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I played DO:S 1 and 2 recently (and more or less back-to-back) both enhanced versions. Combined, they gave me a good 260 hours*, so there's that. (But maybe a bit too much of that was faffing around with gear and crafting and stuff and selling stuff...)

D:OS 2 actully let me have an Undead character (and had it not been for early plot spoilers, he would have been the main), which is a massive point in it's favour. I thought that their TBS combat was pretty much about the best handled I've played personally, credit to them.

One thing I've noticed, now that i've finally started on Deadfire in anger is that in the RTwP, I have a tendancy to let Eder and Maia alone more-or-less entirely, and only do some micromanagement of Xoti and Aloth for spells, and mostly just concentrate on me and my cipher. I think there is something to be said for the fact that the AD&D RTwP where there was only really spellcasters to manage meant that I wasn't REALLY managing my whole party the way I rather though I was. I also tend to brute-force more in RTwP, whereas in TBS, I tend to us more strategy. (Notable as far back as FFX vrs all the other FF...)

 

So, swings and roundabouts. I might pay more attention to the other characters in TBS mode, but I probably would be having quite as much fun spamming Ascendant and then going Amplified Wave and Mind Blades on everything as much....

 

(Not tried Kingmkaer yet - backed it, so it's been sitting around, waiting for bugs and stuff. I'm patient. (I must be, I backed Starcitizen/Squadron 42...) I waited a year for PoE2 to get everything sorted (after my early abort because the character reputations were borked and I felt that was, like, half the point...!), so I can wait util they do their enhanced edition.

Especially since it might be the last new one for a while again, since after the compatively rush, we seem to not have any more on the horizon. Please DO enlighten me if I'm wrong, it'd be nice to have something to look forward to aside from expansions to Paradox games and Total Warhammer...!)

 

 

 

*At some point, I must play PS:T enhanced edition, it'll be interesting to see how many hours it actually takes to play, logged for the first time ever... Witcher 3 hold the record at 215 hours and unlike D:OS, I hadn't quite reached the point of "I've about had enough now."

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I played persona 5 over 80 hours and haven't finished it yet.


nowt

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10 hours ago, Aotrs Commander said:

One thing I've noticed, now that i've finally started on Deadfire in anger is that in the RTwP, I have a tendancy to let Eder and Maia alone more-or-less entirely, and only do some micromanagement of Xoti and Aloth for spells, and mostly just concentrate on me and my cipher. I think there is something to be said for the fact that the AD&D RTwP where there was only really spellcasters to manage meant that I wasn't REALLY managing my whole party the way I rather though I was. I also tend to brute-force more in RTwP, whereas in TBS, I tend to us more strategy.

I felt that removing party size to 5, did help me to manage individual characters to the fullest (in PoE1 they tend to be on auto, especially that with limited resources use of skills is discouraged). 

I do tend to brute force my way through Deadfire encounters in real-time, if I play too much of it. I feel it is more of a problem of difficulty then real-time combat. It is quicker (or feels quicker?) to leave things on auto, and have your party slowly maul their way through enemies, rather then try to figure out which defence is the weakest, properly debuff enemies and effectively take them out. 

A benefit of turn-based combat is that playing ineffectively really feels crap, as you have to watch ineffective swings hit one by one, and it is quicker to properly tackle enemies, as there is no “fast forward” option. The downside is, that some o the fights can really really drag. Finally going through Beast of Winter, and some enemies can take a long time to kill (some fights were lengthy even in real time). 

I think it would work in games favour if they found a way to punish inappropriate play. Problem with those kind of games is that everything can be beat with inflated stats, so as you level up killing enemies gets easier, and players engagement with systems decreases (at least in my case).

i thought an accomplishment of Witcher3 system was that even if you were overpowered, game would punish your u for playing badly - enemies would block you attacks, your attacks wouldn’t hit etc. (Although, I felt the leveling system of W3 hurt the game more then helped it). Naturally, it is quite a different game, but underlying philosophy applies. If avoiding enemies attacks, and figuring their attack pattern becomes optional the combat becomes less satisfying, not more.

i wonder if it would be prudent to design a party cRPG were new levels would add complexity to combat and unlock new tools to the player, but not make characters simply statistically better. 


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56 minutes ago, Wormerine said:

 The downside is, that some o the fights can really really drag. Finally going through Beast of Winter, and some enemies can take a long time to kill (some fights were lengthy even in real time). 

And therein lies the issue of TBS verses RTwP. TBS, because of its very nature of being deliberate, naturally encourages better tactics BECAUSE you have the time to think about it (even though the "wP" bit exists, TBS naturally makes you consider each action more. But do TBS wrong, and that makes everything tedius drag, especially if its no an interesting fight - which is why I quickly fell out of favour with the JRPG Tactical RPG subgenre. (Stuff like FF avoids that, because you eliminate all the movement that is what tends to take all the time... But you have also then eliminated that tactical aspect.) Too much uninteresting grinding you could just rush through (like you could in, say, FF).

 

RTwP gets around that issue, but also inherently encourages less engagement, because you have the OPTION to just go "ah, frack it, let the AI/autoattacks handle it" either on an individual character basis or for the whole party. (And because everything happens simultaneously, you kind of have to, unless you are individually managing everything with frequent auto-pauses - I found that drove me insane after the first couple of combat of pause-pause-pause-pause and you might as well have been playig TBs at that point.)

