Politics 20/20

[BruceVC]

6 hours ago, Deadly_Nightshade said:

Agreed, everyone thinks that are part of a protected class that will not be targeted by the tyranny of the majority or authoritarian minority until it happens (and, spoiler alert, they're all wrong):

"First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."

I  know you quoted this from somewhere else but there is a massive difference between your 4 points, which indeed should concern anyone if we experience it like the rise of the Nazis, and wanting to curtail the harmful and insidious influence of well meaning but deeply unsustainable socialist policies 

You can be opposed to socialism and unreasonable trade union demands but that doesnt mean you support some kind of right wing state 

In SA we have seen the harm unions and socialist policies can cause, we are addressing it but it takes times. Our Public sector wages bill consumes 30 % of our total taxes !!! Our entire public sector , caused by the unions , somehow negotiated a 3 year double inflation salary increase and they demand bonuses with no KPI ...and trust me parts of our  public sector are in an  abysmal state 

https://www.thesouthafrican.com/news/public-sector-wage-bill-south-africa/

Always remember the cardinal rules of all economic policies, " socialism leads to inequality, Capitalism leads to both inequality and growth " 

 

Edited October 13, 2020 by BruceVC

[ComradeYellow]

3 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

I  know you quoted this from somewhere else but there is a massive difference between your 4 points, which indeed should concern anyone if we experience it like the rise of the Nazis, and wanting to curtail the harmful and insidious influence of well meaning but deeply unsustainable socialist policies 

That quote is from the Holocaust Museum in D.C., and your rhetoric is laughably on par with baby boomer fiscal conservatives.  How old are you?

[BruceVC]

Just now, ComradeMaster said:

That quote is from the Holocaust Museum in D.C., and your rhetoric is laughably on par with baby boomer fiscal conservatives.  How old are you?

Im 46. What I posted is the reality of socialist policies on a countries economy, this is not rhetoric but irrefutable data. I understand you are uncomfortable with the reality of any  real success around so called " socialism " but that doesnt change its failures 

 

[BruceVC]

11 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

And you trust the government to exercise that power responsibly and evenhandedly? You trusted at some future point they won’t decide that everyone who wants something they don’t think they should have is inherently irrational and mentally dysfunctional? Or believes something they “know” is wrong is not a symptom of some mental defect?

Government is not made up of robots. It’s made up of people. People have passions prejudices and ambitions. And very few are able to subordinate them to some notion of the greater good.  Far from it. Usually they construe the greater good as to matching their passions, prejudices and ambitions.  Politicians most of all. The people who have political power are typically the exact ones you wish didn’t. The only way to protect yourself from them is by limiting what they can do. Taking an absolutist approach to that is certainly no vice in my opinion.

 

I was ruminating on what you said as I can understand the real risk  which basically is about potential "government overreach " in its objective of ostensibly making society better and more fair. This can have dire consequence for true economic and social growth and sustainability  on numerous levels so I share your concerns 

But we have to separate examples of good and reasonable government policy that will make our societies better from pernicious Government interference in things they need to stay away from 

So in the example of " who defines mental health and can it be abused " this is a good question but there is a valid answer. Mental health cannot be arbitrarily  assigned by any government. This measurement of human function can in almost all cases be decided and indubitably understood by people who have studied the human brain like psychologists and psychiatrists 

So in other words if society defines someone as " mentally unstable " this is based on science and the neurological understanding and ongoing research into one of the greatest mysteries in existence .." our brains and how they really work " 

But the point being in almost modern Democracies you can trust medical views that people are bi-polar because they have been accurately diagnosed. 

So its qualified people only, not governments, that decide this. At the moment I definitely trust the global system of understanding and treating mental illness 

[Gorth]

2 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Im 46. What I posted is the reality of socialist policies on a countries economy, this is not rhetoric but irrefutable data. I understand you are uncomfortable with the reality of any  real success around so called " socialism " but that doesnt change its failures 

 

How about doing a little research...

