The All Things Political Topic - Those who do not move, do not notice their chains

[Chairchucker]

2 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Interesting post, you raise some good talking points 

I do think you are conflating some issues like credit  profile checks with racism, banks dont decide on loans based on race they decide on risk profile and whether you can pay back the loan. I have never heard of anyone not getting finance because of their race? Maybe you can provide links so I see what you talking about, do you know how many white people  I know who  have had credit and things like home loans denied to them?

I dont agree the Western world is largely racist, it exists but it is incidents of racism and not structural. Do you think bigotry  is worse in the West or in places like the ME, Russia and China? At least in Western countries their is societal and media acknowledgement  and criticism of it or do you disagree?

How many white people you know who have had credit denied is largely irrelevant. Systemic problems are not proven or disproven by anecdotal evidence of examples you know of personally. 'People you know personally' is a very poor and unscientific sample size. No, in fact the studies they've done that have found that systemic racism does exist, deal with thousands more people. Now you're right that they won't write on the application, 'loan denied on account of applicant being black'. Not since 1968 when the Fair Housing Act made it illegal to actually have race based mortgage lending as a matter of open policy, which had previously been the case. So then you have to get creative if you want to be 'picky' about which ethnicities you're lending to, as reports such as this one found:

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/31/nyregion/hudson-city-bank-settlement.html

The obvious problem with passing a law that makes it illegal for banks to explicitly discriminate based on race as a matter of policy, as they had previously, is that the people in the positions to approve or not approve lending are still the exact same people who were openly using racist methods beforehand. It may surprise you to hear that when these lenders were forced by law to stop openly doing the racist things they were doing as a matter of policy, it didn't immediately cure their institutions of the racist lending habits.

 

There's a similar thing that goes on with voting, BTW. Now, if you really wanted to rig voting, and you were, hypothetically, a Republican, your first instinct might be to simply pass a law that says no one is allowed to vote Democrat anymore. Unsurprisingly, that's illegal, but did you know that you can look at the demographics and find that black and hispanic voters are more likely to vote Democrat? Again, though, you can't explicitly prevent people from voting based on their ethnicity. Not since 1964, anyway. But what you can do, is you can have insufficient polling booths in majority black areas to serve the voting needs of all the voters there. You can find that, statistically, certain photo ID laws overwhelmingly make it harder for black people to vote, and therefore try to legislate such laws. You could conduct robocall campaigns in predominantly black neighbourhoods telling them not to bother voting because the election had already been called.

 

Now sure, these things could theoretically be done by black people in at the expense of white voters but since the people in those positions of power are overwhelmingly white, that's not usually the way it pans out. Systemic racism still happens a lot in the USA, it's pretty well documented.

 

Is it worse than Russia or China? Dunno. Frankly I think the government of both those places seem pretty garbage, and we shouldn't be using them as a yard stick. It's like measuring how much of a good person you are against Jeffrey Dahmer. "Haven't killed or eaten anyone today, so if you look at this graph, I'm still on zero and therefore: good person."

Edited February 3, 2022 by Chairchucker

[Chairchucker]

1 hour ago, majestic said:

This is me, reading the posts in this thread, talking to my screen:

 

Yes, a slur that has not aged well, and reflects poorly on anyone who continues to use it.

 

Side note: does that one tiktok video autoplay for anyone else every time they get to this damn page? And, like, all three times - the original and both the quotes? I haven't listened to it all the way through and I hate it and the guy in it simply for that reason.

[majestic]

3 hours ago, Chairchucker said:

Side note: does that one tiktok video autoplay for anyone else every time they get to this damn page? And, like, all three times - the original and both the quotes? I haven't listened to it all the way through and I hate it and the guy in it simply for that reason.

Yes, but only sometimes. Not sure what causes it, especially since I switched auto play off for videos in Firefox (or it's off by default, either way). Comes with a slight reverb effect due to not playing perfectly synchronous, making it all the more annoying. I also have no idea if that's a real call or a joke thing. 

