Politics and Statesmenship: A Forum Special Report

[Guard Dog]

Changing the subject with a funny pic:

 

 

Couple of caveats. The pic is from 2005 and Clinton is misquoted from 2013. She actually said more business leaders should run for office because maybe they can be rented but not bought. (Meaning they are already independently wealthy and should be less corruptible. She was trying to be humorous). She never mentioned Trump or anyone else by name in that exchange.

 

Still... how did that work out all around? Sh lost and the billionaire business leader turned out to be quite dishonest  

Edited April 20, 2019 by Guard Dog

[smjjames]

It is a somewhat accurate paraphrasing of her actual quote though, insofar as Trump would be considered a business leader. I think I remember a similar quote coming up in the 2016 election, but I do remember similar things being brought up, and Trump himself claimed that he couldn't be bought by lobbyists due to his wealth. Which of course, we now know that giving him wads of cash might not neccesarily 'buy' him, but kissing ass definetly will.

Edited April 20, 2019 by smjjames

[213374U]

  An incompetent military makes a bigger mess of things. If they have their s--t together they will screw up a s--thole in far less time.  As for your second point anyone who signs up knows there is a risk. Especially the ones who join during wartime. I had been in the Corps a year and a half when Iraq invaded Kuwait. when i joined the US had not been in any major conflicts in nearly 15 years. Small stuff like Grenada were to be expected. When Desert Shield started and we were prepping to deploy I was nervous as hell but a little excited too.  

 

Of course had I any inkling where I would actually end up I guess I wouldn't have been. But your point is spot on mostly. I didn't join to go fight, I joined to go to college. And while I was happy to do my part for the Red White and Blue it wasn't my primary motivation. Of course, no general ever woke up an said "what the hell we'll just go invade somebody today". The real blood is on the hands of the politicians who start fights.

Agreed on all points. However, knowing that your poorly trained and motivated army is probably going to make a mess, take a long time to achieve any objectives, and incur heavy losses in the process -possibly among people you personally know- may be enough for even the most gung-ho of hawks to reconsider the use of military force.

 

Weren't the Founders against keeping standing armies too?

[smjjames]

I wasn't sure exactly myself their position on it, so I did a google check. Looks like they weren't against the concept of one on principle, they were concerned about the ravages and issues a standing army could have on the populace during peacetime and how an empowered executive would wield the military.

Edited April 20, 2019 by smjjames

[Guard Dog]

In 1789 the idea of maintaining a standing army when a war was unlikely was just impractical. The US Army didn't resemble anything like today until the after the Civil War. 

 

The Air Force was really small back in those days!  

[Zoraptor]

Not to mention colonial and possibly a bit racist, particularily the work ethic bit.

 

The work ethic thing isn't really racist per se, it's more 'classist' than anything so Elitist is a far better term. 'Work ethic' has always been a phrase for complaining about poor people of whatever skin colour while making the complainer feel good about themselves.

 

Here and in the UK 'Work Ethic' is used almost exclusively nowadays to complain about (typically white) locals being unwilling to work (lower than) minimum wage jobs with awful conditions and no job security- those jobs are typically filled by immigrants, thus they're considered to have better 'work ethic' despite coming from countries the old colonialists would have labelled as 'lazy'. Indeed, back when there was slavery, indentured labour, work houses and the like 'work ethic' was used to complain about the slaves and locals not being that keen on picking your coffee beans, opium, cotton, chopping sugar cane, laying your railways, operating your looms or whatever for no or minimal reward instead. 'No work ethic' was also an accusation leveled at Greece by Germany, which of course makes Germans feel good about putting the boot in.

 

So it's also a particularly useful phrase due to the moral aspect of it, since it of course implies that if only the poor sods would get off their chuff and work hard they'd (have) succeed(ed) and their position is thus their fault- and, equally of course you are wonderful, just tremendous really for putting up with their laziness as much as you do and any discipline or complaining from you are done For Their Own Good.

 

As a pillar of western success 'work ethic' is a load of rubbish- it should probably be replaced with 'moral imperative' or something similar which reflects reality better.