 

The quote is from Martin Niemöller, a German priest and diehard opponent of Hitler.

 

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/martin-niemoeller-first-they-came-for-the-socialists

 

Edit: And also, yeah, I remember that quote from history lessons way back in basic school (I would have been 12-13 at the time)

 

[Deadly_Nightshade]

2 hours ago, BruceVC said:

I  know you quoted this from somewhere else...

You should, it's one of the most famous works of short written verse to come out of WWII (it is by Martin Niemöller commonly known as 'First they came...').

Although the jump from 'people like to think they wont be a target of persecution until it happens and thus are willing to surrender the rights of others without realizing how the same could be done to them' to 'we can never oppose any socialist policies' was a bit drastic and uncalled for.   

[Skarpen]

@BruceVC Many people fascinated by communism/socialism claim that fighting against Hitler is somehow redeeming for those systems. They even give Stalin a pass because of this. Despite that Stalin and Soviet Union was an ally of Hitler up till '41.

[BruceVC]

2 minutes ago, Gorth said:

How about doing a little research...

 

The quote is from Martin Niemöller, a German priest and diehard opponent of Hitler.

 

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/martin-niemoeller-first-they-came-for-the-socialists

 

Edit: And also, yeah, I remember that quote from history lessons way back in basic school (I would have been 12-13 at the time)

 

Gorthfuscious !!! Stop being cheeky, you not too old for a good spanking. One of the real problems in our  modern societies is  the lack of respect young people have for older people who have extensive lived and institutional experience 

It is incumbent on people in a debate on a typical forum to post links to support there argument, I am not going to do your research for you because I have made my point and it still hasnt changed . But I am more than happy to read what you post around links, sometimes I may not have time and sometimes I miss an opportunity to respond but I generally try to respond and read links 

[Zoraptor]

3 hours ago, Skarpen said:

They even give Stalin a pass because of this. Despite that Stalin and Soviet Union was an ally of Hitler up till '41.

Most people are willing to give Finland a pass for being allies of Hitler, not without reason but still... Or, say, Poland a pass for invading Lithuania when they were fighting the soviets, or taking part in the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia; or Churchill a pass for starving millions of Indians. People are willing to give all sorts of things a pass- or be utterly shocked and appalled- not so much depending on the action itself but on who is doing it.

(People also tend to 'forget' that Stalin had tried for years to get an alliance with the western powers against Hitler prior to Molotov-Ribbentrop, and western plans specifically involved getting the Germans and Soviets to fight each other to a bloody stand still while they stayed out of it. Undoubtedly Molotov- Ribbentrop sucked for Poland, but for Stalin it was utter genius. Which he later ruined with the most stupid deployments and grossly gross incompetence leading up to Barbarossa, but that was later)

[Gorth]

4 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Gorthfuscious !!! Stop being cheeky, you not too old for a good spanking. One of the real problems in our  modern societies is  the lack of respect young people have for older people who have extensive lived and institutional experience 

Tell me about it. Young people these days...

 

On a more serious note:

"I  know you quoted this from somewhere else but there is a massive difference between your 4 points, which indeed should concern anyone if we experience it like the rise of the Nazis, and wanting to curtail the harmful and insidious influence of well meaning but deeply unsustainable socialist policies  "

That just rubbed me the wrong way, because I was familiar with the (original, German) version of the quote as well as its context. I think you were barking up the wrong tree, unapologetically at that.

As for socialism, your mileage may vary. I grew up in a hybrid system with strong trade unions. The unions eventually made themselves obsolete (today they nothing more than footnotes in politics) because they achieved their goals. Decent pay, maximum work hours, generally humane conditions. Danes may rant every now and then against the taxes, but you can still become wealthy and I don't think they feel particularly oppressed by the political system. Now if you ask them how they feel about banks on the other hand...

Edit: As for the quote... basically if you don't stand up for other peoples rights, don't expect them to stand up for yours.

