Politics XXXIV (Politics never changes)

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, ComradeMaster said:

I will be sitting out from further elections until a strong 3rd party candidate shows up.  I may vote Lisa Savage for Senator but that's about it.  Will never vote D or R nationally ever again.

I can understand your frustration but its not that bad, remember Trump won in 2016 due to a series of events and misunderstood and ignored frustration of some Americans

But why dont you support Biden, I think I will.....Im not completely excited but  I am sure I will feel later 

 

[ComradeYellow]

1 minute ago, BruceVC said:

I can understand your frustration but its not that bad, remember Trump won in 2016 due to a series of events and misunderstood and ignored frustration of some Americans

But why dont you support Biden, I think I will.....Im not completely excited but  I am sure I will feel later 

 

And yet he turned into a typical Republican once he got in there, campaign promises don't mean anything when both parties are controlled by the military industrial complex and government agencies and corporations and banks Oh My.

I don't support Biden for same reasons I don't support Trump:  Forever wars and unhinged capitalism and imperialism and greed.

[Guard Dog]

4 minutes ago, ComradeMaster said:

And yet he turned into a typical Republican once he got in there, campaign promises don't mean anything when both parties are controlled by the military industrial complex and government agencies and corporations and banks Oh My.

I don't support Biden for same reasons I don't support Trump:  Forever wars and unhinged capitalism and imperialism and greed.

Typical Republican... not sure I'd say that. But what the hell IS a Republican these days? They used to be the party of fiscal responsibility and limited government. They are neither of those anymore. 

Biden will likely be an improvement over Trump. We are getting incompetence either way. At least with Biden we might do without self aggrandizing and willful lawbreaking. That would be an improvement. As long as no SCOTUS openings come up. I'd rather Biden were not the one to fill them. Unless it's Ginsburg. That would be OK if he picks her replacement. 

But, like you, if he gets there he's doing it without my vote. Not in my name.

 

[ComradeYellow]

5 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Typical Republican... not sure I'd say that. But what the hell IS a Republican these days? They used to be the party of fiscal responsibility and limited government. They are neither of those anymore. 

From my understanding the Red Party was always the party of Wall Street and Big Money, even since Lincoln's day.  It was only until the 70'-80's or so when they started adopting "Limited Government and fiscal responsibility" line but it always seemed to be illusory at best because I can't think of any Republican president who actually managed effectively enact such policies, just paid lip service to it.

[Guard Dog]

4 minutes ago, ComradeMaster said:

From my understanding the Red Party was always the party of Wall Street and Big Money, even since Lincoln's day.  It was only until the 70'-80's or so when they started adopting "Limited Government and fiscal responsibility" line but it always seemed to be illusory at best because I can't think of any Republican president who actually managed effectively enact such policies, just paid lip service to it.

Oh that is not true at all. The GOP has, with some exceptions, been the "small government" party pretty much throughout the 20th century. At least on some things. Not entirely consistent, but mostly. 

[ComradeYellow]

1 minute ago, Guard Dog said:

Oh that is not true at all. The GOP has, with some exceptions, been the "small government" party pretty much throughout the 20th century. At least on some things. Not entirely consistent, but mostly. 

Upon further study, it looks like the seeds of "small government Republicanism" really took root in the 1964 Republican primary when Barry Goldwater was chosen as the nominee in a contested convention.

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/johnson-defeats-goldwater-for-presidency

A tactical pummel but a strategic victory as similar reactionary policies have taken root in American political life ever since, Trump appears to be the lasp gasp of that, at least as far as rhetoric goes.

[Guard Dog]

5 minutes ago, ComradeMaster said:

Upon further study, it looks like the seeds of "small government Republicanism" really took root in the 1964 Republican primary when Barry Goldwater was chosen as the nominee in a contested convention.

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/johnson-defeats-goldwater-for-presidency

A tactical pummel but a strategic victory as similar reactionary policies have taken root in American political life ever since, Trump appears to be the lasp gasp of that, at least as far as rhetoric goes.