Edited April 21, 2019 by Zoraptor

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

I have no idea about Romania's military history. I'm German and only live here temporarily because of work.

Careful lest Volo calls you a literal Nazi. :>

 

Since he even seems to call Mother Theresa a nazi that doesn't seem to mean much, does it?

 

I'm sure I'm already a SJW Nazi because I think questioning taxes in general and assuming every politician to be evil is extremely silly.

 

We are all Nazis now.

[Gromnir]

In 1789 the idea of maintaining a standing army when a war was unlikely was just impractical. The US Army didn't resemble anything like today until the after the Civil War. 

 

The Air Force was really small back in those days!  

by 1900, the US military were back down to 25,000 regulars from total o' __________ combatants.  am unsure o' a number 'cause estimates is all over the place.  gd likely knows better than us.  am not guessing total civil war combatants, but peak at any one time. guestimate and say peak were a bit more than 1 million combatants, though casualties were horrific high.  pre civil war, total military personnel were close to 17,000.

 

world war 1 appears to be what genuine changed the dynamic as the folks in power recognized how wanting to be isolationist in the 20th century were less viable than were the case in the 19th and 18th century. the world were effective smaller, and it were impossible to ignore how a relative minor event in europe could result in the US needing decide whether or not to send many thousands o' young men abroad to fight and die for reasons they little understood.  argue right or wrong, but ww1 appears to have resulted in a fundamental change in philosophy insofar as standing armies n' such is concerned.

 

ww1 had US military at ~280k, but post ww1 numbers dropped far less precipitous than after the civil war. total numbers were down to ~190k by late 1930s.

 

'course am not taking US population growth into account.  US population near tripled 'tween 1850 and 1890, yes? so military increase from pre civil war to post didn't even keep pace as a % o' population growth. am honest not sure what were US population during the 1930s.  bit less than doubled from 1900?  am complete guessing. 

 

*shrug*

 

regardless, appears as if ww1 were the big change.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

@BruceVC: Doesn't this bit from the exerpt 'How did the West overtake its Eastern rivals? And has the zenith of Western power now passed? Acclaimed historian Niall Ferguson argues that beginning in the fifteenth century, the West developed six powerful new concepts, or “killer applications”—competition, science, the rule of law, modern medicine, consumerism, and the work ethic—that the Rest lacked, allowing it to surge past all other competitors.' sound really eliteist to you? Not to mention colonial and possibly a bit racist, particularily the work ethic bit. Whether or not it's truly representative of the book, I don't know, but it sounds more like someone from the turn of the 20th rather than early 21st century.

 

I took numbers guy's (as I see him nicknamed sometimes around here, if he doesn't mind it) criticism as criticising how it was used rather than a criticsm of the four points. Use a tool the wrong way or in an ineffective way, even the best tool in the universe is going to cause issues.

 

The book really covers these topics in a much more nuanced and historically accurate way, for example he absolutely recognizes and discusses how the ancient Chinese and the Ottoman Empire were the original inventors of many things the West later on adopted, refined and in many ways improved. Or rather ensured were sustainable 

 

He is not one of these "  The West created everything  and we so amazing " , he is critical and unabashed about the good and bad around the Wests economic and industrial hegemony nowadays so dont worry too much about that summary

 

Its an excellent and insightful historical  read told in an objective way, similar to " Why Nations Fail " if you enjoy these types of genres 

 

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/12158480-why-nations-fail

[smjjames]

 

In 1789 the idea of maintaining a standing army when a war was unlikely was just impractical. The US Army didn't resemble anything like today until the after the Civil War. 

 

The Air Force was really small back in those days!  

 

by 1900, the US military were back down to 25,000 regulars from total o' __________ combatants.  am unsure o' a number 'cause estimates is all over the place.  gd likely knows better than us.  am not guessing total civil war combatants, but peak at any one time. guestimate and say peak were a bit more than 1 million combatants, though casualties were horrific high.  pre civil war, total military personnel were close to 17,000.

