The Ultimate discussion thread Pt 2

[Raven Darkholme]

12 minutes ago, thelee said:

this is sort of my fault. there was inconsistent targeting between the base white wurms, and the upgrade. the base worked like it does now, and the upgrade worked like in poe1 (making it an amazing upgrade). i raised the inconsistent targeting, and they "fixed the glitch" and removed the poe1-style targeting from the upgrade. sorry about the nerf

on the flip side, like @Boeroer said, they compensate for it by making the base damage and aoe much, much larger than in poe1.

That's a shame.

The bigger Aoe is sadly pretty useless solo and there is no reason not to use upgraded lightning invocation 90% of the time since it is insanely good, does more damage and doesn't require a corpse and when the rare cases arise where you wanna do non lightning damage, chances are you have Seven Nights already which while being more expensive in phrases is just so much better overall, especially with the upgrade (one could even intentionally avoid lighning immunes till then but since there is also summons AND autoattacks....).

Tbf the Aoe is pretty amazing if one plays with a party and for a low phrases invocation the damage is quite ok.

[thelee]

4 hours ago, Raven Darkholme said:

Not sure if it really missed I used it twice and there was just no reaction on screen OR in the combat log

just to add, the confusing part about the initial roll-to-hit-an-inanimate-corpse doesn't show up anywhere in the combat log, it's completely invisible. with expert mode off (obviously not a choice in the ultimate challenge), you do actually see the to-graze/hit odds when hovering over a corpse, which is extremely helpful (because sometimes one corpse will be a better choice than another simply because of their defenses... again, don't ask me how an inanimate corpse can dodge a spell)

[Boeroer]

Soul spams!

[Boeroer]

1 hour ago, Silvaren said:

@Boeroer Was it retaliation barb?

Indeed. Max MIG, CON, PER and INT Fire Godlike with Veteran's Recovery, Shod-in-Faith, Fulvano's Amulet and 12 survival for the healing bonus and all that. A Ring of Focused Flames + Vulnerable Attack + getting bloodied. Cast Combusting Wounds on the guys. Once Blooded kicked in: Heart of Fury. Remainder got killed by Battle Forged + Blood Thirst. It worked ok but I had to drink quite a lot of Infuse wVE potions.  What killed me at lvl 16 in some unimportant fight in Noonfrost was a bug with Battle Forged + Second Wind (Athletics): if you use Second Wind while Battle Forged is active you will hit yourself with the fire retaliation. I was low on endurance and forgot about it - and Battle Forged dmg is preeetty high at lvl 16...

[Silvaren]

On 12/5/2019 at 6:21 PM, Boeroer said:

Battle Forged + Second Wind (Athletics): if you use Second Wind while Battle Forged is active you will hit yourself with the fire retaliation.

I didnn't even know about this bug. I had solo PotD run with fire godlike monk but I invest mostly in survival skilland didn't bother with Second Wind. I guess it saved my skin  

[Matroska]

Is Rapid Casting worth it in turn-based? What''s the exact thing it'd do to, say, a spell with a cast time of 5? Not sure about the maths, let alone if it's worth taking that passive.

[Raven Darkholme]

28 minutes ago, Matroska said:

Is Rapid Casting worth it in turn-based? What''s the exact thing it'd do to, say, a spell with a cast time of 5? Not sure about the maths, let alone if it's worth taking that passive.

Fewer enemies get an attempt at interrupting you, but interrupts can be quite vicious in TB solo so rapid casting is probably not the way to avoid them.

[Wotcha]

The cheesy way to avoid getting interrupted in TB mode is to exploit a glitch.  Disable auto-ending of turn.  Do something with a cast time.  Move your cursor over the "end turn" button but don't click it! Then move your cursor away.  For whatever buggy reason, this resets your action to complete instantly.  You can then end your turn and have your thing go off instantly.  It's cheesy as hell but works right out of the box.  A lot of people never ever even notice this because they never disable auto-end of turn.

[draego]

DIdnt know where to post congrats but congrats @thelee i assume this is you. 

 

[Wotcha]

4 out of 4 so far are Skaen priests.  I guess when the entire world is dedicated to making your life as miserable as possible, worshipping Skaen is the only logical choice.

I wonder what happened to the guy who was trying to do chanter/ranger.  That was the only non-Priest build I'd heard of that seemed like it had any chance of working at all.

