Ukraine Conflict - Alle Dinge unterliegen Interpretation je nachdem, was Interpretation zu einem bestimmten Zeitpunkt herrscht, ist eine Funktion der Macht und nicht die Wahrheit

[Malcador]

7 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Malc you mustn't consider either Reddit or Twitter to be credible sources of information for most topics

They tend to become ideological battlegrounds for the radical left, far-right and other extremist  groups. Of course their is always some truth in these platforms but its inconsistent and should rather be avoided 

But there are still people reacting that way, believing everything from one "side", so to speak. 

[Chilloutman]

We here in eastern EU are not stupid. Its clear that US and West covering their basis and going to earn something in this war. But for me it doesn't matter. Even if they want just gas or buy some businesses or whatever. Its always better than anything Russians bring. In late 19th century there was large pan-slavic movement in eastern Europe. One of the great pro pan-slavic author in CZ once went to Russia and when he got back he turned 180. This is his famous citation:

 

"Russians like to call everything Russian Slavic, so that they can claim that everything Slavic is Russian."

[Sarex]

3 hours ago, majestic said:

My great-grandmother used to tell tales of how it was being caught between the Wehrmacht, the Red Army and Tito's Partisans way back in World War 2. My grandmother and her brother (the latter who is still alive) also told tales of their wonderful childhood. Starvation, death camps, watching former neighbours shooting each other because they were the wrong ethnicity. People losing their livelihood and their life's work over being not German enough, or too German... fun stuff, all in all. Special military operations certainly bring out the best in people.

Don't worry Tito's Partisans were just as bad to "their own" people and let me add that the Allies were not much better.

[kanisatha]

4 hours ago, majestic said:

My great-grandmother used to tell tales of how it was being caught between the Wehrmacht, the Red Army and Tito's Partisans way back in World War 2. My grandmother and her brother (the latter who is still alive) also told tales of their wonderful childhood. Starvation, death camps, watching former neighbours shooting each other because they were the wrong ethnicity. People losing their livelihood and their life's work over being not German enough, or too German... fun stuff, all in all. Special military operations certainly bring out the best in people.

So very interesting.

I grew up on stories from my grandma and others of that generation about the other half of WW2. My grand-aunts were in Singapore when it fell to the Japanese, and got to experience first-hand the brutality and horror of life under Japanese occupation. My grandparents, with my mom as a toddler, were on the last ship out of Rangoon, Burma, and watched the horror of Japanese aircraft bombing the departing passenger ships and people in the water getting eaten by sharks.

[Zoraptor]

12 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

What you say here does not sound convincing. You originally spoke about "the sort of people who think all Russians are braindead and lack critical reasoning proceeding to believe and repeat without question" the stuff presented by their own government officials.

It isn't particularly noticeable here, though there is a bit of related stuff- "The Russians are barbarians, they did this to Finland in the 1700s"

--> The British are Barbarians, they starved tens of millions of indians to death and fought a war to sell opium to the Chinese in the 1800s (and depopulated Diego Garcia plus merrily tortured their way through Kenya and other colonial possessions well within living memory). It's mostly on the internet in general (and broadcast media) where official says --> media report --> it must be true! happens.

But I don't really want to get into that specifically because it's been done to death and even I get bored of it eventually.

Quote

When certain media publish this stuff, it does not imply belief, although I do agree that simple repetition of it does not look very convincing, either. But we are talking about certain media, we are not talking about "everywhere" and "for everything". Interestingly, the war has highlighted the quality of various media outlets and the lack of quality in various other media outlets. Your original point that I objected to, the one that gets repeated in the paragraph above, may carry some weight in the sense that there probably are people like that (there are all kinds of people), but I haven't seen evidence of this phenomenon being noticeable.

Publishing most certainly does imply belief*, the way that those claims are published. It's like asking someone if they think the opinion- and what is opinion on such things, but weighting of facts?- they're stating is the correct one; of course they think it is, or they'd state a different opinion. Journalists are people and will always frame it as stuff they believe vs stuff they think is false, and 'unnamed US official' pretty much always seems to get treated as truth, even when stating things that aren't consistent to even a cursory examination. And the people publishing know that many will simply repeat those claims as if they're true because they see them on the news.

For the point above there's also a very strong irony/ dichotomy and indicator in that. The 'mainstream' media shouts loudly about how terrible it is that alternative media gets believed over them and how there are a lot of idiots around who have fallen down the rabbithole or whatever, but try to have their cake and eat it to by saying that they don't influence people to their beliefs but just do 'the news'/ 'the facts'.

*ok, it doesn't for trash/ agenda media, unfortunately just about all media can be trash media- and especially agenda media- under the right (wrong) circumstances.

[BruceVC]

8 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

It isn't particularly noticeable here, though there is a bit of related stuff- "The Russians are barbarians, they did this to Finland in the 1700s"

--> The British are Barbarians, they starved tens of millions of indians to death and fought a war to sell opium to the Chinese in the 1800s (and depopulated Diego Garcia plus merrily tortured their way through Kenya and other colonial possessions well within living memory). It's mostly on the internet in general (and broadcast media) where official says --> media report --> it must be true! happens.