 

world war 1 appears to be what genuine changed the dynamic as the folks in power recognized how wanting to be isolationist in the 20th century were less viable than were the case in the 19th and 18th century. the world were effective smaller, and it were impossible to ignore how a relative minor event in europe could result in the US needing decide whether or not to send many thousands o' young men abroad to fight and die for reasons they little understood.  argue right or wrong, but ww1 appears to have resulted in a fundamental change in philosophy insofar as standing armies n' such is concerned.

 

ww1 had US military at ~280k, but post ww1 numbers dropped far less precipitous than after the civil war. total numbers were down to ~190k by late 1930s.

 

'course am not taking US population growth into account.  US population near tripled 'tween 1850 and 1890, yes? so military increase from pre civil war to post didn't even keep pace as a % o' population growth. am honest not sure what were US population during the 1930s.  bit less than doubled from 1900?  am complete guessing. 

 

*shrug*

 

regardless, appears as if ww1 were the big change.

 

HA! Good Fun!

It may have started a bit earlier in the late 19th century and WWI certainly accompanied the change in thought, but it seems like WWII is the one that catalyzed the change to the large modern military we have now.

[Volourn]

"Except I have no idea why he sticks around in Canada where tax evasion and draft dodging apparently is punishable by death."

 

Huh?

[majestic]

"Except I have no idea why he sticks around in Canada where tax evasion and draft dodging apparently is punishable by death."

 

Huh?

 

You keep saying governments have the right to rape, kill, murder, shoot and burn you at the stake for not paying taxes. Since that doesn't apply to any Western nation that I know of I can only assume you mean Canada, right?

[BruceVC]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-48001720

 

https://edition.cnn.com/asia/live-news/sri-lanka-easter-sunday-explosions-dle-intl/index.html

 

Appalling suicide bomb attacks in Sri Lanka on numerous churches and in this time of special religious reflection 

 

My thoughts with the victims 

Edited April 21, 2019 by BruceVC

[Blarghagh]

My thoughts with the victims

Weren't you rich? There must be something more useful you can offer them?

[Guard Dog]

 

"Except I have no idea why he sticks around in Canada where tax evasion and draft dodging apparently is punishable by death."

 

Huh?

 

You keep saying governments have the right to rape, kill, murder, shoot and burn you at the stake for not paying taxes. Since that doesn't apply to any Western nation that I know of I can only assume you mean Canada, right?

 

  I was going to say I don't know about rape but there was this one TSA agent at the airport in DFW....

[BruceVC]

 

My thoughts with the victims

Weren't you rich? There must be something more useful you can offer them?

 

 

I dont normally give money away unless its through official fund raising NGO or charities that are legitimate and or sanctioned 

 

Lets see what comes from this around what help they may require 

[Gromnir]

 

My thoughts with the victims

Weren't you rich? There must be something more useful you can offer them?

 

am knowing you are speaking to bruce, but am gonna observe how we ain't gonna send money aid to sri lanka.  is only two national charities we contribute dollars to: st. jude children's research hospital and the national breast cancer foundation.  another large % o' our charity contributions go to smaller organizations.  examples: mustard seed school and pine ridge girl's school.

 

our accountant hates us, but the most significant charity we does is technically gifts.  anonymous contribution to help somebody make car or rent payment(s) is common.  local kid we knew who had been on-again/off-again mustard seed school got scholarships to cal poly which were gonna cover tuition and some housing, but nothing else, so we made sure she got a decent laptop and a modest clothing allowance.  medi-cal covers eyeglasses for kids and residents o' nursing homes, but you are outta luck if you are over 21 and living on the street.  medi-cal will pay for testing to get a prescription, just won't pay for lenses and frames.  local food bank knows o' dozens o' folks who need glasses and we help out from time-to-time. etc.

 

is so many folks close to Gromnir who need help that it seems wrong to ignore the immediate and proximate needy... and is arguable selfish on our part, but am liking to be able to actual see positive and personal impact, even if am remaining anonymous.   

 

aside: in our mind is not 'bout who deserves help.  the people most in need o' help is frequent hopelessly self-destructive.  have never let deserve get in the way o' help. if roles were reversed, and Gromnir needed help, we would hope somebody would offer, even if we were too proud or stoopid or angry to take such help.