[Raithe]

 

[Raithe]

And for one of those headlines to make you blink:  https://www.businessinsider.com/mexico-citizen-received-non-consensual-surgery-while-in-ice-detention-2020-10?r=US&IR=T

That's one of those "No, that's got to be wrong. That couldn't happen in America." reactions to seeing a new story on first thought.

 In an October 10 statement, Mexico's foreign ministry said a woman held by Immigration and Customs Enforcement at a facility in Georgia underwent surgery to which she did not consent and was medically neglected in its aftermath.

The woman was reportedly held at a facility where a whistleblower and several former detainees allege immigrants were regularly pressured into receiving unwanted and unnecessary medical operations at the hands of the facility's on-call gynecologist. At least one woman at the facility in Irwin, Georgia, said one of her Fallopian tubes was removed without her consent.

The Mexican government did not specif iy what surgery its citizen had received, but noted that it was not a hysterectomy.

Given the gravity of the charge, the government said it had "solicited the opinion of a medical specialist who, after an exhaustive review of the [medical] file, believed that there were irregularities or anomalies in the medical procedure."

Edited October 13, 2020 by Raithe

[Malcador]

2 hours ago, Raithe said:

That's one of those "No, that's got to be wrong. That couldn't happen in America." reactions to seeing a new story on first thought.

Why would you think that ?

[Raithe]

Okay, more of that "i know it could happen, but it seems ridiculous that that sort of organised, institutionalised, butchery could occur in modern day "free" world. "

I didn't think we were quite at the cyberpunk mega-corporate human-rights violations stage manner just yet.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Raithe

[Hurlshort]

2 minutes ago, Raithe said:

Okay, more of that "i know it could happen, but it seems ridiculous that that sort of organised, institutionalised, butchery could occur in modern day "free" world. "

I didn't think we were quite at the cyberpunk mega-corporate human-rights violations stage manner just yet.

To be fair, this sounds like one horrible doctor at work here, rather than institutional policies. But then again, ICE has shown to be tremendously inept. Given the frequency and seriousness of all the human rights violations they are getting hit with, it is hard to see them as anything less than criminally negligent.

[Skarpen]

4 hours ago, Raithe said:

The Mexican government did not specif iy what surgery its citizen had received

So basically we don't know anything but the story got published because clickbaits. Heh, "journalism" these days.

 

In other news in a rare political honesty moment, Joe Biden asks Americans to not vote for him.

 

[Guard Dog]

Cory Booker is a piece of s—t

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

https://newrepublic.com/article/159662/libertarian-walks-into-bear-book-review-free-town-project

Not sure if this belongs here or in funny stuff.

[Malcador]

58 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Cory Booker is a piece of s—t

What did he do ?

 

[Raithe]

Well, Anchorage. The story gets weirder as it goes... Or as someone tried explaining it:

[BruceVC]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/10/06/election-2020-fueled-democrats-early-voting-way-up/3623292001/

Some interesting and good news, early voting has seen unprecedented numbers in the USA 

It must be too early to predict who this benefits but it logically aligns to Biden votes as mostly Democrat supporters believe in this voting option?

The good news is it is an  example of US voting enthusiasm which is a positive in any Democracy ...voting apathy undermines Democratic societies 

 

Edited October 14, 2020 by BruceVC

[Guard Dog]

12 hours ago, Malcador said:

 

Edited October 14, 2020 by Guard Dog

[Raithe]

 

[Sarex]

On 10/13/2020 at 8:21 AM, Skarpen said:

@BruceVC Many people fascinated by communism/socialism claim that fighting against Hitler is somehow redeeming for those systems. They even give Stalin a pass because of this. Despite that Stalin and Soviet Union was an ally of Hitler up till '41.

Invasion of Poland was pretty much a land grab by the Soviet Union in preparation for the war they knew was coming. They wanted to have as much of a buffer zone as they could against the Germans.

[HoonDing]

We should trade Poland to Putin for free vaccines