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Deadfire polishing thread

polishing balance bugs

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#181
Boeroer

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I would have had ~15% more crits (i.e. n = 5% of my total hits was roughly 17% of my total crits, rounded down because I had already had UL for a bit).


Math suggests that this is nigh impossible. First of all you are not converting all your attack rolls to crits but only hits. The higher the ACC the less hits, the more natural crits, the less overall conversion. Same when ACC is too low. That's 5% of an already smallish amount of attack rolls.
Secondly it doesn't stack additively. Since it's a PL5 ability it's likely that you already have some sort of crit conversion. Let's say you are a Shwashbucker looking for crits. You have Dirty Fighting and Disciplined Barrage and now want to add 5% with Uncanny Luck. This means your overall crit conversion raises from ~33% to ~36%. If we take the "normal" crit dmg modifier and pretend that 50% of your attack rolls are hits then this is an increase of a whopping additive 0.4%. Even in the best case, like +150% crit damage (Devoted + Streetfighter on the edge), only Uncannny Luck as conversion source and 100% hits (ridiculous, but just for the laugh of it) you will increase your dps by 7.5%. Besides the potential for removing underpenetration and the possibility of overpenetration. Still laughable. Do you guys really think this is worth a whole ability point even with the added resistance?

 

Then there is the duality of the ability. It caters either towards tanks (resistance) or dps characters (crit conversion). If you are desperately looking for ways to prevent damage then you usually don't need the crit conversion that much and vice versa. I would be ok with two abilites: one +10% crit conversion and another with 10% resistance. This should be balanced in regard to the actual Uncanny Luck, wouldn't it. 1 point for 10%. Funnily though: I presume most people would be more tempted to use one of them as they would be to pick Uncanny Luck. Why do you think is that? :)

 

And last but not least this ability is universal. You can't judge it after doing one test run with one special build. Even if you logged everthing properly and had verified data.
 

i mean seriously though at high levels what are you going to use those points on? another ability you won't use due to action economy or resource constraints? e.g. for a rogue i wouldn't pick it over dirty fighting, but i'd definitely use it with dirty fighting.

You know I don't want to sound spiky - but you seriously think that "there's nothing good to pick anyways so we might as well give the player something bad" is an argument against boosting Uncanny Luck a bit?
If you take it with Dirty Fighting you will increase your dps by a laughable margin (if dps is what you were looking for - if you take it for the resistance then ok). It is def. not worth an ability point if you're out for damage. Even Tough may have the potential to improve your dps more - because if you going down a bit later and landing a couple more hits before going down. Heck, Fast Runner will do more dps for you. 

 

 


We'd lose the tiny D&D reference!

Hehe, that's actually a point for my case. ;)


Edited by Boeroer, Yesterday, 11:07 PM.

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#182
thelee

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You know I don't want to sound spiky - but you seriously think that "there's nothing good to pick anyways so we might as well give the player something bad" is an argument against boosting Uncanny Luck a bit?
If you take it with Dirty Fighting you will increase your dps by a laughable margin (if dps is what you were looking for - if you take it for the resistance then ok). It is def. not worth an ability point if you're out for damage. Even Tough may have the potential to improve your dps more - because if you going down a bit later and landing a couple more hits before going down. Heck, Fast Runner will do more dps for you.


That's not quite the argument that I'm making, though it is roughly similar, if a bit "spiky".

 

By the nature of the game, you are weighted towards passives the further along you go, simply because of action economy and resource constraints. If you pick every active ability or spell, congrats, you wasted like half your ability points on stuff you will almost never use.

 

Because of this, and because (relatively unconditional) damage boosts are generally rare, there's not actually a very high bar for a damage booster to be "relevant," which is why I don't really see the need to boost e.g. improved critical either. And again, the fact that this is a generic talent is relevant. A boost in Uncanny Luck essentially represents a global power creep and it ever-so-slightly crowds out class or subclass specific characteristics. One ability not much, but from a systematic perspective, it seems like you'd have to have an extremely good reason to permit any given creep, because then it makes it easier to justify the next creep, and then the next, until it's really optimal to mostly just be taking generic talents. Uncanny Luck is not an auto-pick, but at least in my calculation it's also not a trap pick, it's more of an accent or niche pick. As a general talent, I think that's OK. 

 

And I think you're being a little bit disingenuous with your arguments. Tough, for example, will literally accomplish nothing for dps if you don't need the extra health (though I have taken Tough for offense in streetfighter or other low health builds). Fast Runner may or may not provide a significant dps boost for you, but it depends on the general mobility of the character. And I mean, yes I would and have happily taken Fast Runner in various builds. And again, Uncanny Luck is both a defensive and offensive pick (stronger defensive) which gives it a special significance. I would consider Spell Resistance more of a niche pick than Uncanny Luck even from a defensive angle, simply because of how heavily the game favors offense.


