Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous, Part 5

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

4 minutes ago, InsaneCommander said:

 

So Shifter b/gf, Through the Ashes 2: Electric Boogaloo, and The Citadel. Not bad tbh, though I would like to see Summoner show up as a class.

[InsaneCommander]

3 hours ago, KP From Another World said:

To be fair she doesn't get them until MR 4, but it's noticeable after that when she gets an "S" tab in the UI when controlling her. Yall really missed out with that.

I'm lazy and when I reassign spells for my characters I click on all of them, one at a time, just to make sure I'm not missing anyone (instead of simply going straight to the ones I know have spell slots). That's how I noticed Aivu had cantrips. Although she couldn't cast them, I also noticed she had a caster level, concentration and all stats, so I kept checking to see if she could cast spells. That is how I didn't miss it.

 

Didn't play much yesterday. I talked with people in the brothel and Aivu was spared from any improprieties. The only person with inappropriate behavior* was an old acquaintance of Arue's, but he was rightly intimidated into oblivion.

*That was a blessing, considering what Chivarro said and the type of creatures that frequent that place. Imagine if one of those floating meatballs and the nabasu were engaging in any activities...

Edited October 25, 2022 by InsaneCommander

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

18 minutes ago, InsaneCommander said:

Imagine if one of those floating meatballs and the nabasu were engaging in any activities...

 

[Zoraptor]

5 hours ago, KP From Another World said:

To be fair she doesn't get them until MR 4, but it's noticeable after that when she gets an "S" tab in the UI when controlling her. Yall really missed out with that.

The issue there is that her UI is treated like the other animal companions which of course cannot cast spells, ie collapsed by default. And no, I didn't go and check if Thog the horse and Dino Nychus the velociraptor could cast spells last night, because that would be silly. You also don't level her up as you do for everyone else so you don't get to 'see' her getting spells. It makes perfect sense that she does from a lore/ world point of view though so yeah, but the game doesn't exactly give you much reason to think about that in context or on a more meta basis.

Also did some more Act 5 stuff
 

Spoiler

ie Ineluctable Prison. I lost more characters to those annoying rolling boulders than in fighting, and it was a lot easier than the Ivory Sanctum especially the final fight. Kind of embarrassing for Baphomet really, keeps on embuing guys with his power and talking them up then they die inside 2 rounds. Especially since Mephistopheles is considerably more challenging on my home ground than Baphomet was on his home ground in Act 4. Hardest fight by far was the purple worms, and that was only hard when you didn't know it was coming. Some good reactivity though since I let Minagho go in the Abyss and she got mentioned as alive (and apparently hoping I take Baphomet out permanently). Also first time I didn't retrieve the Hand's heart and got the option to permanently destroy the prison; that seemed to be absent if I gave the Hand his heart back...

Now doing Nenio's companion quest, which is the last one of those standing. Not far in (? assuming it's reasonably substantial given she hasn't had anything else). Weird difficulty level there, considering one of the masks was in the Prison. Might as well just not have any enemies at all really.

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

23 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

The issue there is that her UI is treated like the other animal companions which of course cannot cast spells, ie collapsed by default. And no, I didn't go and check if Thog the horse and Dino Nychus the velociraptor could cast spells last night, because that would be silly. You also don't level her up as you do for everyone else so you don't get to 'see' her getting spells. It makes perfect sense that she does from a lore/ world point of view though so yeah, but the game doesn't exactly give you much reason to think about that in context or on a more meta basis.

Also did some more Act 5 stuff
 

  Reveal hidden contents

ie Ineluctable Prison. I lost more characters to those annoying rolling boulders than in fighting, and it was a lot easier than the Ivory Sanctum especially the final fight. Kind of embarrassing for Baphomet really, keeps on embuing guys with his power and talking them up then they die inside 2 rounds. Especially since Mephistopheles is considerably more challenging on my home ground than Baphomet was on his home ground in Act 4. Hardest fight by far was the purple worms, and that was only hard when you didn't know it was coming. Some good reactivity though since I let Minagho go in the Abyss and she got mentioned as alive (and apparently hoping I take Baphomet out permanently). Also first time I didn't retrieve the Hand's heart and got the option to permanently destroy the prison; that seemed to be absent if I gave the Hand his heart back...