[thelee]

2 hours ago, Wotcha said:

4 out of 4 so far are Skaen priests.  I guess when the entire world is dedicated to making your life as miserable as possible, worshipping Skaen is the only logical choice.

I wonder what happened to the guy who was trying to do chanter/ranger.  That was the only non-Priest build I'd heard of that seemed like it had any chance of working at all.

I'm not normally someone who likes to dump on theorycrafting, but for the Ultimate I think there's a huge risk of bad theorycrafting because there's a bunch of situations that can screw you over if you fail to anticipate it. I forget who it was, but chanter/ranger seemed wholly predicated on being able to discretely start fights and pull enemies carefully using companion (while still generating phrases for doing powerful summons) but there's at least one fight that is impossible to disengage [water dragon] and I honestly don't know how that mechanic would work with e.g. Hauani O Whe where you basically need to keep pressure on the smaller oozes or else their AI will happily merge while you're waiting and staying out of combat. I'm sure there are other worrisome situations as well. I'll never say never, just that I'm somewhat skeptical that someone could pull that off (or any non-priest build).

[Wotcha]

32 minutes ago, thelee said:

I'm not normally someone who likes to dump on theorycrafting, but for the Ultimate I think there's a huge risk of bad theorycrafting because there's a bunch of situations that can screw you over if you fail to anticipate it. I forget who it was, but chanter/ranger seemed wholly predicated on being able to discretely start fights and pull enemies carefully using companion (while still generating phrases for doing powerful summons) but there's at least one fight that is impossible to disengage [water dragon] and I honestly don't know how that mechanic would work with e.g. Hauani O Whe where you basically need to keep pressure on the smaller oozes or else their AI will happily merge while you're waiting and staying out of combat. I'm sure there are other worrisome situations as well. I'll never say never, just that I'm somewhat skeptical that someone could pull that off (or any non-priest build).

Oh, I fully agree, but the schtick of whittling (almost) everything down from perfect safety via summons was promising enough that I Wanted To Believe.  It is such a solid and wide-coverage trick, that it seems at least faintly plausible that the enumerated list of fights it DOESN'T cover might be manageable to figure out alternate bespoke tricks for.  That's what I meant by "seemed like it had any chance of working at all".  To merely have a glimmer of hope is head and shoulders above any other trick I'd seen, besides the proven Brilliant Priest cheese.

[Matroska]

On 12/14/2019 at 7:21 PM, draego said:

DIdnt know where to post congrats but congrats @thelee i assume this is you. 

Mind blowing that only 4 people have done that so far. I'm still on my first Normal playthrough. 

Anyway, on a totally different and far more basic note, when the game says "beneficial effects" what exactly does that refer to? Would a summoned weapon count? I'm guessing something like Infuse With Vital Essence (Fit and Smart) would count since it has those bracketed keywords, but what about something without such keywords like Merciless Gaze (15% of hits = crits)? In short, given how games normally work, I'd guess that not all effects that are beneficial (e.g. summoning a weapon) are within the definition of "beneficial effects" as a specific term.

[Enoch]

2 hours ago, Matroska said:

Anyway, on a totally different and far more basic note, when the game says "beneficial effects" what exactly does that refer to? Would a summoned weapon count? I'm guessing something like Infuse With Vital Essence (Fit and Smart) would count since it has those bracketed keywords, but what about something without such keywords like Merciless Gaze (15% of hits = crits)? In short, given how games normally work, I'd guess that not all effects that are beneficial (e.g. summoning a weapon) are within the definition of "beneficial effects" as a specific term.

I'm certainly not on the level of an Ultimate player, but, in my experience, it's pretty broad.  There is probably a hidden quality to most statuses that flag them as "beneficial" or "hostile," and I can't recall any instances where they really missed something.  I haven't tested Merciless Gaze specifically (IMO, it's an underwhelming spell that I don't really use), but I know that I've seen summoned weapons suppressed by Arcane Dampener, which certainly keys on the same "beneficial" quality. 

Everything I can think of that you would cast as a "buff" is going to count as "beneficial" such that it would be suppressed by Dampener, or have its duration influenced by an effect like Cleansing Flame, Concussive Tranquilizer, Salvation of Time, or Arcane Cleanse.  Conversely, "hostile" effects have their duration affected by RES, are influenced abilities like Suppress Affliction, Liberating Exhortation, Minor Intercession, Light of Eothas, and the Enfeebled condition. 