But I don't really want to get into that specifically because it's been done to death and even I get bored of it eventually.

Publishing most certainly does imply belief*, the way that those claims are published. It's like asking someone if they think the opinion- and what is opinion on such things, but weighting of facts?- they're stating is the correct one; of course they think it is, or they'd state a different opinion. Journalists are people and will always frame it as stuff they believe vs stuff they think is false, and 'unnamed US official' pretty much always seems to get treated as truth, even when stating things that aren't consistent to even a cursory examination. And the people publishing know that many will simply repeat those claims as if they're true because they see them on the news.

For the point above there's also a very strong irony/ dichotomy and indicator in that. The 'mainstream' media shouts loudly about how terrible it is that alternative media gets believed over them and how there are a lot of idiots around who have fallen down the rabbithole or whatever, but try to have their cake and eat it to by saying that they don't influence people to their beliefs but just do 'the news'/ 'the facts'.

*ok, it doesn't for trash/ agenda media, unfortunately just about all media can be trash media- and especially agenda media- under the right (wrong) circumstances.

No Im still not convinced  that the Russians are not responsible for  widespread war crimes, rape and mass killings of civilians in Ukraine 

In fact this post has changed my mind even less than your last post on this topic

[Mamoulian War]

Russian soldiers are barbarians. Period. Nothing has changed in the mentality of their military leaders since 1700.

[ShadySands]

Wife's family is more split than ever now. The ones that support Russia don't want to hear anything contrary to their beliefs and get really angry when you ask them to explain their position after complaining that no one is taking their view into account. The only bright spot is my wife's aunt in St Petersburg, she says there's nothing she can do about so why discuss it. That's not great but better than the indignation you get from everyone else. Cousin in Ukraine was nearly killed the other day when Russia struck Kiev during the UN visit.

[BruceVC]

24 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

Wife's family is more split than ever now. The ones that support Russia don't want to hear anything contrary to their beliefs and get really angry when you ask them to explain their position after complaining that no one is taking their view into account. The only bright spot is my wife's aunt in St Petersburg, she says there's nothing she can do about so why discuss it. That's not great but better than the indignation you get from everyone else. Cousin in Ukraine was nearly killed the other day when Russia struck Kiev during the UN visit.

My advice is just leave it, dont try to change the Russian families view. Sometimes people who live in autocratic  countries survive, and sometimes thrive, by believing a certain false narrative. Its unlikely you  can expect them to change their views because then the whole Putin government,  house of cards, is false and that could be unbearable because of what people have had to accept because " only Putin can save Russia " 

And as your wifes aunt said you cant change the system anyway within Russia so for some believing the Putin lie is too important to their Russian identity  to be untrue 

[Mamoulian War]

@Lexx do you have some more information about this, please?

 

[Lexx]

First time I'm hearing about this.

[ShadySands]

@BruceVC, the goal here is just understanding. I'm not trying to convince them of anything and I doubt I'll be swayed by their arguments but I don't think there should be no dialogue just because neither side can "win." Because as I just said, that's not the goal here.

[rjshae]

My cynical side makes me wonder if we should be supplying RU-486 for the rape victims. I know it's a horrible thought.

[BruceVC]

11 hours ago, ShadySands said:

@BruceVC, the goal here is just understanding. I'm not trying to convince them of anything and I doubt I'll be swayed by their arguments but I don't think there should be no dialogue just because neither side can "win." Because as I just said, that's not the goal here.

I was thinking about the family dynamic you in the middle of and it must be tough to navigate emotionally

We have family in the UK who were born their and then SA family members who live in the US and Oz. Its complicated the family ties but end of the day the biggest difference  of opinion, I am aware of,  we have had was more around  the US with some people supporting Trump and some being opposed to him and that was a  minor  rift between some family members.

But we have never had to deal with  something like Putins War as this has definitely caused tensions between many families in both Russia and Ukraine because of the close ties between the 2 countries

But nothing changes the reality. Russia invaded Ukraine unprovoked so when you look at the devastation and atrocities committed by the Russian military for anyone living in Ukraine, who  do have access to free media, it must be incredibly frustrating to hear people in Russia say things like " yes but Russia had no choice, we had to invade Ukraine because of Nazis\Nukes " or other spurious reasons  

So I can sympathize with your Ukrainian family 

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, rjshae said:

My cynical side makes me wonder if we should be supplying RU-486 for the rape victims. I know it's a horrible thought.

Its a good idea, one of the problems of using this drug for many Ukrainians is they are fundamentally opposed to abortion because of religious beliefs

But I agree, it needs to be part of the aid sent to Ukraine 

[xzar_monty]

On 4/29/2022 at 3:18 PM, Malcador said:

Go browse Reddit or Twitter, you'll see lots.  Or maybe just people that only watch stuff like CNN or MSNBC, etc.