 

Edited February 3, 2022 by majestic

[Gorth]

3 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Interesting post, you raise some good talking points 

I do think you are conflating some issues like credit  profile checks with racism, banks dont decide on loans based on race they decide on risk profile and whether you can pay back the loan. I have never heard of anyone not getting finance because of their race? Maybe you can provide links so I see what you talking about, do you know how many white people  I know who  have had credit and things like home loans denied to them?

I dont agree the Western world is largely racist, it exists but it is incidents of racism and not structural. Do you think bigotry  is worse in the West or in places like the ME, Russia and China? At least in Western countries their is societal and media acknowledgement  and criticism of it or do you disagree?

And then Im not obsessed with BLM, they represent a vocal but ultimately small part of my ideological views. Some of you guys keep bringing it up every time I mention it but their are many more pertinent developments  than BLM when  we discuss inequality and bigotry. So do you mind dropping the whole " you believe BLM is responsible for all the problems in our societies " ( because thats not what I believe) point when I raise issues about them and just respond to the question I raise about them, I can provide links if necessary to confirm what I am talking about ? 

Oh, I'm sure if I go down to an Australian bank here and ask them for their records on what credits were approved and for who in the past 30 years, they'll be overjoyed to share their confidential information with me! (check out the post by @Chairchucker for some better examples)

 

As for your views on racism in the western world... it would probably lend your position more credibility if you lived and worked for a while in those countries as a non white male. You would be surprised how much subtlety you miss out on if you're in the privileged group (it helps a lot of you have friends in said group and share their experiences with them, it's cringe worthy at times). I haven't lived in Russia or China, so I have no personal observations from those parts of the world.

[Elerond]

4 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Interesting post, you raise some good talking points 

I do think you are conflating some issues like credit  profile checks with racism, banks dont decide on loans based on race they decide on risk profile and whether you can pay back the loan. I have never heard of anyone not getting finance because of their race? Maybe you can provide links so I see what you talking about, do you know how many white people  I know who  have had credit and things like home loans denied to them?

It become even harder to get credit when your credit score is lower just because of zip code for area where you live because it is seen as poor/bad/etc. area, which is true for almost all areas where majority population belongs to minorities in USA.

https://files.consumerfinance.gov/f/201209_Analysis_Differences_Consumer_Credit.pdf

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

1 hour ago, Chairchucker said:

does that one tiktok video autoplay for anyone else every time they get to this damn page?

No.

Anyways....

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/ny-kansas-city-man-fought-ban-lgbtq-books-ryan-utterback-fun-home-20220201-vaa7lkyl3re2dmzy7fqywdoy2i-story.html

Well that's something.

[Guard Dog]

In today's edition of the stupid and absurd news of the world: Texas butterfly sanctuary shuts citing threats from Trump supporters

Politics is a cancer. So are politicians. 

Edited February 3, 2022 by Guard Dog

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, Elerond said:

It become even harder to get credit when your credit score is lower just because of zip code for area where you live because it is seen as poor/bad/etc. area, which is true for almost all areas where majority population belongs to minorities in USA.

https://files.consumerfinance.gov/f/201209_Analysis_Differences_Consumer_Credit.pdf

 

hmmm. am thinking you are misreading. the chart shows a correlation 'tween lower credit scores and purchasers in high minority areas. is not claiming credit companies adjust scores based on whether a consumer lives in an area with high minority population density.

am prefect happy to rage at credit reporting agencies, but your criticism, even if were valid, is not valid 'cause o' the chart you linked. 

HA! Good Fun!

[Hurlshort]

Wells Fargo had to cut me a decent check after it was shown they gave worse rates to minorities during the last housing boom. Shocking that such an upstanding institution would do such a thing. 

[Gfted1]

Youre "caucasian looking" but got a minority rebate? Are you jewish?

[Hurlshort]

2 hours ago, Gfted1 said:

Youre "caucasian looking" but got a minority rebate? Are you jewish?

