Finally some sales evidence

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

Triple's reasons are a lot more reasonable, but you really wont know the main quest is lacklustre when you buy it so that's likely not a reason for people not to buy rather than people be dissapointed and perhaps not buy another Obs game later on.

 

First off, if u were involved in tslrcm, u have my thanks for that chief. i stanned kotor2 since release and im glad other people poured their time and efforts into polishing it for the wider audience it deserved.

 

point i was making was less to do with quality of main plot and characters - more that it dont give the fandom much to salivate over and get the word of mouth going. like atm, my twitter feed is bubbling up with kingmaker stuff - specifically pictures of peoples custom-drawn baronesses and dreamy tristian. theyve been given a fantasy, and now theyre out there celebrating it and detailing it. other peeps are likely to see this and think 'oooh, i want in on that action'

 

obs dont like throwing people those kinds of bones. they provided a bit of oestrogen bait in aloth and tekehu, but generally they dont do that, and theyve *long* had a reputation for not doing that. they dont give the fandom inclined warm feels and really lovable characters to bond over. they dont give streamers and youtubers epic moments. they dont give circles of friends multiplayer moments to bond over.

 

for better or worse, they want to be craftsmen not entertainers. that inclinations not only come home to roost, its grown fat and settled.

 

The one thing you guys need to understand is is that I criticize Obsidian alot because they crushed my dreams of Pillars of eternity 2 being becoming the new modern day Baldurs Gate 2.

 

well, kingmakers basically nwn3 if thats any consolation.

 

but the stuff about the game that peeps are now complaining about - obliqueness of system, reliance on prior knowledge of spells, certain items and spells to get through encounters - were rampant in bg2. other aspects of bg2 that got modernised *ahem sidekicks ahem* were met with a ton of complaints. bg2s absence of anything remotely resembling balance wouldnt survive a modern light. the forgotten realms' gleeful kitchen sink approach - which imo was the cornerstone of bg2s appeal - would also get ripped to shreds by people who now want something a tad more mature and coherent.

 

and the bg2 critical path would get shat on now. even back in the day i remember posts on forums. 'why should we rescue imoen, why should we rescue imoen' x 421204. also most people just pottered around cleaning up *every* sidequest before thinking maybe we should stop this irenicus fellow - yadda yadda sense of urgency.

 

bg2 papered over the cracks in its system via rest spamming, and i dont think we like rest spamming anymore. - oh man lets spend six months in the underdark sleeping 15 hours before every encounter. none of that bothered *me* then, and it doesnt bother me now, but a modern implementation would spawn a 17 page thread on some forum about it before too long.

 

the market for these kinds of rpgs is getting older. people who were teenagers when bg dropped are in their mid thirties now. bg's enthusiastic pulpiness just wont strike the same chords any more. like, i still appreciate and enjoy bg now, but for very different reasons. that games time has come and gone. its last big equivalent was probably DA:O. honestly, kingmakers prob as close as ull get to that sort of thing now and... ye, im enjoying it but it aint half getting some backlash from certain quarters.

 

like it just occurs to me now that bg2 was bioware. like obsidian/black isles style has never been biowares - even when using the same engine. id only expect them to cleave so close to it. if u want updated bg2, i dont think obs are the people to do it. even poe1 didnt feel like bg, it felt more like black isles infinity engine games. deadfire feels more like fantasy new vegas than bg2, which is to be expected considering sawyer made the former and not the latter.

[grasida]

I really prefer to be given new mechanics in a sequel, to the point that I’m quite disappointed if a game plays too similarly to its predecessor. I know some people can be really put off by big changes, but I don’t think they were significant enough in the transition from PoE to Deadfire to result in such a big drop in sales. I doubt that a very large portion of those who bought PoE didn’t by Deadfire because of a deep attachment to the first game’s combat mechanics.

 

If I had to guess at a list of reasons for Deadfire’s poor performance it would be:

 

1) PoE enjoyed significant success based on its position as a successor to the infinity engine classics. But, aside from a small group, most potential customers were satisfied with one nostalgia purchase. Deadfire continued to aim for that nostalgia, but missed because it couldn’t succeed in convincing people to buy it on it’s own merits.

 

2) One of the primary appeal of RPGs is the power fantasy, and Deadfire minimizes that or even strips it away, starting right from the beginning of the game.

