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1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

I don't think Carnage is tagged as weapon or melee so it shouldn't have that many interactions.

Afaik the current Carnage is a spell-like effect that's neither melee nor weapon. Else it would work with stuff like Lightning Strikes, Sneak Attack or Turning Wheel etc. So I don't think that Slayer's Claw would have no effect (unless it also procs on spell-hits or -crits like Blood Frenzy or Spirit Frenzy do).

 

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1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

Crushing Blow

  • No recovery

Note that instant damage ability spamming is already in the barbarian Portfolio thanks to Spirit Tornado.
I'm not 100% sure that is not OP, but I think this may lead to interesting combo such as Black Jacket's instant debuffing.

 

Barbaric Smash

  • +2 Rage on Kill
  • X2 Carnage damages

So in case of Overkill, you still get a benefit from using the ability.

Crushing Blow: What if it kils target? Stacks with Blood Thirst for 2 no recovery attacks, or not?

Barbaric Smash: Which hit roll is first, Carnage or BS? If BS won't kill target, but Carnage will, Rage isn't refunded?

Edited by Powerotti
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26 minutes ago, Powerotti said:

I didn't mean PoE carnage mechanic with proc on hit/crit. It was just about visible  AoE

Ahhhhha! Now that makes sense. :)

I'm all for visible Carnage AoE. 👍

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Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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16 minutes ago, Powerotti said:

Barbaric Smash: Which hit roll is first, Carnage or BS? If BS won't kill target, but Carnage will, Rage isn't refunded?

Carnage rolls are executed with a small delay after the initial hit roll. 

Carnahe kills also trigger Blood Thirst by the way. 

Afaik multiple "0 recovery for next attack" events don't stack up. It's just your next recoery that's 0 and that's it, isn't it? At least I tried Crushing Blow + Blood Thirst some time ago and that was the result. 

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3 hours ago, Powerotti said:

Crushing Blow: What if it kils target? Stacks with Blood Thirst for 2 no recovery attacks, or not?

I think yes. Blood Thirst has a duration, can stack a couple of charges and is cumulative with similar effect afaik. I will have to check if this concept design works correctly in game.

Quote

Barbaric Smash: Which hit roll is first, Carnage or BS? If BS won't kill target, but Carnage will, Rage isn't refunded?

Barbaric Smath On Kill refund works only on main hit afaik, Carnage don't trigger refund.
Unless you use AoE weapons, Carnage won't hit you main target anyway.
Your question is valid in this case, though. So Boeroer clarification is good to know.

3 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Ahhhhha! Now that makes sense. :)

I'm all for visible Carnage AoE. 👍

OK, not 100% sure it's easy to do but can try anyway.
I think Clear Out & upgrades have a similar problem too, so I'll put both of them on my list.

Edited by Elric Galad
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20 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Afaik multiple "0 recovery for next attack" events don't stack up.

If they don't, that should be changed, i think. This way both abilities (Crushing Blow and Blood Thirst) would be useful in their own conditions. We shouldn't make one of them useless, when these conditions will happen at once.

Barbaric Smash - I don't like, that BS is worth to use only against enemies, that are almost dead already. And again it gets mixed up with Blood Thirst, because has the same condition, and you are rewarded two times for one event (and there is Blood Surge - third on-kill effect that i would change). BS amplifying Carnage is good in some way, but i think there is another. Make it useful against enemies in every state of health, but with smaller refund. E.g. refund 1 Rage if you reduce enemy health by a tier instead of on kill (full - wounded - bloodied - near dead). Is it technically possible?

 

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42 minutes ago, Powerotti said:

If they don't, that should be changed, i think. This way both abilities (Crushing Blow and Blood Thirst) would be useful in their own conditions. We shouldn't make one of them useless, when these conditions will happen at once.

Well, I think it works. However, if they don't, it might not be the easiest change to implement.

They would only apply at the same time if you get a kill with Crushing Blow. If you get a kill without it or if you use it without a kill, only 1 applies so they would not apply together that often.

Quote

Barbaric Smash - I don't like, that BS is worth to use only against enemies, that are almost dead already. And again it gets mixed up with Blood Thirst, because has the same condition, and you are rewarded two times for one event (and there is Blood Surge - third on-kill effect that i would change). BS amplifying Carnage is good in some way, but i think there is another. Make it useful against enemies in every state of health, but with smaller refund. E.g. refund 1 Rage if you reduce enemy health by a tier instead of on kill (full - wounded - bloodied - near dead). Is it technically possible?