Now doing Nenio's companion quest, which is the last one of those standing. Not far in (? assuming it's reasonably substantial given she hasn't had anything else). Weird difficulty level there, considering one of the masks was in the Prison. Might as well just not have any enemies at all really.

 

The game definitely could do a better job in explaning the special mythic companions. It is also that weird in the vanilla game that you don't level Aivu or the Lich skelly given that you do level regular animal companions. Lost opportunity.

Oh, and your critters can put skill points into UMD and read scrolls, in case you ever wanted a raptor who could use Shield on itself. Silly is to go to for this game.

[Gromnir]

3 hours ago, InsaneCommander said:

"..and spend some quality time with your beloved."

*Shows you and Camellia.

through the ashes advanced on rails, but it offered the most unique and intriguing gameplay elements o' any owlcat dlc offering thus far... and in our opinion it were arguable more impressive from a design pov than the main campaigns o' the two released pathfinder games. example: is one map where we fought almost not at all as we would lure one set o' enemies into combat with otherwise difficult monster encounters, at which point the baddies would murder each other as 'posed to Gromnir. a few o' the non-combat solutions were scripted and skill-based, but as with the cubes v undead scenario we just mentioned, other gameplay solutions were less obvious. design o' ashes were at times frustrating and even stoopid, but it were also creative and offered a glimpse o' future possibilities for a owlcat pathfinder crpg.

the lowest pathfinder levels is often frustrating, with a single goblin/kobold/skeleton spear attack critical capable o' killing your wizard or sorc with a single strike. also, the difficulty o' ashes were a bit more noticeable than the main campaign. combine low-level inherent lethal + increased difficulty and ashes were bordering on less than fun when we played on hard and am gonna highly recommend playing no higher than core for anybody who ain't experimented with it thus far. positive: a second ashes dlc means am gonna be less likely stuck in a level range where even on core we feel horses and leopards is quasi-essential additions to a party

am genuine looking forward to through the ashes 2nd installment.

HA! Good Fun!

[majestic]

3 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Now doing Nenio's companion quest, which is the last one of those standing.

My condolences.

Edit: I'd rather replay the full battle squares in IWD2 than doing Enigma again.

Edited October 25, 2022 by majestic

[InsaneCommander]

3 hours ago, Gromnir said:

through the ashes advanced on rails, but it offered the most unique and intriguing gameplay elements o' any owlcat dlc offering thus far... and in our opinion it were arguable more impressive from a design pov than the main campaigns o' the two released pathfinder games.

I wonder if they agree with this. It would make future games more interesting.

[Gromnir]

2 hours ago, majestic said:

My condolences.

Edit: I'd rather replay the full battle squares in IWD2 than doing Enigma again.

 

2 hours ago, InsaneCommander said:

I wonder if they agree with this. It would make future games more interesting.

am quoting both @majestic & @InsaneCommander 'cause the observations is curious related. 

why is owlcat so enamored with puzzle content which does not resonate with fans? check for wotr feedback regarding the title's puzzle content and enigma specific. maybe ain't universal, but the consensus opinion is owlcat does puzzle content poor. so 'course with each new release, puzzles become more integral and ubiquitous.

wait, what?

at the same time, much o' owlcat design does indeed look to be laser-focused on giving their fans what they perceive the fans want. the mythic paths is munchkiny and the writing is if not parody then is embracing the cringey end o' the spectrum, presumable 'cause owlcat is pandering to their audience. almost no effort is taken by owlcat to balance pathfinder. the mythics, which is owlcat creations, go a step beyond pathfinder's already exploit riddled ruleset in making sooper builds possible. owlcat knows their fanbase and they is quite happy to create cringey and busted content if it nevertheless satisfies the base.  

as for ashes, am admitted unsure what were the fanbase reaction to the newish gameplay elements incorporated into the dlc. if the fans didn't like enough, then maybe ashes style is doomed. then again, maybe owlcat is as invested in ashes improvements as they is with their puzzles.  fan approval o' ashes 1 and 2 may be irrelevant if owlcat believes in themselves. 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gorth]

3 hours ago, Gromnir said:

why is owlcat so enamored with puzzle content which does not resonate with fans? check for wotr feedback regarding the title's puzzle content and enigma specific. maybe ain't universal, but the consensus opinion is owlcat does puzzle content poor. so 'course with each new release, puzzles become more integral and ubiquitous.