 

am finding is easy to provide money when what is often needed is volunteers, so we do try and make self available, and as o' may 4, we expect am gonna be doing much more such contributions o' time as is our semi-official retirement day.

 

regardless, even if makes us a bad person, am not gonna be sending money to victims in sri lanka or to the folks rebuilding notre dame. is literal dozens o' folks who come through the doors at snahc every day who need help. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps so is clear, am not criticizing folks who send money to sri lanka victims or whatever other charity you see fit.  is so many people and organizations needing help.  if you are able to help and do, then you get no criticism from us.  am only mentioning why we avoid making contributions when there is a natural or man-made crisis which affects people Gromnir will never meet. 

Edited April 22, 2019 by Gromnir

[Maedhros]

My favorite charity is SOS Children's villages. I like that they send you an update on what your money has been used for, so you can see the concrete results.

 

I don't give much, partly because I don't earn much, and because I already do my best to help children in different life situations every day. So I don't really feed bad about not giving more.

[BruceVC]

 

 

My thoughts with the victims

Weren't you rich? There must be something more useful you can offer them?

 

am knowing you are speaking to bruce, but am gonna observe how we ain't gonna send money aid to sri lanka.  is only two national charities we contribute dollars to: st. jude children's research hospital and the national breast cancer foundation.  another large % o' our charity contributions go to smaller organizations.  examples: mustard seed school and pine ridge girl's school.

 

our accountant hates us, but the most significant charity we does is technically gifts.  anonymous contribution to help somebody make car or rent payment(s) is common.  local kid we knew who had been on-again/off-again mustard seed school got scholarships to cal poly which were gonna cover tuition and some housing, but nothing else, so we made sure she got a decent laptop and a modest clothing allowance.  medi-cal covers eyeglasses for kids and residents o' nursing homes, but you are outta luck if you are over 21 and living on the street.  medi-cal will pay for testing to get a prescription, just won't pay for lenses and frames.  local food bank knows o' dozens o' folks who need glasses and we help out from time-to-time. etc.

 

is so many folks close to Gromnir who need help that it seems wrong to ignore the immediate and proximate needy... and is arguable selfish on our part, but am liking to be able to actual see positive and personal impact, even if am remaining anonymous.   

 

aside: in our mind is not 'bout who deserves help.  the people most in need o' help is frequent hopelessly self-destructive.  have never let deserve get in the way o' help. if roles were reversed, and Gromnir needed help, we would hope somebody would offer, even if we were too proud or stoopid or angry to take such help.

 

am finding is easy to provide money when what is often needed is volunteers, so we do try and make self available, and as o' may 4, we expect am gonna be doing much more such contributions o' time as is our semi-official retirement day.

 

regardless, even if makes us a bad person, am not gonna be sending money to victims in sri lanka or to the folks rebuilding notre dame. is literal dozens o' folks who come through the doors at snahc every day who need help. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps so is clear, am not criticizing folks who send money to sri lanka victims or whatever other charity you see fit.  is so many people and organizations needing help.  if you are able to help and do, then you get no criticism from us.  am only mentioning why we avoid making contributions when there is a natural or man-made crisis which affects people Gromnir will never meet. 

 

I dont think this argument makes you a bad person at all, I think you are very generous and kind person. You have been on your own personal  journey to get to the point of perceived " wealth " but you didnt have family resources which always makes things easier

 

I imagine you have had to balance a real empathy and understanding of poverty in the Native American communities, who assume you must or should  help them, with other communities and organisations outside of the Native American reservations who also you can see would benefit from financial donations 

 

So why would you send money to Sri Lanka when there are many other local charities and people you can help, to me this makes perfect sense

 

The reality for me is I live in a country where we are inundated with high levels of poverty and economic inequality, any money I donate or NGO I support are within my own country first and foremost 

[Blarghagh]

My thoughts with the victims

Weren't you rich? There must be something more useful you can offer them?

regardless, even if makes us a bad person, am not gonna be sending money to victims in sri lanka or to the folks rebuilding notre dame. is literal dozens o' folks who come through the doors at snahc every day who need help.