My wife is Mexican. I'm not sure why you would call it a rebate. They charged us a higher rate on our loan because my wife ticked a certain box on our loan paperwork. That is pretty messed up. Their algorithm literally charged minorities more money for the same service.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-reaches-settlement-wells-fargo-resulting-more-175-million-relief

Edited February 3, 2022 by Hurlsnot

[Gfted1]

Are you sure your prime / subprime status was based on your wifes race, or your combined credit score?  

[Malcador]

45 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

Are you sure your prime / subprime status was based on your wifes race, or your combined credit score?  

Seems fairly llkely. In any case, he got a cheque, would be a fool to turn it down.

 

[Hurlshort]

1 hour ago, Gfted1 said:

Are you sure your prime / subprime status was based on your wifes race, or your combined credit score?  

It doesn't really matter what I thought it was based on. The US Justice Department decided it was based on race.

Honestly I would have no idea. I'm not a mortgage broker or a banker. Like most potential homebuyers, I relied on the experts to get through the process. Live and learn, I suppose. We short-sold the condo during the recession.

[Hurlshort]

In other racist banking news: https://www.yahoo.com/news/houston-doctor-says-chase-bank-172504120.html

[Darkpriest]

12 hours ago, Chairchucker said:

I dunno a damn thing about South Africa and I wouldn't presume to know what the situation is there. In Australia, yes, all of us whiteys automatically, by being born white, have the 'privilege' which is that we don't suffer the systemic discrimination and conscious or unconscious bias that minorities will experience by virtue of not being white.

 

That, of course, doesn't mean that there aren't white people who've grown up in really crappy situations and who might find it odd to hear that they have privilege. Nonetheless, no matter what a white person's economic or social or mental health or whatever else situation may be, it could always be worse by having, in addition to whatever else is going on in their life, the situation of being an ethnic or cultural minority in a country full of institutions and people who have systemic, conscious or unconscious biases against that ethnic or cultural minority. (Or whatever other minority, like sexuality or gender expression.)

I somehow doubt that a white russian would get the privilage you are talking about in Oz, when compared for example to a Spanish white person or an Argentinian... 

[Zoraptor]

ISIS have lost another 'Caliph'- in very similar circumstances to Baghdadi.

Also hits all the stereotypical points from the conflict. Major ISIS figure found in Syria right next to the Turkish border and in an area of Turkish influence/ protection if not outright control. Controlled by the 'reformed' jihadis of Jabhat al Nusra Hayat Tahrir al Sham. Blows himself up rather than be captured. Like Baghdadi (and a significant and literal majority of senior ISIS leaders) was captured and held by the US at Camp Bucca before being released.

I'm always slightly amused when someone choosing to blow themselves up rather than be captured is described as 'cowardly'. If it had been an ISIS raid and a US soldier choosing to blow himself up rather than be captured it would be the height of heroism. Just because you don't like them doesn't make them a coward.

[Hurlshort]

23 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

I somehow doubt that a white russian would get the privilage you are talking about in Oz, when compared for example to a Spanish white person or an Argentinian... 

What a weirdly specific example.

[Malcador]

33 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

ISIS have lost another 'Caliph'- in very similar circumstances to Baghdadi.

Also hits all the stereotypical points from the conflict. Major ISIS figure found in Syria right next to the Turkish border and in an area of Turkish influence/ protection if not outright control. Controlled by the 'reformed' jihadis of Jabhat al Nusra Hayat Tahrir al Sham. Blows himself up rather than be captured. Like Baghdadi (and a significant and literal majority of senior ISIS leaders) was captured and held by the US at Camp Bucca before being released.

I'm always slightly amused when someone choosing to blow themselves up rather than be captured is described as 'cowardly'. If it had been an ISIS raid and a US soldier choosing to blow himself up rather than be captured it would be the height of heroism. Just because you don't like them doesn't make them a coward.

Guess it's due to the other people he decided to take with him.  Other than that, well no loss to the world.  My first assumption was that they droned him and just decided to say he offed himself, heh.

