3rd person?

[Quillon]

Wonder if there'll be race choice if the game will be exclusively in FP; with position of camera being too low for orlan/dwarf and maybe too high for aumaua. Especially melee combat could be weird with a small player character

 

[Wormerine]

1 minute ago, Quillon said:

Wonder if there'll be race choice if the game will be exclusively in FP; with position of camera being too low for orlan/dwarf and maybe too high for aumaua. Especially melee combat could be weird with a small player character

I have been wondering about it to. Theoretically, it could be really cool (maybe enable new sneaking options for orlans and dwarfs, give aumaua a chance to overpower enemy etc), but also very janky if they would do that at all. Also, if we are tied to Aedyr or Woedica, we might be limited to races that would make sense (like human or elf).

[kanisatha]

1 hour ago, Wormerine said:

I have been wondering about it to. Theoretically, it could be really cool (maybe enable new sneaking options for orlans and dwarfs, give aumaua a chance to overpower enemy etc), but also very janky if they would do that at all. Also, if we are tied to Aedyr or Woedica, we might be limited to races that would make sense (like human or elf).

I still don't get at all how melee combat can possibly work well in FP anyway. My experience with Skyrim was constantly missing my opponent while constantly getting hit myself, and yet also constantly hitting my own allies next to me including when I couldn't even see them.

[Adridactelo]

Doing different races in first person is extremely tricky. It's not just the height difference, they must adapt all the character animations (orlan's attacks cannot be the same as aumaua's), enemies animation, character models and equipment (aumaua have semi-webbed hands, so they should make different gauntlet models for them) the different interactions with the game-world...

That's a lot of work and bugs.
 

16 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

I still don't get at all how melee combat can possibly work well in FP anyway. My experience with Skyrim was constantly missing my opponent while constantly getting hit myself, and yet also constantly hitting my own allies next to me including when I couldn't even see them.

Skyrim's combat was questionable even on 2012. There are games that have recreated the FP melee combat quite well (Mordhau, Kingdom Come: Deliverance or Vermintide). Techland's Hellraid (the game, not the DLC) looked very promising in that regard IMO:

 

 

[ovelteen]

My experience with first person combat is that it is only useful when using a bow or crossbow.  Because the field of view is so narrow and the sense of depth is wrong it is difficult for me to melee opponents in first person. Give me a bow and a good stealth score and I.m all good. I would have a very hard time enjoying this game if I can't effectively fight with a melee weapon. This means I would need a robust third person view to play this kind of game.

[Wormerine]

50 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

I still don't get at all how melee combat can possibly work well in FP anyway.

I defenitely favour 3rd person for melee combat. Not that aiming is a problem, but space awareness. FPS is good at pointing at things (therefore shootign and casting), and I don't remember hitting things being difficult in Skyrim (that combat is bad in the first place though), but when enemy is in your face lack of peripheral vision is problematic I think. 

A FPCombat game I enjoyed a lot was Arcane's Messiah of Might and Magic - it was quite satisfying regardless of FP perspective. Dishonored melee combat is satisfying as well, though it's not a game that focuses on that. So I guess Arcane knows how to do melee combat. And people seemed to like Chivarly FP combat quite a lot.
Still, I am surprised that for one camera medieval combat game, Obsidian went for FP. Unless, they just don't want to be compared to Dark Souls, which I think would be a quality expectation if they went for Third person only action RPG. 

Edited August 4, 2020 by Wormerine

[Ormag]

2 hours ago, ovelteen said:

My experience with first person combat is that it is only useful when using a bow or crossbow.  Because the field of view is so narrow and the sense of depth is wrong it is difficult for me to melee opponents in first person. Give me a bow and a good stealth score and I.m all good. I would have a very hard time enjoying this game if I can't effectively fight with a melee weapon. This means I would need a robust third person view to play this kind of game.

FOV slider, or worst case edit the .ini?

[kanisatha]

Yes It's the lack of full peripheral vision and also lack of depth perception at close range that's a big part of the problem. Plus, like many of you have noted, using a weapon for which some form of targeting mechanism is provided (bows, crossbows, guns, energy weapons) also works okay, as does spellcasting. But trying to *target* an opponent with a sword up close and personal just ends up being very frustrating for me (and noting that I only play with mouse and keyboard). I just feel like I'm flailing about without any control, just mashing the "hit" button on my keyboard and hoping something hits.

[morhilane]

4 hours ago, kanisatha said:

I still don't get at all how melee combat can possibly work well in FP anyway. My experience with Skyrim was constantly missing my opponent while constantly getting hit myself, and yet also constantly hitting my own allies next to me including when I couldn't even see them.

It was super easy to hit enemies and not get hit while in 1st melee in Skyrim, the enemies were too slow to manage you running backward/forward while in combat. And unless you were rushing past enemies or alerting everyone in a camp after entering it, it's wasn't hard to keep enemies at the front. It's not like the corridors in structures were large enough to allow flanking anyhow and most camp force enemies to go through a specific entrance which makes them easy to funnel too.

Now hitting allies, that one I understand. Most are idiots that love to stand in-between the enemies and you.

Edited August 4, 2020 by morhilane

[kanisatha]

40 minutes ago, morhilane said:

the enemies were too slow to manage you running backward/forward while in combat

Well, for me, if you have to keep running forward and backward again and again as the way to handle melee combat, that is horrible game design.

[morhilane]

45 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

Well, for me, if you have to keep running forward and backward again and again as the way to handle melee combat, that is horrible game design.

and yet that's no different than dodging all the time in 3rd person...