 

3) Deadfire demands too much for the average player. It’s not a game you can just “pick up”. Pillars was somewhat similar, but Deadfire demands much more. While Pillars had lots of jaw-cracking Welsh words, Deadfire keeps those and adds a very unfamiliar setting with even more “foreign” names and concepts. On top of that, the game adds multiclassing, subclasses, lots of skills, and AI scripting. The switch to per encounter means you are pressured to make a lot more decisions for each character per each fight, and I doubt the AI scripting was seen as a mitigating factor for that by the vast majority of potential players. I really respect the developers for writing the game in such a novel setting. Although I think it’s a little weird to see a Polynesian setting written, modeled and voiced almost entirely by people of European descent. I would have prefered a subversive take on a traditional European setting, which Aedyr, for example, seems perfectly set up to do.

 

4) The game has crunchy combat and deep class mechanics, but the exploration and narrative often conflict with the combat. See the complaints about lack of dungeon crawls, the lack of attrition and the trivial nature of resting as an example. The game targeted two audiences, the one that cares more about gameplay, combat and mechanics, and the one that cares about narrative and explanation, but it missed both of them. The narrative felt clunky and poorly integrated into the gameplay for people who wanted combat, and the depth of the combat and character build decisions got in the way of exploration and narrative for people who cared more about that.

 

I love Deadfire and think it’s an improvement on Pillars in almost every way. And I won’t be surprised at all if it’s much better loved 5-10 years from now than it is today. But I think it’s clear Obsidian tried to do too much with it and ended up with a lack of focus. My personal dream is a smaller scale, more combat and gameplay focused RPG from Obsidian like Icewind Dale (preferably turn-based, though, or with heavy modifications to the real time with pause system) but with the acquisition by Microsoft that seems a little unlikely.

[xzar_monty]

 

Another might be disappointment with PoE for whatever reason.

 

I have said this before, but I think it's worth repeating: I believe this is the main reason for Deadfire's terrifying lack of success.

 

Generally in a commercial culture, if people have loved the previous thing (a movie, an album by a group [back when people bought albums], etc.), the next thing is very likely to succeed, simply because people are itching to get their hands to the next thing. Like Roger Waters once said, Pink Floyd could have released an album full of body noises after the Dark Side of the Moon, and its initial sales would have been colossal.

 

For whatever reason, PoE disappointed an awful lot of people. They didn't come back for Deadfire.

 

Also, kudos to you for even trying to argue with @bigbazoopa. Anyone writing with that much vitriol and in a style so blatantly offensive towards the people they are writing to is not worth responding to, in my view.

[Archaven]

In all honesty,I think all the skills and abilities are the same as in first Poe. They basically just combine 2 classes making it multi-class and nerf it.

 

The only thing new are the stories, settings, characters and pirate theme? heck even 3 characters are returning from first Poe. I thought their return has something related but I was wrong?

 

And to be fair what I hated most they tone down the females so much and there's no nudity at all except the bath house from top down. Not even sure the point what they are achieving.

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

For whatever reason, PoE disappointed an awful lot of people.

 

They promised nostalgia but thats at odds with obs established tendency towards subversion. for the nostalgia driven, poe was too wonky, for the obs/black isle fans wanting subversion, poe was too conservative.

 

think a lot of people wanted a bg revival made, but they either didnt realise - or didnt respect - that obs were never going to go in a straight line.

 

poe's fussy tension, compounded by sawyer's tendencies, really is a thing of very precise tastes. i love it personally. im finding the series endlessly fascinating and i can see myself replaying it for many years to come.

 

but unfortunately game is bloody-minded and strange without being outlandish enough to draw appreciation. its a hard sell outside of its strike zone.

 

 

 But I think it’s clear Obsidian tried to do too much with it and ended up with a lack of focus.

 

ye, i dont think u could accuse them of not trying hard enough. i think the main point where i thought 'jesus wept, u guys are making life hard for urselves' was the inter-companion relationship system. that must have been an absolute nightmare. relatively linear progression would have been so much easier.

 

tbh im not the biggest fan of 'influence' systems in general, and i think they can frustrate the capacity for antagonistic, yet close relationships. i feel DA2 actually made a step in the right direction with the 'rivalmance' option, but that got dropped and instead were kinda stuck with the 'behave like a psychopath to keep everyone happy' to this day.

 

sorry tangent tangent tangent.