Sorry but no. Roosevelt (the first one) was the last of the "progressive" Republicans. Taft, Harding, Coolidge, and Hoover were all "hands off" type leaders. The GOP was much more laid back before 1932 than it had been previously with respect to the role of government. WW2 changed that somewhat with Eisenhower and Nixon being much more activist. Ford and Reagan were a bit of a throwback. 

[Skarpen]

2 hours ago, ComradeMaster said:

You can't vote unless you're a citizen of the U.S.

That cracked me up

[ComradeYellow]

12 minutes ago, Skarpen said:

That cracked me up

Why?

[HoonDing]

3,000,000 Russians voted for Trump

[Elerond]

that sound quite familiar strategy 

[Gfted1]

[Guard Dog]

Meanwhile: https://www.usdebtclock.org/

[Gromnir]

29 minutes ago, Elerond said:

that sound quite familiar strategy 

'course you mean it sounds similar to the chinese/hong kong response?

we see emoticon, but we hope this ain't a crude attempt to compare to yang's $1000 per month. a stimulus check is not at all similar ubi. obama did stimulus. stimulus is not new. yang's ubi is not similar save amount o' the check... but 1/12th.

now alaska has something similar to ubi, and that ain't changing fact they is gonna get additional stimulus.

@Guard Dog

y'know, if any other republican frontrunner from 2016 had been elected instead o' trump, he/she would be able to use this crisis to validate the inevitable downsizing and belt tightening which woulda' occurred during the past three years. for decades, republicans, pre trump, has been kinda united in efforts to reduce fed spending. a guy such as jeb bush or even ted cruz would be able to point to efforts to reduce debt as being perspicacious given the need to raise huge amounts o' money during a time o' genuine crisis. 

if republicans had showed a bit o' backbone and resisted trump worst urges regarding debt, we coulda' been in a much better position to absorb a new crisis. unfortunate we got obama debt plus trump debt and now are gonna add necessary coronavirus debt all in a relative short space o' time.

is a bill which needs be paid by somebody, and somebody is you and Gromnir and other americans, regardless o' party affiliation. 

HA! Good Fun!

[ComradeYellow]

I honestly think people overblow the national debt issue.  Not saying it isn't alarming, it is, but I don't think that in itself is the powder keg.

[Hurlshort]

The stimulus would work out to exactly what I still owe in Federal taxes this year, so yay. 

[Gromnir]

our complaints 'bout obama stimulus is old and well trod. is not that we were 'gainst government spending during a time o' most recent major recession, but rather that the money were so poorly spent. coulda' boosted economy much more effective with infrastructure investment... but again, is an old argument and not worth revisiting yet again.

am recognizing how doomed is handing $1000 to millennials and others, but we do not know o' a better solution at this time. the thing is, with social distancing being so important, is not as if grand new infrastructure programs is gonna be possible. likewise, is worst possible time to be developing and implementing government programs to help educate people on a bit o' fiscal responsibility. social security offices recently closed, w/o warning, and they just ain't equipped to telework on any scale. am suspecting most government agencies is similar under prepared. is gonna be less chance for govt to interact with people so cannot plan programs which require more communication.

many secondary issues. am suspecting $1000 wouldn't even come close to getting many Americans flush. for the multitudes who is 'bout to lose their jobs, too many who are not full-time employees and as such won't be getting unemployment, $1000 is a laughable 'mount. all those fraudulent unemployment numbers is gonna become much more transparent in the near future. and for millenials, stimulus is an opportunity to upgrade their game console or purchase a better tv.

etc.

but again, as much as am dubious 'bout efficacy o' stimulus such as envisioned, given the situation we don't have a better idea for getting money direct to those who need something to get through the next month(s). sucks. no other way to frame it. sucks when a terrible idea might nevertheless be the best idea.

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Edited March 17, 2020 by Gromnir

[Elerond]

44 minutes ago, ComradeMaster said:

I honestly think people overblow the national debt issue.  Not saying it isn't alarming, it is, but I don't think that in itself is the powder keg.

I have lived through time when my country's economy crashed because of our national debt and people's individual debts rise too high and our government had to nuclear options to give any hope for recovery.  I can say that those weren't fun times. In comparison 2000s global economic crises were minor inconveniences. 

