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1 hour ago, Rageproc said:

3rd person kills immersion & becomes the meta if its available, look at ESO love doing everything in 1st person on ESO but it cant compete in combat vs 3rd person so you lose immersion to gain more situational awareness, no 3rd person = immersion & no forced 3rd person metas

I'm not up to date on the current Skyrim meta but I enjoyed playing in 1st person and looking at my character in 3rd person sometimes while traveling to look at my armour and char, so I'd prefer both but hey I'm not all there in the meta as I said.

 

you are aware that this won't be an MMO right? :)

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8 minutes ago, keriana said:

From what I've seen so far I didn't get the idea that Avowed would be an MMO. There's not much info out yet, though.

Also, for me there is no immersion in 1st person, so that depends on the person.

Exactly. Saying "first person = immersion" is entirely subjective. For me it is the exact opposite. Third person is what gives me immersion, whereas first person kills it. I need to be able to see myself (i.e. my PC) in the game world to feel like I'm there myself. Playing TW3 in third person is what made it possible for me to feel like I was Geralt. By contrast, seeing my hand weirdly and awkwardly sticking out from the bottom of my display is about as fake and artificial as anything can be.

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I understand why people like 3rd person, but saying it makes you feel like you are "really there" doesn't make a lot of sense. 

First person is more immersive in the sense that you are seeing what your character sees.  Not knowing what is behind you is a reality...  Kingdom come is the best example of this...  If you get jumped it's super frustrating getting attacked from all angles and not knowing what to do, your vision being thrown all over.  That is very realistic... Even professional fighters would have a very hard time fighting 4 untrained people.

 

3rd person is more like watching a movie.  1st is more like you are actually the character.  Again I get why people prefer 3rd...  Just wouldn't say it's more immersive... At least in the sense of feeling like you are the character

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5 minutes ago, Theonlygarby said:

I understand why people like 3rd person, but saying it makes you feel like you are "really there" doesn't make a lot of sense. 

First person is more immersive in the sense that you are seeing what your character sees.  Not knowing what is behind you is a reality...  Kingdom come is the best example of this...  If you get jumped it's super frustrating getting attacked from all angles and not knowing what to do, your vision being thrown all over.  That is very realistic... Even professional fighters would have a very hard time fighting 4 untrained people.

 

3rd person is more like watching a movie.  1st is more like you are actually the character.  Again I get why people prefer 3rd...  Just wouldn't say it's more immersive... At least in the sense of feeling like you are the character

Different people experience things differently. 1st person might be immersive to you, but to me it is not immersive at all. 

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19 minutes ago, keriana said:

Different people experience things differently. 1st person might be immersive to you, but to me it is not immersive at all. 

Fair enough... I could see being more immersed in the world.  But not more immersed in the character.  Like you said though everyone's different.

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1 hour ago, Theonlygarby said:

Fair enough... I could see being more immersed in the world.  But not more immersed in the character.  Like you said though everyone's different.

Again, it depends on the person. My immersion is based on being able to see my character in all of their personal details including what they're wearing and carrying, and not what they see "through their eyes." And my feeling of being there when in third person is just as valid and real as yours in first person.

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1 hour ago, Ormag said:

They can't please EVERYONE unfortunately

Indeed, at the end of the day a game has to go in a direction.

I for one miss animated hud face like id Software used to make. Heck animated portrait of any sort would be nice, also screen borders, Quake-style comand console, and a ui like Morrowind. There are so many things I miss in modern video games. Would also be nice if more games had Dark Sun's mouse driven control and KotC's hyperlink in-game documentation.

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Some games, including Skyrim, which Avowed is being compared to, have the option of using either 1st or 3rd person.  Grounded, Obsidian's most recent game, has that option as well. Obsidian may or may not include this feature in Avowed. However, it is a possible direction they could decide to go in.

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10 hours ago, keriana said:

Some games, including Skyrim, which Avowed is being compared to, have the option of using either 1st or 3rd person.  Grounded, Obsidian's most recent game, has that option as well. Obsidian may or may not include this feature in Avowed. However, it is a possible direction they could decide to go in.

There seems to be an industry-wide shift away from 3rd person. Not sure why that is.

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"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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17 hours ago, Ormag said:

They can't please EVERYONE unfortunately

Sure they can.  It's called being able to scroll back to over the shoulder view.

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6 hours ago, Achilles said:

There seems to be an industry-wide shift away from 3rd person. Not sure why that is.

There are a fair number of upcoming AAA 3rd person games if you include action games/action rpgs as well: Dragon Age 4, Horizon Forbidden West, Final Fantasy 7 Remake,  Project Athia, Assassin's Creed, just to name a few. It also seems likely Fable would be 3rd person (because the previous games were), but I guess we will see. I am assuming Bethesda will continue having both 1st and 3rd person in upcoming games.

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I like 1st person only.  Keeps the mystique alive.  What bothers me is wasting time and money on character customization when there doesn't need to be one.  

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'He who seeks to defend everything, defends nothing."

King Frederick the Great of Prussia

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30 minutes ago, ComradeMaster said:

What bothers me is wasting time and money on character customization when there doesn't need to be one.