1) I haven't finished the game yet (in act v, working my way towards a place called Iz, slowly and steadily) and 2) I never played "real" rpgs, as in actual table top gaming sessions with a DM.

But, while struggling through puzzles and getting increasingly annoyed (to put it very mildly, I'll leave out the cussing) with the number and complexity of them, I remember friends from my youth who did play table top rpg. One thing they discussed once was puzzles. If your character has Int 32, the character should be able to solve the puzzle for the player. The character should not struggle just because the player doesn't have Int 32. Similar 4th wall breaking stuff doesn't seem to happen with other stats. Ah, your barbarian needs to remove that boulder at the entrance? Be a good sport and go out in the garden and pick up a 200kg rock to show the player can do it just as well as his character

At least let Nenio or some other high Int character give you more clues to the solution (instead of google).

[xzar_monty]

1 hour ago, Gorth said:

But, while struggling through puzzles and getting increasingly annoyed (to put it very mildly, I'll leave out the cussing) with the number and complexity of them, I remember friends from my youth who did play table top rpg. One thing they discussed once was puzzles. If your character has Int 32, the character should be able to solve the puzzle for the player. The character should not struggle just because the player doesn't have Int 32.

Yeah. This remains a problem in tabletop. There's also the opposite problem: the player, having played for decades, will inevitably know stuff (general lore, monsters etc.) that his character shouldn't know at, say, level 2. This stuff is annoying every now and then, but usually it can be dealt with.

[bugarup]

LOL, so the Citadel DLC takes place in Chapter 3, when your "loved one" is plural and before Liches and Swarms do things that they do?  Coulda put it in Chapter 4 then, Alushinyrra sure knows how to party, 'sides, such a missed chance for Staunton and Minagho's reunion and ~wacky hijinks~ that would follow 

[majestic]

Oh dear god, do not give them any ideas, imagine what rigor mortis could do to Minhago's and Staunton's... uhm... brrrrrz. Brain reset. Reset.

Reboot complete.

Hi, I recently played this game, and I liked it a lot, except for the puzzle content. What do you think?

[uuuhhii]

6 hours ago, Gorth said:

1) I haven't finished the game yet (in act v, working my way towards a place called Iz, slowly and steadily) and 2) I never played "real" rpgs, as in actual table top gaming sessions with a DM.

But, while struggling through puzzles and getting increasingly annoyed (to put it very mildly, I'll leave out the cussing) with the number and complexity of them, I remember friends from my youth who did play table top rpg. One thing they discussed once was puzzles. If your character has Int 32, the character should be able to solve the puzzle for the player. The character should not struggle just because the player doesn't have Int 32. Similar 4th wall breaking stuff doesn't seem to happen with other stats. Ah, your barbarian needs to remove that boulder at the entrance? Be a good sport and go out in the garden and pick up a 200kg rock to show the player can do it just as well as his character

At least let Nenio or some other high Int character give you more clues to the solution (instead of google).

puzzle in many adventure path of paizo are not designed like the complete nonsense of owlcat at all

the self indulgent puzzle design doesn't even scream malicious sadism like fromsoft design

just incompetent and lack self awareness of a few designer

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

9 hours ago, Gorth said:

1) I haven't finished the game yet (in act v, working my way towards a place called Iz, slowly and steadily) and 2) I never played "real" rpgs, as in actual table top gaming sessions with a DM.

But, while struggling through puzzles and getting increasingly annoyed (to put it very mildly, I'll leave out the cussing) with the number and complexity of them, I remember friends from my youth who did play table top rpg. One thing they discussed once was puzzles. If your character has Int 32, the character should be able to solve the puzzle for the player. The character should not struggle just because the player doesn't have Int 32. Similar 4th wall breaking stuff doesn't seem to happen with other stats. Ah, your barbarian needs to remove that boulder at the entrance? Be a good sport and go out in the garden and pick up a 200kg rock to show the player can do it just as well as his character

At least let Nenio or some other high Int character give you more clues to the solution (instead of google).

You're in for a real treat with Enigma. I highly reccomend using the guide to get through it unless you are into sadomasochism, in which case I also reccomend you use a guide because Enigma is truly awful to try and figure out on your own. Owlcat not only doesn't let your intellect or knowledge/lore skills clue you in to the puzzle solutions, they also provide little in game hints on how to solve them. Truly horrible design.