[Darkpriest]

1 hour ago, Hurlsnot said:

What a weirdly specific example.

Trying to make a point, that it's not about a skin tone, but more about ethnicity/culture. You cannot claim that a certain palette of skine tone is more privilaged than the other. You can say, that those who amassed wealth by conquest and were not devastated by a major military conflict (yet...)

You can't tell me and prove that an immigrant to US from Romania has some privilage over a west african descendand, who was raised in US... 

I recall first hand how badly immigrants from central EU were treated in Germany or UK as borders opened for them after EU accession. 

The obly real privilage is wealth and networking. 

Anyone thinking otherwise is deluded and never travelled a world. 

I've experienced racism from Hindu, Persians, Arabs, East Asians (China, Japan, South Korea), various african descendands, 'muricans (all sorts of colonialist descendands), swedes, germans, irish, english (because being a slav descendand is a problem apparently). I've had to prove my worth on so many ocassions I can't count them anymore. I' m sure I wouldn't have to go through more than half of that if I was a law abiding kid of some middle class african family living 3rd gen in US... 

[Gfted1]

3 hours ago, Malcador said:

Seems fairly llkely. In any case, he got a cheque, would be a fool to turn it down.

2 hours ago, Hurlsnot said:

It doesn't really matter what I thought it was based on. The US Justice Department decided it was based on race.

Oh you fell backwards into ill gotten gains? Rofl, awesome.

[Hurlshort]

12 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

Oh you fell backwards into ill gotten gains? Rofl, awesome.

Why do you keep doing that? Ill gotten gains? Rebate? 

I paid the bank $120,000 in interest on my home loan before I sold it. The justice department decided I deserved about $3k of that back. That's hardly me pulling off a great bank heist. Why are you trying so hard to mischaracterize this?

[Zoraptor]

1 hour ago, Malcador said:

My first assumption was that they droned him and just decided to say he offed himself, heh.

The damage to the house was definitely not caused just by a suicide belt and is from casual inspection far more consistent with a missile strike. There are alternative explanations for the damage that don't involve missiles though.

A missile is what some of the locals say as well, though all agree there were ground troops present their and the US accounts differ very significantly. Hard to reconcile the locals' accounts of a two hour gun battle with the US implying a surgical/ precise in and out with minimal fighting (plus losing a helicopter, albeit helicopters are fundamentally unreliable), and though the locals are not trustworthy enough to take at their word the bulk of supplementary evidence does support their version. Civilian casualties (10, from the pro Turkey/ HTS White Helmets or 7 from the more anti Turkey/ HTS SOHR) observed on the ground and from the US recounting do not reconcile at all as they say Qurayshi only killed 2 children and his wife in the blast. That leaves either 7 or 4 civilian deaths, and one or four unexplained potential fighter deaths which is only really consistent with and compatible to the locals' account.

Has to be said, there's at least one pretty recent examples of local accounts being 100% accurate and the US ones being... somewhat unreliable.

[Hurlshort]

30 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

You can't tell me and prove that an immigrant to US from Romania has some privilage over a west african descendand, who was raised in US... 

Strangely enough, we have a fairly large Romanian community in the Bay Area. 

None of them were forced to live on plantations and pick cotton for a few generations though, so I do think they have a bit more privilege. But YMMV while trying to oddly cherry pick specific scenarios that may or may not disprove white privilege is a thing. 

[Gfted1]

40 minutes ago, Hurlsnot said:

Why do you keep doing that? Ill gotten gains? Rebate? 

I paid the bank $120,000 in interest on my home loan before I sold it. The justice department decided I deserved about $3k of that back. That's hardly me pulling off a great bank heist. Why are you trying so hard to mischaracterize this?

Hell, housing is a basic need and should be free.

But I might have misunderstood your case. I thought:

1) You got the interest rate you deserved based on your income, credit history, etc. Not because your wife ticked the "hispanic" box on the loan application.

2) Then Wells Fargo misdeeds were revealed and an opportunity presented itself for you to get free money.

3) Profit?