[ComradeYellow]

Ok let's cut all government spending and let the free market dictate everything.  What's the point of government, anyway?  All you need is entrepreneurs with firm handshakes and everything will fall into proper cohesion.

[Gorth]

2 minutes ago, ComradeMaster said:

 All you need is entrepreneurs with firm handshakes

Remember to use hand sanitizer...

 

Besides, a completely unregulated market economy will invariably gravitate towards monopolies. After which you'll get infinitely low quality at infinitely high prices.

 

[ComradeYellow]

8 minutes ago, Gorth said:

 

 

Besides, a completely unregulated market economy will invariably gravitate towards monopolies. After which you'll get infinitely low quality at infinitely high prices.

 

Yes I know that, just me being sarcastic

You need state enterprises and private enterprises.  The best economies are 1/3 state owned and 2/3 private owned.  The state sector should serve as the ultimate safety net for the poor and impoverished to gain employment and benefits (proper medical, housing, etc.) whilst the private sector is there for everyone who considers themselves too good for that.

The Green Party is the only Party here that offers "Green Jobs" for those who want one, but we have literally no power in the U.S., so...

Edited March 17, 2020 by ComradeMaster

[Elerond]

6 hours ago, ComradeMaster said:

Ok let's cut all government spending and let the free market dictate everything.  What's the point of government, anyway?  All you need is entrepreneurs with firm handshakes and everything will fall into proper cohesion.

Yeah governments don't have any other means to collect money than borrowing money until economy crashes 

[Gromnir]

in the most bass akwards and krazy twist, am confronting reality that best case scenario results in trump being re-elected.

we don't want another four years o' trump. is hard to imagine a worse President. no remaining viable candidate could be worse than trump. however...

at the moment a majority o' republicans, based on recent polling, are not worried 'bout covid-19. such will not be the case if we get a trajectory similar to italy insofar as infections and deaths is concerned. only takes a few % point loss o' the otherwise ironclad obtuse base to doom a trump reelection. deaths in large numbers and/or months o' quasi-lockdown following the market nightmares is gonna eventual take its toll, even if toll is only a few points.

am not wanting italy situation.

vaccine is, at best, 'bout a year away, which means if even after a summer respite, the virus will likely be back in september/october and will be in full swing by november.  

the uk study we linked earlier with +1 million deaths were not worst case scenario. we checked and +2 million were worst case scenario. best case scenario requires an almost complete lock down o' everything for the next year. not next two weeks or months. to prevent an explosion o' cases until a viable vaccine is developed and has widespread distribution, study suggests best case requires near total lockdown for a year. year... earliest.

but...

quasi-miracle happens and spring followed by an early summer arrives this year and covid-19 proves just as weak to heat and humidity as is flu.

vaccine gets sooper fast development, production and dissemination beyond any expectations.

prayer ends up working.

etc.

so, we all get very lucky and covid-19 patients do not overwhelm medical facilities for months with patients dying in hospital hallways as they is triaged with brutal but necessary efficiency. such a best case eventuality is the one for which we should all hope. anybody doubt such a result convinces republicans and independents that trump were right (or right enough) all along and they vote him in for another four years in november? 

am not hoping for a continued trump Presidency. nevertheless, am genuine praying we get a situation which makes another four year o' trump inevitable.

#$%&

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Bartimaeus]

There have been a number of cases of incompetent leaders (both big and small) throughout history where, upon suddenly being faced with an honest-to-God crisis, that leader(s) had a coming-to-Jesus moment where they actually started taking things seriously and at least started to attempt to do what was right and best for those who they were responsible for. I feel supremely confident that Trump is not one of those people, but I am happy to be proven wrong, and if that's the case, he'll get deserved praise by the end of this.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Coming-to-Jesus moments are rare, even moreso for folks who benefit from not doing so like leaders. I think that when the covid-19 panic mellows, regardless of the number of corpses it produces, people will largely go back to where they were before as if it had never happened. To be crass, I think the biggest political impact of Covid-19 would be if it killed off a significant number of old folks(who have a higher mortality rate compared to general population) because they tend vote a certain way.