The weirdness comes in with effects that don't have a duration.  Sometimes you can Dampen enemy buffs that you can't Cleanse, because they're limited by a factor other than time (e.g., Wizard's Double lasting until the character is Hit by something).

 

What I probably should understand the details of but don't is how this interacts with statuses like a Barbarian's Frenzy, which has effects that are both good and bad for your character.  (I'm guessing that that particular example is considered purely "beneficial," in spite of the DEF debuff, but I can't say that I've tested that specifically.  I highly doubt that Obsidz would've let us trigger a buff that has a drawback, and then Suppress the drawback.)

Edited December 18, 2019 by Enoch

[Boeroer]

In general: everything that is attached to your character, has a duration and gives you any sort of positive effect (buff, summoned item or healing etc.) it's a benefical effect. Note that some cipher "buffs" are not attached to you but to the enemy (like Wild Leech or Time Parasite) and thus are not a benefical effect on you but a hostile effect on the enemy. You benefit of course, but in terms of mechanics (like with Salvation of Time) they work differently.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Boeroer

[thelee]

6 hours ago, Boeroer said:

In general: everything that is attached to your character, has a duration and gives you any sort of positive effect (buff, summoned item or healing etc.) it's a benefical effect. Note that some cipher "buffs" are not attached to you but to the enemy (like Wild Leech or Time Parasite) and thus are not a benefical effect on you but a hostile effect on the enemy. You benefit of course, but in terms of mechanics (like with Salvation of Time) they work differently.

Yeah, if you hover over yourself or an enemy in combat, you'll see persistent effects in either the top ("beneficial") or bottom ("hostile"). That's what "beneficial" effect referring to, and it's pretty broad.

On top of the exceptions that Boeroer mentions, the chant/linger duration of chanter chants are completely bypassed by beneficial effect modifications (e.g. if you have an amulet that is +10% beneficial effect, then you get no benefit even when the chant is affecting yourself). There's some override that happens late in the process for chant/linger that seems to only include intellect and chanter-specific effects (like troubadour).

[thelee]

15 hours ago, Enoch said:

Everything I can think of that you would cast as a "buff" is going to count as "beneficial" such that it would be suppressed by Dampener, or have its duration influenced by an effect like Cleansing Flame, Concussive Tranquilizer, Salvation of Time, or Arcane Cleanse. 

What'll really bake one's noodle is how suppressing effects like Suppress Affliction and Arcane Dampener vs duration-reduction effects like Cleanse interact differently with durational effects.

For the unaware, if you have a buff that is suppressed you can't refresh that buff. Casting it again won't do anything, and can mess up simple AI scripts because the AI will think they're missing an inspiration/buff and try to re-cast that inspiration/buff, only to no effect. If you have a custom AI script that has a 0 second cooldown on this kind of conditional, your character will happily eat through all their class resource trying to recast the buff.

However, you can still interact with inspirations/afflictions that are suppressed via normal countering/overriding mechanics, even as they're suppressed.

All this has some odd interactions; in some cases, Arcane Dampener and Suppress Affliction and Liberating Exhortation--despite being lower level effects compared to Arcane Cleanse or Minor Intercession or similar duration adjusting effects--are actually much better than the direct duration-adjustment effects:

• For example, some enemies have basically unlimited use of their buffs and will happily just rebuff if their effect is dispelled. If you Arcane Cleanse it away, you just spent a valuable AL9 casting slot only to just waste one of their actions to rebuff it. If, on the other hand, you suppress it, they can't refresh their buff while it's supressed.
• If you're in one of those fights where you're getting charmed/dominated a lot by the same effect, you're better off suppressing it then trying to counter it. Successive attempts at dominate/charm won't do anything (unless it's a different named effect).
• If you have afflictions on your characters that are actively suppressed, you can still counter them by casting a paired inspiration, so that when the suppression wears off they don't get the affliction back. Suppression can be a good way to buy yourself time to do some cleanup like this (since most suppression effects I can think of are very fast cast).

 

Also, the only use I've ever found for Potions of Major Recovery (-10s to hostile durations) is to accelerate how quickly dampener wears off, because man it sucks getting hit with one.