Edited by thelee, Today, 02:07 AM.


#183
thelee

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I would be ok with two abilites: one +10% crit conversion and another with 10% resistance. This should be balanced in regard to the actual Uncanny Luck, wouldn't it. 1 point for 10%. Funnily though: I presume most people would be more tempted to use one of them as they would be to pick Uncanny Luck. Why do you think is that?


Because that would be unbalanced compared to existing talents and is not even comparable.

You've basically given everyone blanket copy of Dirty Fighting, and you've created an unconditional version of Spell Resistance.

Also any individual increasing resistance bonus is increasing returns, so 10% resistance is much better than simply 2x 5% resistance.

It's not a great argument you made here. Taken to an absurd level: one talent that increases damage by 50% and one talent that increase resistance by 50%, but each talent costs 5 ability points. I would still happily save up 5 ability points to take one or the other. Even if the "average" cost would be comparable to uncanny luck, you have to pay more attention than just to the average but also to the actual nature of the distribution: 50% is just extremely good unconditional damage bonus, unmatched anywhere else. This isn't exactly statistics 101, but it is simple statistics, maybe statistics 102. (There's also the joke about the statistician who drowned while trying to cross a river that was only on average 3 feet deep.)


Edited by thelee, Today, 02:15 AM.


#184
Phenomenum

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Interesting reading. But the main problem - and this is true for all of us - all arguments based entirely on one's own limited perspective and playstyle. But @Thelee, you pushing too hard - when i'm reading you, it seems like you consider your own opinion "the one and only' true correct, blaming another people for "not looking from perspective" and so on.

 

Maybe i'm too blunt (becose of my russian mentality), but you acting like you are smarter than other of us. I don't appreciate this approach. At the end, there's only small 0.0001% chance that Obsidian will implement at least some of our suggestions and we forced to mod what we can, on our own. And you know who will be do this? Max, i, maube someone else. For now, you just sittin' in your chair and givin' your smart and "objective" hints and tips left and right.

 

We have a poll. Each of us will vote, and based of it's results we (or Obsidian, god know) can make some changes.

 

- with regards.


Edited by Phenomenum, Today, 02:46 AM.


#185
Boeroer

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It's not a great argument you made here.

That may be. But I think we can agree that we can't always put out superreasonable arguments - as seen a few posts ago. ;)

 

It's just an additional argument, even if it's a weak one. It sure is a reason for people to not take Uncanny Luck. Most party builds are not hybrid tank/dps builds that would be longing for both bonuses. Thus one half of the ability will feel like a waste. I would also be happy with two 8%/8% abilites instead of Uncanny Luck. 

 

Again: if an ability will not get picked by at least some people (who understand how it works) then that's a strong hint that it is not worth the ability point. I don't care that much if this gets increased to 8% or 10% or just left at 5% - but to me it's very obvious that 5% crit conversion at PL 5 is as good as nothing. I gave some numbers. If you'd had an ability that would give you an unconditional +0.4% or 0.5 or even 1% additive dmg bonus you would rub your eyes and ask yourself if the devs drank too much nail polish when designing that one.

 

And talking about power creep once it goes up from 5% to 8% or 10% - I mean come on. If you look at the avererage effect this has this is not even noticable. It's more like a cosmetic change.  I thought 8% was nice because it's less than Dirty Fighting but souds a bit better than 5% (because Exalted Focus does the same in a huge AoE at lower PLs).


Edited by Boeroer, Today, 03:05 AM.


#186
thelee

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Maybe i'm too blunt (becose of my russian mentality), but you acting like you are smarter than other of us. I don't appreciate this approach. At the end, there's only small 0.0001% chance that Obsidian will implement at least some of our suggestions and we forced to mod what we can, on our own. And you know who will be do this? Max, i, maube someone else. For now, you just sittin' in your chair and givin' your smart and "objective" hints and tips left and right.

 
Maybe it's cultural difference or whatnot, but I'm truly not trying to act like I'm smarter than anyone and if I seem condescending, sorry I'm not trying to be condescending. I'm putting forth my best arguments, and I expect others to do the same as well. In the process I learn from what other people have to say, and I hope that maybe others can learn from what i have to say as well. "Ideas are the sparks of two swords clashing" or whatnot. I don't pretend to have a "truly objective" perspective, and everything I write should be seen from the perspective that I've laid out what I thought was pretty clearly throughout the course of this polish thread (which is generally skeptical of anything outside pure bugfix mods--I'm mostly interested in better realizing the vanilla vision of what the game designers intended by focusing on developer/designer intent, rather than coming up with a bunch of "house rules"... I was that kind of DM).
 