 

 

I agree with your point but I wanted to keep something close from the current effect.

Sorry if I didn't answer the first Time you suggested about health tier, but I didn't think it was technically possible. It might be. I can't claim full knowledge of gamedata files. It would surely be complicated to implement.

What could work is a partial refund versus bloodied or near death target (state at the beginning of the attack) This would be arguably inferior to Crushing Blow skipping recovery IMHO.

Edited by Elric Galad
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3 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Afaik the current Carnage is a spell-like effect that's neither melee nor weapon. Else it would work with stuff like Lightning Strikes, Sneak Attack or Turning Wheel etc. So I don't think that Slayer's Claw would have no effect (unless it also procs on spell-hits or -crits like Blood Frenzy or Spirit Frenzy do).

 

Energized procs on every Crit, it is not weapon only.

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I tested blood thirst and crushing blow and it appears to work very... weird.

Used weapons: WotEP, Voidwheel

Enemies: cre_skeleton_easy, cre_dummy

Abilities: CB+BT, only BT, only CB

Installed mods: Community Patch, More AI Conditions, Enhanced User Interface, FG Soulbound Upgrade

 

1. Weirdest case first: 1skeleton, 1dummy, Voidsword, only BT - after killing skeleton there was 2! no recovery attacks vs dummy (looks like Blood Thirst is bugged and proc 2 no recovery attacks)

2. 3skeletons, 1dummy, WotEP, only BT - 3 skeletons killed with one auto blow, 2 no recovery attacks vs dummy (BT doesn't stack with itself, 2 attacks must be from bugged ability, if it would stack, should be 3 attacks)

3. 1skeleton, 1dummy, Void, only CB - skely killed, 1 no recovery attack vs dummy

4. 3skeletons, 1dummy, WotEP, only CB - 3 skeletons killed with one CB, 1 no recovery attack vs dummy (CB doesn't stack with itself)

5. 1skeleton, 1dummy, Void, CB+BT - killed skeleton with CB, BT ability triggered on character sheet, 2 no recovery attacks vs dummy (looks like it stack, but it's the same bug as above)

6. 3skeletons, 1dummy, WotEP, CB+BT - 3skeletons killed with one CB, BT ability triggered on character sheet, 2 no recovery attacks vs dummy (CB+BT won't stack with each other)

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Powerotti said:

I tested blood thirst and crushing blow and it appears to work very... weird.

Used weapons: WotEP, Voidwheel

Enemies: cre_skeleton_easy, cre_dummy

Abilities: CB+BT, only BT, only CB

Installed mods: Community Patch, More AI Conditions, Enhanced User Interface, FG Soulbound Upgrade

 

1. Weirdest case first: 1skeleton, 1dummy, Voidsword, only BT - after killing skeleton there was 2! no recovery attacks vs dummy (looks like Blood Thirst is bugged and proc 2 no recovery attacks)

2. 3skeletons, 1dummy, WotEP, only BT - 3 skeletons killed with one auto blow, 2 no recovery attacks vs dummy (BT doesn't stack with itself, 2 attacks must be from bugged ability, if it would stack, should be 3 attacks)

3. 1skeleton, 1dummy, Void, only CB - skely killed, 1 no recovery attack vs dummy

4. 3skeletons, 1dummy, WotEP, only CB - 3 skeletons killed with one CB, 1 no recovery attack vs dummy (CB doesn't stack with itself)

5. 1skeleton, 1dummy, Void, CB+BT - killed skeleton with CB, BT ability triggered on character sheet, 2 no recovery attacks vs dummy (looks like it stack, but it's the same bug as above)

6. 3skeletons, 1dummy, WotEP, CB+BT - 3skeletons killed with one CB, BT ability triggered on character sheet, 2 no recovery attacks vs dummy (CB+BT won't stack with each other)

 

 

So BT adds 2 charges, CB adds 1, and they don't stack.

That makes current CB completely useless if one has BT (which most barbarians should take if able - Tier VII are limited for Multiclass).
That would make my change useless on kill but still better on other blows.

Just had a look at the code. Both trigger 2 effects called "RecoveryTimeMultiplier" and "NegateNextRecovery". I suppose for some reasons (resolution priority ?) BT apply both and negates 2 recovery while crushing blow can apply only one (most likely because attack is still in progress while "RecoveryTimeMultiplier"  is applied ?)

I'll have a look at this. Maybe some fix is possible, maybe not. Maybe the easiest fix is to add "BT has a chance to negates 2 recoveries" to the ability text ahah !

Thank you for your testing.