 

Tides of Numera went TBS and they were so focussed on not having grind-y fights and every fight a boss fight they almost forgot to put any fights in, and I think that did hurt the game a bit in the long run, since it made it so short.

 

D:OS, and 2 especially, seemed to me to get that balance RIGHT, in that the fights (to me, anyway) never felt tediously grindy like that. I think it was a combination of plentiful "spells" for everyone, plus the plenthora of movement abilities (to take away all the "and this turn, I just round around") and stuff like the surfaces, capped with the fights always seemed to be well-made - by which I mean, good old combined-arms, of the sort I personally use when I write my own quests. (Compare a lot of fights in BG or even PS:T where it was "a mob of these dudes.") I think it made me more of a convert to TBS than I've ever been previously, because - to me at least - it showed me what it could be when you got it right.

 

So. Yeah. It's kind of a hard thing to tackle, since there's not happy medium (RTwP essentially IS the happiest medium between TBS and full-on RTS). RTwP arguably is the better simulation (for verisimilitude), but at the cost of you basically ceding a fair bit of control.

 

When I eventually play PoE2 again*, I'll almost certainly play it on TBS, just to see what it feels like. (I might even ramp the difficulty up a bit, since I'll actually be thinking and might use stuff like Empower or items that I normally just don't; actually, I think I use them less in PoE2 than I did in PoE1 for some reason...)

 

 

* Which will be a good while after this run - I have found that there is zero point me playing the same game twice in a row, the second-playthrough never gets finished, got to leave it some time to fallow! Only played PoE 1 the once, (Actually, games which I play more than once are quite honoured, in the dizzy heights of PS:T and the like. I've not even pklayed BG2 all the way through more than one-and-a-half times...)

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Bringing up RTS is a good idea, because I don't think the wave of nu-RTwP games (or rather ist developers) understand RTS as much as Bioware did back in the day (and the compromises needed to make it "work"). Bioware held regular Office tournaments of Warcraft 2, whilst the Folks at Obsidian Play or Owlcat Play tabletop at their Offices (Owlcat are doing right now reportedly in preparation to their Kingmaker Sequel, good game btw). In other words, Bioware back then understood the Format they tried to adapt to, whilst the newer wave of developers try to cram stuff into a Format that they perceived was Baldur's Gate. That's what at times it feels like anyway -- and to me it also seems apparent how various System Designers at Obsidian prefer TB combat from the go.

There's lots of Combat I like, but at its worst and busy it's really the worst of both Worlds. I couldn't see any of these games becoming a spectator Sport as Starcraft / Warcraft has become (not that they try to, but this affects the Players playing as well). Because depending on the complexity of the Encounter, it is really hard to tell what is going on; and on a strategy Level, for the Player get a feel of what shifted the tides of battle. Mechanically, it's sometimes just too much. The more frustrating Thing then is that the games encourage you to dig deeper into a mechanical Level -- but if you do, say by following the Combat log, it becomes a total slog. F'r instance, on Kingmaker when battling the Staglord (quite a Grand in scope Encounter), I buffed my Party with various spells, and also potions (amongst others Blur -- granting a 20% Chance of the Opponent missing).  There was so much going on during the battle that I had to traverse through pages and pages of battle log AFTER the Combat to get somewhat of a feel of how often this had actually happened. (Just because the potion Gifts a 20% Chance, doesn't mean that every fifth Opposition attack went "missing" during that Combat -- random Chance, Regression to the mean and all that, which apparently even testers of These Things don't understand).  

Add in the (true to the source material) various conditions and additionally hidden checks that could trigger Attacks Of Opportunity / free attacks which can multiply later on, and which Bioware never implemented from 2nd Edition AD&D, and there you go. (Which btw, are also fairly "Abstract" mechanics of Encounter resolution, whilst real-time goes with a more natural flow of Combat). I personally happen to think that Bioware didn't for reason, but yeah. Likewise, compared to an RTS like Warcraft 2/3, which in comparison can be a bit more rock, paper scissory as you face the same Units over and over which also have a specific type of use, "modern" RPGs Systems multiply not only each "Units" abilities, but also add more of those that aren't even visualized. Combat Resolution is a fairly more complex affair in General, as the Units in an RTS you maybe can upgrade a Little, but only this far, and that's that. Reducing Party sizes (Tyranny / Deadfire) as well as slowing down Combat or changing encounter design only works around the limitations rather than adressing them. Everything is still going to happen simultaneously. 

Maybe it's my personal bias due to some of my playing experience with the newer games (I had replayed BG 1 and IWD just a while ago), but I think the demand/complaining About RtWP weren't as big if the devs understood the strengths and weakness of going real-time a tad better. To put it like this Player does: "We'll just Keep spamming everything we got" indeed. (Which on Deadfire you can do anyway without worrying an Inch, as ressource or rather spell/ability Management is barely existent).
 


This is an interesting podcast from apparently non-harcore Infinity Engine Players, btw.

https://www.idlethumbs.net/forums/topic/12093-episode-436-to-infinity-engine-and-beyond/

Edited by Sven_

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