 

deadfire is certainly the sprawl, where the devs tried everything at once - it can be a necessary, but frustrating, creative step - in pop album terms, we now need a 'scary monsters' where they consolidate everything.

[bugarup]

Wael knows we (the incarnations of bigbazoopa and me) had our quarrels, but I think once forum people bring up good arguments (form aside) it's worth discussing them.

I also don't believe in excluding people generally and completely out of animosity.

 

I don't hold grudges (I mean in these "forum cases"). For example I couldn't talk to Gromnir anymore if I'd close the door after clashing with him. Now that would be a shame, wouldn't it? Some of the people we clash with actually post very viable things.

 

 

What ever did Gromnir do to you to warrant a parallel to the Next Iteration? Gromnir usually brings interesting and varied stuff (and never breaks character!), while the Iteration does not even have a sound argument, it has a personal grudge that it repeats ad nauseam. QED (bolded by me): 

 

 

 

 

The one thing you guys need to understand is is that I criticize Obsidian alot because they crushed my dreams of Pillars of eternity 2 being becoming the new modern day Baldurs Gate 2.

 

This is the only reason i am so frustrated with them. They had the opportunity and they wasted it. Not only did they waste it but there narrative designer oversaw this whole debacle and let it continue. Im sorry but the story, writing and narrative was really really bad man and they weren't very creative with there content. In short I think Josh Sawyer was a really bad dungeon master. 

 

Alot of the critisism i get on these forums is from devoted obsidian fanbois. I now who you are and you will never listen to logic or reason if it portrays your beloved Obsidian in a negative light.

 

 

Dude. I noticed. I noticed after the first 10 times you wrote that. And that's exactly why I dismiss it -- you offer personal, emotional issues and assert those are objective arguments. Furthermore, you fault Obsidian for doing their own thing instead of Ctrl+C Ctrl+V, you claim that copypasta is objectively better than doing something new, and then in the very next paragraph you accuse them for not being very creative. Right after complaining about doing something new instead of rehashing decades old idol of yours. 

 

That's...well, technically criticism alright, but is not constructive or useful at all. It's a little like criticizing your new girlfriend for not looking and behaving exactly like your ex. 

[Verde]

 

 

There is a thread on the RPG codex site where people have confirmed that the staff at Obsidian who have "left" where in fact fired because Deadfire didnt make sales targets.

 

If you read through the thread you will also see numerous posts removed at the request of Obsidian's lawyers sending letters of demand to remove the posts.

 

Which thread would this actually be? Only thing I've heard is that the Director of Marketing was fired due to sales, this was a clause in his contract even.

I mean, given how relatively little buzz there has been about Deadfire, firing the director of marketing seems completely correct.

Agreed.

[bigbazoopa]

 

Wael knows we (the incarnations of bigbazoopa and me) had our quarrels, but I think once forum people bring up good arguments (form aside) it's worth discussing them.

I also don't believe in excluding people generally and completely out of animosity.

 

I don't hold grudges (I mean in these "forum cases"). For example I couldn't talk to Gromnir anymore if I'd close the door after clashing with him. Now that would be a shame, wouldn't it? Some of the people we clash with actually post very viable things.

 

 

What ever did Gromnir do to you to warrant a parallel to the Next Iteration? Gromnir usually brings interesting and varied stuff (and never breaks character!), while the Iteration does not even have a sound argument, it has a personal grudge that it repeats ad nauseam. QED (bolded by me): 

 

 

 

 

The one thing you guys need to understand is is that I criticize Obsidian alot because they crushed my dreams of Pillars of eternity 2 being becoming the new modern day Baldurs Gate 2.

 

This is the only reason i am so frustrated with them. They had the opportunity and they wasted it. Not only did they waste it but there narrative designer oversaw this whole debacle and let it continue. Im sorry but the story, writing and narrative was really really bad man and they weren't very creative with there content. In short I think Josh Sawyer was a really bad dungeon master. 

 

Alot of the critisism i get on these forums is from devoted obsidian fanbois. I now who you are and you will never listen to logic or reason if it portrays your beloved Obsidian in a negative light.

 

 

Dude. I noticed. I noticed after the first 10 times you wrote that. And that's exactly why I dismiss it -- you offer personal, emotional issues and assert those are objective arguments. Furthermore, you fault Obsidian for doing their own thing instead of Ctrl+C Ctrl+V, you claim that copypasta is objectively better than doing something new, and then in the very next paragraph you accuse them for not being very creative. Right after complaining about doing something new instead of rehashing decades old idol of yours. 