This can be said of so many things in games. What is a "waste" to you is precious to others.

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5 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

This can be said of so many things in games. What is a "waste" to you is precious to others.

"Precious character customization"

Precious GIF - LOTR LordOfTheRings Smeegle GIFs

I like how Obsi usually focuses more on solid mechanics and charm and would like to keep it that way.

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'He who seeks to defend everything, defends nothing."

King Frederick the Great of Prussia

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19 hours ago, keriana said:

Some games, including Skyrim, which Avowed is being compared to, have the option of using either 1st or 3rd person.  Grounded, Obsidian's most recent game, has that option as well. Obsidian may or may not include this feature in Avowed. However, it is a possible direction they could decide to go in.

Yeah, but in Skyrim (and Bethesda Fallouts) third person is worse for a lot of stuff than first person. While I would honestly be surprised if third person wasn't an option in Avowed, the game is going to be designed around first person and we will be seeing the effects of that on the gameplay,

"I am the expert, asshat." - Hurlshot

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51 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

Yeah, but in Skyrim (and Bethesda Fallouts) third person is worse for a lot of stuff than first person. While I would honestly be surprised if third person wasn't an option in Avowed, the game is going to be designed around first person and we will be seeing the effects of that on the gameplay,

That would work for me. I played both Skyrim and Fallout in 3rd person.

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12 hours ago, keriana said:

That would work for me. I played both Skyrim and Fallout in 3rd person.

Yup, I also played Skyrim exclusively in third person, and did not have any issues, problems or concerns with it. I felt no need ever to even try first person. I had big issues with other aspects of that game, but the third person perspective was never an issue in any way.

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14 hours ago, ComradeMaster said:

I like how Obsi usually focuses more on solid mechanics and charm and would like to keep it that way.

Oh sure. So Obsidian must cater to the things that are precious to you, just not things that matter to other people.

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14 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

Oh sure. So Obsidian must cater to the things that are precious to you, just not things that matter to other people.

Obsidian *should* cater to the things that their brand is built on so that people who follow that brand continue to believe in it.

Trying to be "all things to all people" gives us games that no one really likes from studios that no one really respects

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"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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15 minutes ago, Achilles said:

Obsidian *should* cater to the things that their brand is built on so that people who follow that brand continue to believe in it.

Trying to be "all things to all people" gives us games that no one really likes from studios that no one really respects

But who decides what those things are? I've been playing Obsidian games since the studio was founded, and I consider such things as character customization to be a part of their "brand." I'm just pointing out that some people are very subjectively trying to lay claim to that "brand" based purely on what they want. I don't see anything from Obsidian itself claiming that is their "brand."

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10 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

But who decides what those things are? I've been playing Obsidian games since the studio was founded, and I consider such things as character customization to be a part of their "brand." I'm just pointing out that some people are very subjectively trying to lay claim to that "brand" based purely on what they want. I don't see anything from Obsidian itself claiming that is their "brand."

They've told us what their brand is ("We make story-driven RPGs"). The danger comes from doing what you describe above; subjectively laying claim to other things we want to lump in with that. You would consider character customization as part of that brand, but 1) they've never stated that this is something they emphasize and 2) I can list numerous examples of Obsidian games that I've enjoyed that had little to no character customization. In fact, I can only think of a couple of Obsidian games where deep character customization was even an option.

I'm not trying to attack you personally or say that you shouldn't care about the things that you care about or even that you shouldn't be disappointed if the things that you care about are not given more prominence in this game. I am asking that if you're expecting emphasis  on character customization from a game studio that hasn't traditionally put a lot of time or effort into that, where is that expectation coming from?

"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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18 minutes ago, Achilles said:

They've told us what their brand is ("We make story-driven RPGs"). The danger comes from doing what you describe above; subjectively laying claim to other things we want to lump in with that. You would consider character customization as part of that brand, but 1) they've never stated that this is something they emphasize and 2) I can list numerous examples of Obsidian games that I've enjoyed that had little to no character customization. In fact, I can only think of a couple of Obsidian games where deep character customization was even an option.

I'm not trying to attack you personally or say that you shouldn't care about the things that you care about or even that you shouldn't be disappointed if the things that you care about are not given more prominence in this game. I am asking that if you're expecting emphasis  on character customization from a game studio that hasn't traditionally put a lot of time or effort into that, where is that expectation coming from?

Sure. But again you are missing my point. I was not saying character customization *is* Obsidian's brand. I was offering my own subjective example of something I value to highlight that my subjective thing is no different than someone else's subjective thing. The things some other people are claiming *should* be in the game are all subjective personal preferences too. When did Obsidian say first person is part of their brand? Or "solid mechanics"? Or "charm"? These are all subjective wants, and one subjective want is no better than any other.

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2 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

Sure. But again you are missing my point. I was not saying character customization *is* Obsidian's brand. I was offering my own subjective example of something I value to highlight that my subjective thing is no different than someone else's subjective thing. The things some other people are claiming *should* be in the game are all subjective personal preferences too. When did Obsidian say first person is part of their brand? Or "solid mechanics"? Or "charm"? These are all subjective wants, and one subjective want is no better than any other.

Great post. Thanks for clarifying.

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"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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