Blocking with a shield is efficient in Skyrim too. Especially in first person as it's easier to block incoming projectiles, including dragon fire, under that perspective.

Edited August 4, 2020 by morhilane

[Zafar1981]

I believe Avowed is 1st/3rd person game like Grounded. As initially grounded was showed as 1st person on XO19 trailer and later it has the option of playing it also as 3rd person.

The only reason it will only be a 1st person if 3rd person gameplay affects the game design which at the moment it doesn't looks a main reason 

[FoxFace]

I'm personally hoping for a 3rd person option because many first person view games give me severe motion sickness due to FOV and peripheral limitations.  It has made games unplayable after short periods of time in the past, which is unfortunate as the games themselves were wonderful and I was having a good time right up until I felt like I needed a waste basket.   

[Ormag]

On 8/5/2020 at 1:21 AM, kanisatha said:

Well, for me, if you have to keep running forward and backward again and again as the way to handle melee combat, that is horrible game design.

Footwork >>> rolling

[kanisatha]

I have a very good feeling we will see TP included as a default option in this game. I think some of you guys are way overstating the prospects of this game being exclusively FP.

When TOW was announced as only FP and a bunch of people griped about it on that forum, Obsidian devs themselves posted to say they were limited to only using FP because of their budget (pre-MS), implying that if not for budget restrictions they would've included the TP option. Now, Grounded has TP option built into the game as default, which says to me that even on a small project like Grounded Obsidian is willing to spend money on adding in a feature that will prove inclusive to a lot of fans. So if they are willing and able to include a TP mode in Grounded, I just don't see any valid reason or buy any argument for why they would not also do so in Avowed.

[Wormerine]

1 hour ago, kanisatha said:

Now, Grounded has TP option built into the game as default, which says to me that even on a small project like Grounded Obsidian is willing to spend money on adding in a feature that will prove inclusive to a lot of fans. So if they are willing and able to include a TP mode in Grounded, I just don't see any valid reason or buy any argument for why they would not also do so in Avowed.

First of all: even though I will argue against, I don't necessary disagree with you. I find it difficult to believe that with MS money and making Skyrim-like game, and having a choice between Both FP&TP, or just FP or TP Obsidian would choose just FP. 

Now as to Grounded - as far as I have seen the combat in that game is not particularly interesting. It's neither good first person combat, nor third person combat - just swinging a thing in your hand until an enemy dies. Whenever camera is FP and TP or top down - it doesn't really matter, because mechanics aren't complex. It is also possible that making both modes for Grounded is more feasable exactly because it is a smaller project - and one needs to make both work with a much smaller amount of content and systems.

Now, if Obsidian wanted to make something more deliberate - choosing one perspective would make sense. Dedicated Firstperson and Third person games are designed and work differently. And between melee, ranged, spells and who-knows-what Avowed might have much more plates to spin then Grounded. That's more of a wishful thinking on my part rather then a belief, though. tOW was FP and I don't think its combat did anything that wouldn't be possible to do in TP. 

Edited August 7, 2020 by Wormerine

[Wormerine]

double post. "Quote" instead of "edit". 

Edited August 7, 2020 by Wormerine

[Theonlygarby]

I hope it's 2nd person camera

[Ormag]

Edit: Oops

Edited August 12, 2020 by Ormag

[thelee]

On 8/5/2020 at 3:50 PM, Zafar1981 said:

I believe Avowed is 1st/3rd person game like Grounded. As initially grounded was showed as 1st person on XO19 trailer and later it has the option of playing it also as 3rd person.

it is extremely relevant to point out that Grounded is a co-op/multiplayer game primarily focused on survival/building, which means you need to have the third-person character animations and assets perfected anyway and switching between the two cameras doesn't have as much of an impact on game mechanics. Having a third person camera then seems minimal work. 

A single-player game is different, especially where combat is super important. Playing FO3/NV/Skyrim/FO4 in third person is obviously worse and clunkier than single-player. (Similarly, if you take a good third-person game, you can't just put the camera inside their head and expect it to work.)

 

Edited August 8, 2020 by thelee

[keriana]

On 8/8/2020 at 5:23 PM, thelee said:

it is extremely relevant to point out that Grounded is a co-op/multiplayer game primarily focused on survival/building, which means you need to have the third-person character animations and assets perfected anyway and switching between the two cameras doesn't have as much of an impact on game mechanics. Having a third person camera then seems minimal work. 

A single-player game is different, especially where combat is super important. Playing FO3/NV/Skyrim/FO4 in third person is obviously worse and clunkier than single-player. (Similarly, if you take a good third-person game, you can't just put the camera inside their head and expect it to work.)

 

Have they said yet if Avowed will have multiplayer or not? I much prefer having just single player. However, many of the large companies are obsessed with multiplayer, so it wouldn't surprise me if it had co-op.

Edited August 15, 2020 by keriana

[ovelteen]

Co-op would be cool, but could cause issues with player quests. 

[Theonlygarby]

I get the feeling we won't be able to be an orlan.  Same with dwarf.  Would be weird attacking some Aumaua shins.  I just hope they dont force you to be a godlike.

[Undecaf]

On 8/6/2020 at 3:28 PM, Ormag said:

Footwork >>> rolling

Indeed. Combat rolling is a cancer of the combat design these days.

[daven]

On 7/24/2020 at 1:08 AM, Theonlygarby said:

Doubt it.  I want to be able to see my feet in first person.... Which I also doubt.

 

Curious, why won't you play first person games?

Nausea