 

That's...well, technically criticism alright, but is not constructive or useful at all. It's a little like criticizing your new girlfriend for not looking and behaving exactly like your ex. 

 

 

 

No.

 

The entire gaming community agrees with me. Hence why Obsidian cant pay the bills and are going down the gurgler. The Fffd up POE2 Hard. 

 

Even in the face of these blatant facts you dismiss them because fanbois will never accept criticism off there heros. 

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

No.

 

The entire gaming community agrees with me. Hence why Obsidian cant pay the bills and are going down the gurgler. The Fffd up POE2 Hard. 

 

Even in the face of these blatant facts you dismiss them because fanbois will never accept criticism off there heros.

lmao this guys like dril. im enjoying this routine.

[xzar_monty]

It would still be a lot better simply not to respond. There's not going to be any dialogue or exchange of ideas. It's all insults.

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

ah sorry lads. ive gotten too used to winding folk up in mobas. ill behave myself.

[xzar_monty]

By the way, one additional thing just occurred to me: maybe the thing that ruined all possible success for Deadfire was the fact that PoE was so very rough when it came out. I mean, it took me months and months before I finally played through the game, because it just didn't seem like a good idea to even try earlier than that. Maybe an awful lot of people simply gave up on it?

 

They were charmed by the idea of another isometric CRPG, found out that it was a mess on release and forgot about it. Sounds plausible, but whether it's true I don't know.

[protopersona]

By the way, one additional thing just occurred to me: maybe the thing that ruined all possible success for Deadfire was the fact that PoE was so very rough when it came out. I mean, it took me months and months before I finally played through the game, because it just didn't seem like a good idea to even try earlier than that. Maybe an awful lot of people simply gave up on it?

 

They were charmed by the idea of another isometric CRPG, found out that it was a mess on release and forgot about it. Sounds plausible, but whether it's true I don't know.

So the Miyamoto explanation: "A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad."

[house2fly]

That perception won't have been helped by Deadfire also being a mess on release

 

In all honesty,I think all the skills and abilities are the same as in first Poe. They basically just combine 2 classes making it multi-class and nerf it.

 

The only thing new are the stories, settings, characters and pirate theme? heck even 3 characters are returning from first Poe. I thought their return has something related but I was wrong?

 

And to be fair what I hated most they tone down the females so much and there's no nudity at all except the bath house from top down. Not even sure the point what they are achieving.

uh, what you might be looking for is pornography.

[xzar_monty]

Ha, I also thought that a fellow (surely it cannot be a woman?) must be having a desperate life if nudity in a computer game is a factor.

[InsaneCommander]

Iterations... Maybe it's like the Watcher? Awakenings can cause madness...

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

By the way, one additional thing just occurred to me: maybe the thing that ruined all possible success for Deadfire was the fact that PoE was so very rough when it came out. I mean, it took me months and months before I finally played through the game, because it just didn't seem like a good idea to even try earlier than that. Maybe an awful lot of people simply gave up on it?

 

They were charmed by the idea of another isometric CRPG, found out that it was a mess on release and forgot about it. Sounds plausible, but whether it's true I don't know.

 

ye, this is true. like i think i dodged a bullet here. when poe1 dropped, i had a lot of irl stuff to deal with. it meant that i couldnt do more than potter about in it and rush tf out of the critical path. by the time i had the chance to do a proper playthrough, it think it was just before WM1. after *that* i didnt get back to the game properly until both expansions had dropped.

 

if id had time to engage while the game was still rough, maybe id be less charitable? who knows.

 

ive long long long been used to rpgs being wonky af when they drop. things are hella better now and have to meet higher standards i think, so people less forgiving. unfortunately devs still in adorable habit of trying to cram too much into one game in short space of time like always.

 

my favourite was when i bought outcast and the game *automatically uninstalled itself* upon installation - this was before universal broadband btw - that was a laugh riot. the list of showstoppers goes on and on. fml u should check out the original dungeon lords. i think for the 90s and early 00s rpg just meant *japanese whimsy or unplayable bugfest*

 

so now i think ive got the worst possible standards for game states at launch. lol. its prob for the best not everyones been vaccinated like i have.

[Boeroer]

What ever did Gromnir do to you to warrant a parallel to the Next Iteration?