Edited December 18, 2019 by thelee

[Enoch]

18 minutes ago, thelee said:

Also, the only use I've ever found for Potions of Major Recovery (-10s to hostile durations) is to accelerate how quickly dampener wears off, because man it sucks getting hit with one.

Yeah, I've been playing with a single-classed Priest in the party, and my #1 use of her tier-IX spells is Light of Eothas, specifically to reduce Dampener duration.  Which feels pretty weird for what are, ostensibly, the ultimate abilities for the class.  I'll have to make a note to put some of those potions in the quickslots of my most buff-reliant characters. 

[Tenray]

First of all hello guys and wishing you great holidays.

I got some spare time now aswell and wanted to get the news about PoE2 Ultimate runs!

First of all congratz @thelee Wishing you the best aswell! Dedication and patience were you friends =D

How is the rest of you doing ? Anyone else working on a ultimate run ?

----

@Enoch you can disjoint Arcane Dampener if you use Shadowing Beyond.

 

 

[AlyMintChip]

Hello everyone, I recently heard about this challenge (from Thelee's written guide) and thought that I'd give it a try. I'm only just entering the planning stages but there's already such a wealth of knowledge compiled about the challenge and I'm looking forward to digesting it all. 

I don't have much to add at this point but since Tenray asked if anyone else was working on the challenge I figured I'd stop lurking. *waves*

[thelee]

On 1/3/2020 at 1:05 PM, AlyMintChip said:

Hello everyone, I recently heard about this challenge (from Thelee's written guide) and thought that I'd give it a try. I'm only just entering the planning stages but there's already such a wealth of knowledge compiled about the challenge and I'm looking forward to digesting it all. 

I don't have much to add at this point but since Tenray asked if anyone else was working on the challenge I figured I'd stop lurking. *waves*

best of luck!

 

the one thing i would point out here is that if you aren't using a wizard, you should do research on the SSS dlc encounter checks. There are some pretty specific stat requirements so you don't accumulate too many injuries and/or die or do unnecessary fights. I think one of them is mentioned in this thread by me. (wizard can use binding web to make crossing the bridge in SSS really easy so they have less of a concern)

Edited January 5, 2020 by thelee

[AlyMintChip]

I'm still a little conflicted on what I want to do it as exactly. On one hand, there are lots more resources for wizard/tactician/priest, but on the other I like the idea of doing it as a rogue/woedica, which Tenray has at least demonstrated is possible. Do you have a recommended resource regarding the encounter stat checks or is the best way to find them just to dig through the game files?

[thelee]

21 hours ago, AlyMintChip said:

I'm still a little conflicted on what I want to do it as exactly. On one hand, there are lots more resources for wizard/tactician/priest, but on the other I like the idea of doing it as a rogue/woedica, which Tenray has at least demonstrated is possible. Do you have a recommended resource regarding the encounter stat checks or is the best way to find them just to dig through the game files?

yeah, unfortunately the most important encounter checks are also the ones that are the poorest documented ones on the internet. i would go through game files, get familiar with how dialogue/encounter scripting works, and use the in-game console (in a separate game, so you don't disqualify yourself) to verify that your understanding of how to pass the checks is correct (essentially what I had to do since not being a wizard I was essentially flying blind for some of my stuff in the Ultimate).

or you should do something that someone has already done and is well-known and video-documented. the bridge in SSS, to return to that example, can be easily beaten either with Binding Web on a wizard or "8 athletics, 14 dexterity, and high stealth or mechanics" (I ended up looking this up in my own video notes).

[UltimaLuminaire]

First log-in of the year. Happy near year, everyone.

Congrats to thelee on your Ultimate success! I'll have to check out your written guide soon. Can feel the itch coming back.

All the talk of Arcane Dampener is reminding me of my attempts at maximizing Will just to force it to graze or miss. What a run-ender in random fights vs mages.

[Armaxy]

Hello everyone, congrats every Ultimate challenge successors, you are awesome.

I was also inspired to beat it, all calculations and strategy trainings are ready, but I have some questions.

Is it legit to use Scordeo's Edge accuracy stacking exploit (requires save-load shenanigans) and Hylea reward + Luminous Adra potion stacking (save-load requires too) or this will disqualify me form Ultimate challenge? First is not so necessary for my run (more like funny!) but last is extremely important.