTB only to play MOTB while never looking at the main game that is NWN2? Didn't played MOTB yet, and I might be interested in it. And in what kind of way is it connected to PS:T? (I keep reading that folks say it's like a spiritual successor. Only by style or something else?)

Edited May 27, 2011 by Lexx

[Tigranes]

Since they must be dirt cheap now, definitely yes. Best story and writing in any RPG in the last 5 years or more. MOTB also won't take too long, there's not too much filler and grinding.

[Flouride]

So, is it worth to buy NWN2 + MOTB only to play MOTB while never looking at the main game that is NWN2? Didn't played MOTB yet, and I might be interested in it. And in what kind of way is it connected to PS:T? (I keep reading that folks say it's like a spiritual successor. Only by style or something else?)

 

You should be ashamed of yourself if you haven't played MotB. It's easily the best crpg since PS:T. I'm pretty sure NWN 2 + expansions will be dirty cheap on Steam sometime during this summer.

[thesisko]

The 'easier beginning' stays consistent, but I suppose while making the game they realised it was really boring to have epic level characters and easy combat. MOTB ended up with a couple of 'cheese everything' win buttons anyway (Vampiric Feast, etc).

 

A raise in overall challenge level really doesn't have anything to do with epic levels. They obviously went from wanting to decrease the challenge to actually increase it, both tactically and from a resource management perspective (by adding the spirit meter mechanic). I found NWN2's combat to be tedious and boring, but it would be interesting to know why Obsidian initially planned to make MotB even less challenging.

[J.E. Sawyer]

I'm curious what caused this radical shift in combat design from May to September (going from "easier than NWN2" to "more challenging than NWN2"

It wasn't really a radical shift, but an adjustment to ramp up combat more over the course of the expansion. It was always intended to start out pretty easy (which it did) and get harder. The amount of ramping was what changed, and it changed because I and other people played it and found that the low difficulty got old quickly. MotB still isn't a "hard" expansion, but the final product is harder than it was to begin with.

 

A raise in overall challenge level really doesn't have anything to do with epic levels. They obviously went from wanting to decrease the challenge to actually increase it, both tactically and from a resource management perspective (by adding the spirit meter mechanic). I found NWN2's combat to be tedious and boring, but it would be interesting to know why Obsidian initially planned to make MotB even less challenging.

Well no, it does have to do with epic levels. The range of bonuses available to players at that level, and the array of feats and abilities that players may or may not have, is enormous when you get into the 20+ range. At low levels in 3E/3.5, characters can vary, but with a limited range of variance. That range becomes big once you start clocking in above 15th level and outright crazy in the mid-20s. To make things challenging, mathematically, for min-maxing players at that level practically means that there is not much hope for "non-optimizing" players. The difference between an attack bonus between the two could be +10, which starts to eclipse the relevance of the die being rolled.

 

The "solution", such as it was, was not so much to make the probabilistic elements crazy, but to feature more creatures with distinct strengths and weaknesses that required, if not hard counters, a mixed strategy for character prep and mixed tactics for dealing with them round-to-round. Players did have to think a bit more about who was doing what in combat, but it was not essential to min-max characters to win. Of course, those who both min-maxed and used sound tactic would roll the battles anyway.

[kirottu]

So, is it worth to buy NWN2 + MOTB only to play MOTB while never looking at the main game that is NWN2? Didn't played MOTB yet, and I might be interested in it. And in what kind of way is it connected to PS:T? (I keep reading that folks say it's like a spiritual successor. Only by style or something else?)

 

NWN2 OC is good enough to play it through once or twice and it does have some really nice points like the trial.

[Tale]

I loved the NWN2 OC. I hate feeling so alone in that. Ammon Jerro! Mephasm! The Warlock class!

Edited May 27, 2011 by Tale

[kirottu]

I loved the NWN2 OC. I hate feeling so alone in that. Ammon Jerro! Mephasm! The Warlock class!

 

I would have enjoyed warlock class much more if it could get some nice looking mage-like armor like what Ammon Jerro had.

[C2B]

Past Act 1 OC was enjoyable

Edited May 27, 2011 by C2B

[kirottu]

Past Act 1 OC was enjoyable

 

I

[Starwars]

There are some parts about NWN2 that I quite like ( some parts of Act 2, most of Act 3, Ammon Jerro) but overall it's too much of a slog for me. I think the NWN2 OC is Obsidian's weakest offering yet.

 

MotB is quite awesome though and I really enjoyed SoZ as well. The toolset is fun to play around in also.

[Oner]

I loved the NWN2 OC.

Me too.