Nothing basically. We clashed a bit and that's it. It was just an example (that some people may have witnessed and remember).

[Hassat Hunter]

PoE1 was a mess at release? I played it back then and while it definitely had issues (surely my bugreport thread on it lingers here somewhere) it was nowhere as bad as say D:OS1. And that mess got a ton of bugs sequel that also does very well.

 

So I don't think it's really the buginess fault. And all this WM talk reminds me how I loved WM1 as is on the difficulty I played the original, but WM2 shook the gameplay and balance up so much I couldn't be arsed learning the actual mess it became (IMO) and I just plowed through it auto-attack on the lowest difficulty since all the UI and balance and gameplay went straight to hell. Maybe I would have thought differently if I started post WM2, but that extremely jarring complete mechanics change? Yeah, not a fan. In the slightest.

 

 

But yeah, PoE2 has it's fair share of issues and my first run had so many broken quests, missing random encounters, missing bossfights and all that not-so-fun stuff.

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

Ha, I also thought that a fellow (surely it cannot be a woman?) must be having a desperate life if nudity in a computer game is a factor.

im actually a big fan of steamy time in games but i got vns for that. idea of obs having a proper crack at such makes me cringe. id trust them with romantic tragedy or comic thirst but not my libido.

 

That said. 'Pillar of liquidity' hahahahahaha

[thelee]

PoE1 was a mess at release? I played it back then and while it definitely had issues (surely my bugreport thread on it lingers here somewhere) it was nowhere as bad as say D:OS1. And that mess got a ton of bugs sequel that also does very well.

 

So I don't think it's really the buginess fault. And all this WM talk reminds me how I loved WM1 as is on the difficulty I played the original, but WM2 shook the gameplay and balance up so much I couldn't be arsed learning the actual mess it became (IMO) and I just plowed through it auto-attack on the lowest difficulty since all the UI and balance and gameplay went straight to hell. Maybe I would have thought differently if I started post WM2, but that extremely jarring complete mechanics change? Yeah, not a fan. In the slightest.

 

 

But yeah, PoE2 has it's fair share of issues and my first run had so many broken quests, missing random encounters, missing bossfights and all that not-so-fun stuff.

 

people hate bugs, but unless they are really bad they don't hurt too bad. F:NV was an incredibly buggy mess at release and I feel like the fan community puts it atop Bethesda's efforts (FO4 at the very least).

 

While my memory of it is a bit dim these days, I seem to recall PoE1 being quite buggy at release. Deadfire was definitely less buggy. I think a critical difference is that PoE1 felt a bit more mechanically stable, whereas Deadfire basically had a day-one nerf/balancing patch, and I feel like the first few patches were just trying to desperately rebalance the game. Anecdotally, before Deadfire I spent 90% of my forum posts just reporting bugs and the nature of bugs I report between PoE1 and Deadfire points into the direction where Deadfire is less overall broken and the stuff I want fixed is much lower priority cosmetic and oddities, instead of complete ability implementation misses and various forms of soft-locking the game (the most major of which at last check never truly got fixed).

Edited November 13, 2018 by thelee

[Frak]

 And I won’t be surprised at all if it’s much better loved 5-10 years from now than it is today. 

 

 

This be truth. This is destined. I don't know about bad sales, but I know quality. This game has it. It will have a glorious legacy. Hallelujah!

[Tarlonniel]

 

 And I won’t be surprised at all if it’s much better loved 5-10 years from now than it is today. 

 

This be truth. This is destined. I don't know about bad sales, but I know quality. This game has it. It will have a glorious legacy. Hallelujah!

 

Oh man, I'm going to have to keep my mods updated for years? I never signed up for that!

[Frak]

 

Oh man, I'm going to have to keep my mods updated for years? I never signed up for that!

 

 

Years? Who is talking about years? Haven't you heard the word decades? ;-)

[Cartoons Plural]

why do so many people think sales indicates that theres something wrong with the game?

 

also one of the most sacred cows of rpgs is final fantasy so this stuff about "traditional fantasy" not selling is a huge laugh tbh but it is why the western canon of the genre is so unimaginitive and dreary. i wish pillars didnt even have elves dwarves or any of that borrowed tolkien/norse lore im tired of it

 

the market suddenly got crowded since poe1 and critics and social media started a fashionable sneer about pausable real time a mechanic that ironicaly only exists because the fashionable sneer was against turn based in the 90s