5 hours ago, majestic said:

Hi, I recently played this game, and I liked it a lot, except for the puzzle content. What do you think?

Well I started thinking about some shipping between a demon and a corpse, but now all I can think of is how great this mod is: https://www.nexusmods.com/pathfinderwrathoftherighteous/mods/246?tab=description

Hope it gets updated.

[Hawke64]

Nenio gives some hints for dialogue-based puzzles (one or two, if I remember correctly). Though, the dungeon itself is an exercise in frustration - the puzzle rules are not exactly clear, the interface is not meant for puzzles, most of the combat encounters are very similar in nature.
I have been thinking about replaying WotR (haven't done the Angel Mythic Path and it is said to be the most developed one), but the length of a playthrough is quite discouraging. Also the Enigma.

[ShadySands]

9 hours ago, bugarup said:

LOL, so the Citadel DLC takes place in Chapter 3, when your "loved one" is plural and before Liches and Swarms do things that they do?  Coulda put it in Chapter 4 then, Alushinyrra sure knows how to party, 'sides, such a missed chance for Staunton and Minagho's reunion and ~wacky hijinks~ that would follow 

Really? I would have assumed chapter 5 would have been the best fit for something like that.

[bugarup]

1 hour ago, ShadySands said:

Really? I would have assumed chapter 5 would have been the best fit for something like that.

I think I read it's 3, but now Reddit says Owlcat's PR for reddit said it's 5. Which is of course much better, especially for Liches.

Albeit Swarm should have interesting times too. I bet there would be all-you-can-eat buffet.

 

[InsaneCommander]

8 hours ago, majestic said:

Oh dear god, do not give them any ideas, imagine what rigor mortis could do to Minhago's and Staunton's... uhm... brrrrrz. Brain reset. Reset.

[Zoraptor]

I'm getting the sense that advocating for a dlc of nothing but puzzles was actually sarcasm?

Hit a bug at the end of Enigma which leaves me unable to leave. Not the only bug I ran into in that last fight either, which isn't great given it has an intrinsically annoying design. Good news is that now I get to replay it, if I want to! Also hit the level cap at the end of that fight, which I generally loathe in RPGs.

The puzzles were... far from the worst, though they're also very, very far from good. Most adventure games I've played had less intuitive ones, though that's not exactly a high bar to pass and that's kind of adventure games' thing. The real negatives are the masses of repetitive monsters (many with annoying abilities) and a lot of backtracking.

I'll spoiler the last bit, since I wouldn't want anyone else to miss out

Spoiler

Good joke at the end too, needing 7 blue crystals to open the last door and the treasure there being, well, decidedly underwhelming.

 

[Gromnir]

speaking o' sarcasm, the goggles is arguable one o' the best pre dlc face equip able items in the game, so...

chances are you only acquire the goggles of mind control late in the game, but for an enchanter or illusionist character, they become bis gear. depending on party composition and difficulty setting, the goggles may be forgettable, 'but 'cause am typical having nenio and/or ember (am 50/50 on blaster ember v. enchanter ember) built to exploit mind effect spells, the goggles has had us enduring enigma multiple times even though the thought o' another enigma completion fills us with as much anticipation as does chewing on aluminum foil. 

however, am gonna admit that to get real use from nenio as an illusionist or ember as an enchanter is requiring metagamey nonsense, 'cause you need every bit o' dc boosting gear to be effective at all but the lowest difficulty levels. need optional boss 1007 drops or hidden gear? sans all the right equipment and an ideal build results in nenio being more useful as a blaster than an illusionist.

aside, am thinking is kinda a d-bag move for owlcat to design nenio's endgame quest with so many undead, 'cause chances are your nenio illusionist is sooper effective 'gainst undead. (<--sarcasm) for our enigma runs, heightened and selective sciroccos, glitterdust and grease get more nenio usage than does her illusion spells. purposeful design an endgame area where as a developer you know nenio will be in the party and then purposeful populate with the type o' enemy nenio is less effective 'gainst... assuming you didn't take one level o' sorc to get the kitsune the undead bloodline. why?

but yeah, enigma is a slog and there has been endless complaints regarding the content

is curious owlcat thinks the criticism o' their puzzles and enigma in particular is funny as 'posed to a call for change... 'cause inevitable excess were designed with more o' the most annoying aspects o' enigma being essential gameplay. if you don't like backtracking and repetitive combat encounters, then you are sure to enjoy inevitable excess.