I have no doubt of this. But that is not "everywhere", as I'm sure you'll agree.

Also, why would I browse those? Cannot see a more total waste of time.

[xzar_monty]

On 4/30/2022 at 10:41 AM, Mamoulian War said:

Russian soldiers are barbarians. Period. Nothing has changed in the mentality of their military leaders since 1700.

Speaking of barbarians, it is astonishing to read the reports of Russian soldiers having defecated all over the floors in the areas they occupied -- or how "on their way out, Russian soldiers scrawled profane messages on the walls — in human excrement" (The New York Times).

This is a mirror image of what they did in one of the monasteries they famously occupied way way back. They used the altar and the area around the altar as the place do to their big business. The altar was valuable for the owners, so precisely that was the place to be tarnished and soiled as thoroughly as possible.

 

@Zoraptor: I wholeheartedly agree with what you say of the various misdeeds of the British. And looking at the Middle-East, for instance, both Britain and the US have made some awful decisions in just the past one hundred years -- awful both in their cynicism and their violent results (which took some time to emerge). However, I still think that when we consider "all of history", to the extent that we know it, Russia ranks among the most violent, brutal, cynical and untrustworthy entities we have ever seen, both internally and internationally -- i.e. both in how it treats its own and how it treats others. We don't have to agree on this.

[xzar_monty]

On 4/29/2022 at 7:17 PM, kanisatha said:

My grand-aunts were in Singapore when it fell to the Japanese, and got to experience first-hand the brutality and horror of life under Japanese occupation.

The Japanese have some serious brutality in their history, this is so true. Reading about the Nanjing Massacre, for instance, isn't likely to increase your appetite. I have little doubt that the potential for extreme brutality lies in nearly all of us. Christopher R. Browning's famous (?) book Ordinary Men gives a chilling description of how the people committing the most awful deeds were, indeed, ordinary men.

Also, war, as a phenomenon, brutalizes people. Having said that, Russia still remains an exceptionally brutal and untrustworthy country, and the evidence for that is almost overwhelming. I have recently read from various sources that the collapse of Russia appears more likely than any real change towards a more "western-style" democracy. That remains to be seen. I certainly don't have much hope that Russia changes -- or that it even has any interest in considering change. We have seen that even if ordinary people in Russia suffer and die (from poverty, malnutrition, whatever), that won't affect the thinking of the ones in power. Clearly, at the moment, there is no regard for the Russian soldiers dying on the Ukrainian front, they are cannon-fodder.

[Mamoulian War]

The collapse of Russia has pretty high probability for one simple reason. Putin has raised no one as his successor (Unlike Yeltsin, who raised him), so it is likely that the siloviks, which survive the current ongoing purge, will get at each other throats after something happens (be it natural or unnatural) to Putin. Even if he manages to win this war..

[xzar_monty]

Yes, I agree. Putin is very much the dictator now -- there is no politburo or anything like that that they used to have in bygone days.

The idea of Russia turning into a group or warring factions doesn't sound good, either, by the way. So the future looks fairly bleak over there (and elsewhere).

Edited May 1, 2022 by xzar_monty

[xzar_monty]

Small news unlikely to have received wider coverage: a Russian military airplane has breached Swedish airspace. Again. This has happened quite a lot in the past weeks and months.

I am not Swedish, but living in the north of Europe, I know very well that Russia is the neighbour from Hell. It's a bully that has no regard for any treaties, agreements or anything. If anyone wants to confront Russia with this knowledge, Russia instantly adopts the victim position and makes noise about how other countries are "unfriendly", or even "hostile" towards Russia.

[Malcador]

4 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

I have no doubt of this. But that is not "everywhere", as I'm sure you'll agree.

Also, why would I browse those? Cannot see a more total waste of time.

It comes pretty close, those sites are heavily used, but whatever. And didn't say you should read them, but their existence doesn't depend on it. 

In other news, UN and ICRC are managing an evacuation of Mariupol, so that's good news.

[Mamoulian War]

Hmm looks like a lot of railway bridges are having now accidents at Russian territory close to Ukraine.

[Zoraptor]

Ukraine confirms Ghost of Kyiv didn't actually exist. Not so much relevant here, but good lord there were a lot of people who thought any hint he wasn't real had to be Russian disinformation.

Think Ukraine (and the Beeb) got tired of him being killed off more times than Shoigu's been arrested/ sacked/ had a heart attack just so the British tabloids could sell more copies. Best article quote, and approaching peak passive aggressive: "Military experts told the BBC they doubted that one pilot could have downed as many as 40 Russian planes"- oh, really?

[The Daily Mirror (British tabloid) killed him off two days ago, and that's where the 40 Russian planes shot down quote got published]

[Sarex]

Latest rumor is that Valery Gerasimov has been wounded and a lot of senior staff killed in Izium.