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3 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Just had a look at the code. Both trigger 2 effects called "RecoveryTimeMultiplier" and "NegateNextRecovery". I suppose for some reasons (resolution priority ?) BT apply both and negates 2 recovery while crushing blow can apply only one (most likely because attack is still in progress while "RecoveryTimeMultiplier"  is applied ?)

This coud be it. BT gives you effect on the character sheet, that disappears after first no recovery hit, and then comes second. CB doesn't give any visible buff

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9 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

That makes current CB completely useless if one has BT (which most barbarians should take if able - Tier VII are limited for Multiclass).

just here to chime in and say that this is the case. i thought they stacked in my last run, and ended up respeccing out of CB once I realized I wasn't getting stacking benefits. poor barbarians 😢

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Just now, Powerotti said:

This coud be it. BT gives you effect on the character sheet, that disappears after first no recovery hit, and then comes second. CB doesn't give any visible buff

Both have 2 effects, but CB version of NegateNextRecovery has no duration.

RecoveryTimeMultiplier might have to be removed from BT to reduce the number of Recovery to 1.

With a little luck it might cause them to stack since they would use different effects..

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1 minute ago, thelee said:

just here to chime in and say that this is the case. i thought they stacked in my last run, and ended up respeccing out of CB once I realized I wasn't getting stacking benefits. poor barbarians 😢

Well, BT triggering twice doesn't exactly make them poor.

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2 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Well, BT triggering twice doesn't exactly make them poor.

mostly just how one of their three main offensive abilities (in addition to frenzy and shouts) is expensive, underwhelming, and one of the upgrades is obsoleted by something even multi-class barbarians can pickup.

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8 minutes ago, thelee said:

mostly just how one of their three main offensive abilities (in addition to frenzy and shouts) is expensive, underwhelming, and one of the upgrades is obsoleted by something even multi-class barbarians can pickup.

Jesus Eothas was in front of an adulterous woman going to be stonned.

"Let anyone among you who is from a class without sh*tty ability be the first to throw a stone at her."

Then a Monk threw the first stone.

Edited by Elric Galad
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I'd say give CB -50% or -75% recovery for x seconds (3 base maybe?) and give BS refund on crit like Stunning Surge or make it 1 Rage instead of 2.

 

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9 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Jesus Eothas was in front of an adulterous woman going to be stonned.

"Let anyone among you who is from a class without sh*tty ability be the first to throw a stone at her."

Then a Monk threw the first stone.

With Thunderous Blows, Stunning Surge + Lightning Strikes I bet... 😄

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1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

I'd say give CB -50% or -75% recovery for x seconds (3 base maybe?)

 

But I really love the idea of an attack ability with 0 recovery 🙂

Minus recovery would also have non-stacking issues with various abilities anyway.

But if I don't manage to fix BT, I will think about your suggestion. 3s would be abusable with Salvation of Time, but I plan to rework it too, so...

Quote

 

 

and give BS refund on crit like Stunning Surge or make it 1 Rage instead of 2.

 

I've thought about giving BS refund on Crit, but it would make it too similar to Gambit.

1 Rage BS would be okay, but feel a bit plain. Still, it's most likely what people would like, a simple spammable barb attack. So it worths considering.

Edited by Elric Galad
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8 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Minus recovery would also have non-stacking issues with various abilities anyway.

Recovery reduction always stacks afaik. Just not additively. But 75% is close to 80% and you know how fast 80% is if you look at an attack made from stealth. 

I only didn't say 0 recovery for x secs because I wanted it to stack at least a bit with Blood Thirst (if you kill with CB).

Salvation of Time is a problem though, touché. :)

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On ‎1‎/‎30‎/‎2020 at 6:17 AM, Boeroer said:

Recovery reduction always stacks afaik. Just not additively. But 75% is close to 80% and you know how fast 80% is if you look at an attack made from stealth. 

I only didn't say 0 recovery for x secs because I wanted it to stack at least a bit with Blood Thirst (if you kill with CB).

Salvation of Time is a problem though, touché. :)

As I said, I plan to tweak Salvation of Time to make it as lasting buff that halves the speed for Buff ellapsing for its duration.
The idea is to cap Salvation of Time for a given buff to a x2 and prevent the stackability of the current version.
It's not even a pure nerf since it will apply to buff cast after SoT and benefit from INT/PL.

But even with this (3s base + INT/PL) + (+3s if Ooblit is used) could be crazy strong. Reducing the duration would not work because one can still use Ooblit for a guaranteed "Blade Cascade".

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