And talking about power creep once it goes up from 5% to 8% or 10% - I mean come on. If you look at the avererage effect this has this is not even noticable. It's more like a cosmetic change.  I thought 8% was nice because it's less than Dirty Fighting but souds a bit better than 5% (because Exalted Focus does the same in a huge AoE at lower PLs).

 
Even minor cosmetic changes are not very justifiable to me personally, because they don't serve to me as a good case of distilling what that original design intention was, especially if it involves creep. (I've mentioned in other threads--not that I expect people to follow my posting history--that extended play experiences in games like e.g. Diablo 2/3 have really scarred me about out-of-control power levels [even if it occurs incrementally over many patches], enough to make me fairly absolutist about it.) So for me to get on board with increases in power level of anything I feel like it really has to be justified. A minor bump up to 8% hit-to-crit does not strike as a particularly justified increase.
 
edit - anyway, philosophizing aside,
 

If you'd had an ability that would give you an unconditional +0.4% or 0.5 or even 1% additive dmg bonus you would rub your eyes and ask yourself if the devs drank too much nail polish when designing that one.
<snip>
I thought 8% was nice because it's less than Dirty Fighting but souds a bit better than 5% (because Exalted Focus does the same in a huge AoE at lower PLs).


like I said, I think there's a *low* bar, not that there's *no* bar for an unconditional damage increase.

i also really want to re-emphasize the distinction between generic and class-specific abilities and how comparing them as a justification is not really as meaningful as one would think (relatedly it is my personal pet peeve when in any RPG people complain about a class not doing X as well as another class... well they shouldn't do X as well as the other class, it's not their role!).

to use the paladin comparison example, if there was a generic talent that gave you +1 AR, hopefully we could all agree that that would be potentially extremely good---but it's much worse than AL2 paladin aura that gives everyone +1 AR (not to mention potential health regen)! Or similarly a generic passive that gave you +5 accuracy. I'm pretty sure that would be an auto-pick for every single character I roll... but the AL2 zealous focus is just way better as well! so just because a paladin can do something better to more people at lower PLs is not a meaningful basis of comparison, because, well, this is what paladins are supposed to do better than anyone else.

edit 2 - this post was too rambly so i trimmed it down quite a bit.

Edited by thelee, Today, 04:21 AM.


#187
Waski

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My 5cents about crit, math, DPS and Uncanny Luck. There's plenty of weapons with desirable on crit effects and IMHO saying another 5% conversion it's just let's say +1% DPS across gameplay is a little bit of the mark. Not to mention whole AR/PEN situation. Sometimes on single class (martial) there is not much to pick and that's where I take Uncanny Luck.

#188
Boeroer

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But you don't consider that the crit conversion doesn't stack additively. If you get such a weapon/item your goal will be to stack ACC and conversions. Funnily though: the higher your ACC the less impact the conversion has. And the more conversions you stack the less impact every individual one has. And since Uncanny Luck is a very low conversion it has almost zero effect on such builds (which rely on crit effects). An unexperienced player might think that it does something for him - but in reality it does not. It is kind of a trap choice for a player who longs for crits. It is - especially with an item you describe and a build taylored to this - a very weak effect. Stuff like Disciplined Barrage is not only 5 times better. It's more than that - especially if you stack conversions because of the stacking mechanic. To achieve a 25% conversion (Disciplined Strikes) you would need to stack 6 Uncanny Lucks. To achieve the same with Uncanny Luck that you can achieve with Berserker Frenzy + Disciplined Strikes you'd need to pick 13(!) Uncanny Lucks. I'm not saying that it should be comparable - the one is passive and the others actives - I just want to show how badly it falls off once you start to cumulate ACC and conversions.

 

A bit better numbers on that PL5(!) ability would not hurt anybody and lift this talent from rubbish to maybe somewhat useful. At least it will have more appeal without being a complete trap for crit-gluttons.

 

I'm not set on this change. I can totally do without. I just want people to understand why it's not a good pick in most cases. It's just a bad ability.

Tough is also bad by the way. Why does the +2 health per level not get applied to the base health (as it sounds - and thus profits from CON bonus or malus) but simply adds a flat bonus like an amulet of health (even less at most times)?

 

Power creep can be avoided if we tune down the abilites which are too powerful. There are enough of that. See Resonant Touch, Blade Turning etc.


Edited by Boeroer, Today, 04:41 AM.






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    thelee