HA! Good Fun!

[Gromnir]

been dealing with a dog health issue, so no gaming o' late, but am serious thinking o' changing our dirge bard to skald. the competence bonus from the bard songs no longer stacks with guarded hearth, which is a serious drawback for our gameplay style particular during the boss battles. 'course we got a similar problem with our azata build and a prospective switch to court poet as the morale bonus from believe in yourself don't stack with court poet song. lethal stance line o' rage powers is also competence-based, so our preferred skald build is initial undercut. however, the reckless stance bonus is untyped and stacks with everything. the ac penalty for reckless stance is gonna be negated complete by the inspired rage power natural armour bonus, so we end up with a groovy attack bonus sans any measurable ac penalty. add all the natural attack rage powers as well for our critter heavy party and skald looks like a winner, though am taking one level o' crossblood sorc for the fey and then either the undead or serpentine bloodlines, which means we miss on the skald capstone ability which is one o' the best in wotr. 

will probable go human instead o' half-elf. we wanted to max enchantment dc as much as possible. unfortunate, you can't always get what you want, but if you try sometime you'll find you get what you need. our enchantment dc will be one less than what we would see with the half elf, but the human feat and skill bonuses can't be overlooked particular as skalds receive fewer skill points than bards. 

odd, but after some reflection am thinking the best enchantment spells is available to the inquisitor. serious. too bad you need wait a long time before you have access to mass castigate, greater command and overwhelming presence. it is possible with loremaster to acquire hideous laughter earlyish to make use o' best joke mythic. 

HA! Good Fun!

[bugarup]

I made a court poet for Azata myffic, but, well, it's kind of boring to play (granted, I'm a level 6 just outta Chapter 1, but still) and I'm not sure what else can I do with it after I get Dirge O'Doom at 10. Also to my surprise, the starknife - ninja star looking thing - is not a ranged weapon. It's ****ing melee. How can you even use that thing without constantly poking your own armpit?  Shifter druid so far is, eh...anything he can do, his own animal can do better. Lets see what Chapter 3 and Aeon brings to table. I'm also definitely not making a summoner, because with their AI any boost is a complete waste of resources on those braindead idiots.  Another disappointment of the year is brown fur transmuter. Yeah sure, he can make big ass dragons (that is, if the game registers the "Transmute others" click because quite regularly it does not and I end up dragoning my Lich's own bony ass instead), thing is, WOTR is almost all interiors or cramped narrow passages so navigating around is a pain in the (big huge scaly) behind, and so is targeting.  Besides, I kinda hoped that Staunton will become a cool zombie undead dragon but he didn't.  Also made an enchanter Lich. He's serviceable, though I have a strong suspicion that killing things by way of the Lich would be faster than toying with enchantments. Oh, and those bloodline thingies that are supposed to make enchanty spells work on criiters and undeads? They do nothing and this is my surprised face: 

Edited October 31, 2022 by bugarup
No paragraphs because forum does not allow me to make them :[

[Gromnir]

48 minutes ago, bugarup said:

Oh, and those bloodline thingies that are supposed to make enchanty spells work on criiters and undeads? They do nothing and this is my surprised face: 

there is a whole lotta exceptions to the bloodline efficacy perks. got an undead beast as 'posed to a humanoid, then chances are the undead perk is useless. need also be corporeal undead for enchantment to work.

the last area we played with our enchanter build were the act iii three dragon burial ground which is populated by giant spiders and undead. our best joke enhanced hideous laughter were working quite well 'gainst the undead. 

but yeah, is almost more undead which is exceptions to the bloodline powha than undead which is vulnerable.

HA! Good Fun!

[xzar_monty]

9 hours ago, Gromnir said:

it is possible with loremaster to acquire hideous laughter earlyish to make use o' best joke mythic.

The best joke mythic power was one that I juggled in my mind for a while. Its idea is so nice that I absolutely wanted it, but given the opponents I was likely going to face, I wondered whether it'd be useful and whether it would be better to take those "extra spells" powers first. I ended up making a choice which turned out to be quite ok, in terms of efficacy vs. role-playing fun.

But that "Killed the giants" bug still persists so I haven't been furthering my new playthrough one bit.

 

EDIT: new patch out today. Did they fix the bug mentioned above? No.

Edited October 31, 2022 by xzar_monty