It does not make you a bad person, but then you also didn't make a show of "thoughts and prayers" like Brucey did, as if such things did anything.

[BruceVC]

 

My thoughts with the victims

Weren't you rich? There must be something more useful you can offer them?

regardless, even if makes us a bad person, am not gonna be sending money to victims in sri lanka or to the folks rebuilding notre dame. is literal dozens o' folks who come through the doors at snahc every day who need help.

It does not make you a bad person, but then you also didn't make a show of "thoughts and prayers" like Brucey did, as if such things did anything.

 

Oh but you wrong there, "  thoughts and prayers " are a coping mechanism and definitely help many people in times of grief and or personal loss like this attack in Sri Lanka

 

You could be in a situation where you have lost  members of your  family, friends or  loved ones in a war situation, natural disaster, human disaster , criminal attack or terrorist attack and sometimes looking for spiritual comfort or just having complete strangers say kind words on the Internet or leave flowers really matters to some of the victims because it demonstrates we are a global community and people ostensibly care about others 

 

So we shouldn't be cynical about these things unless you know the real intent and feelings someone has about a tragedy or why they express solidarity around loss of others

Edited April 22, 2019 by BruceVC

[Gfted1]

You dont grieve or donate like randos on the internet!?!? HaHa   /Nelson

[BruceVC]

https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/spur-waiter-who-got-r4-tip-has-big-dreams-after-strangers-donate-r4-444-20190420

 

Guys here is a heartwarming story about a black waiter in SA being subjected to racist abuse but complete strangers helping to ameliorate the situation

 

This kind of confirms my opinion that most human beings are inherently good and do try to do the right thing, read the note the stranger left him in the article 

[Guard Dog]

• US REP Seth Moulton has entered the Democratic field bringing the total to 19: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/seth-moulton-massachusetts-congressman-and-iraq-war-vet-jumps-into-2020-presidential-race. I say we put all of them in a room with the nomination tied at the top of a 8' rope. Whomever can climb up there an get it get's nominated!

Mexican soldiers have detained and disarmed two US Soldiers on the US side of the border. Technically an act of war. Of course it was a mistake on Mexico's part. But hey, it's not like there is a huge river marking the border or something. Oh... wait... https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/mexican-troops-drew-weapons-on-american-soldiers-on-u-s-side-of-the-border

Apparently even entering Thailand's waters illegally is punishable by death: https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/19/asia/thai-sea-home-us-bitcoin-trader-scli-intl/index.html  Waiting for the Democrats to protest this draconian immigration policy... still waiting...

I think this is awesome: https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-met-second-amendment-sanctuary-county-movement-illinois-20190416-story.html. Sanctuary cities for illegals, guns, pot, whatever, I'm in favor of all of it. The goddamned governments in this f-----g country are out of control. Defiance should be applauded. 

[BruceVC]

 

• US REP Seth Moulton has entered the Democratic field bringing the total to 19: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/seth-moulton-massachusetts-congressman-and-iraq-war-vet-jumps-into-2020-presidential-race. I say we put all of them in a room with the nomination tied at the top of a 8' rope. Whomever can climb up there an get it get's nominated!
• Mexican soldiers have detained and disarmed two US Soldiers on the US side of the border. Technically an act of war. Of course it was a mistake on Mexico's part. But hey, it's not like there is a huge river marking the border or something. Oh... wait... https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/mexican-troops-drew-weapons-on-american-soldiers-on-u-s-side-of-the-border
• Apparently even entering Thailand's waters illegally is punishable by death: https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/19/asia/thai-sea-home-us-bitcoin-trader-scli-intl/index.html  Waiting for the Democrats to protest this draconian immigration policy... still waiting...
• I think this is awesome: https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-met-second-amendment-sanctuary-county-movement-illinois-20190416-story.html. Sanctuary cities for illegals, guns, pot, whatever, I'm in favor of all of it. The goddamned governments in this f-----g country are out of control. Defiance should be applauded. 

 

Interesting post, I appreciate you posting the links so I can read them and do my own research if necessary