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Hebruixe

Single-class casters should have access to all spells.

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That completely removes the point of grimoires for wizards and enables all 3 of those classes to load up on passives while other classes have to split their points between their active and passive abilities. Single classes already get 1 more ability point and 2 more power levels so it's not like they're significantly weaker.

 

Yeah but grimoires are pointless. Foced upon us by a dev at Obsidian who was upset that in Pillars 1 no one used them.

 

Now every class has magic (see that really long thread) and spells have become active abilities instead of spells wizards really are boring

 

I still don't, well almost never. Just like in PoE.

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Me neither, I use one book and stick to it.

 

what I dislike is that they shoe-horned spell casting in to this active /passive ability scheme meaning that spells are now abilities too and some useful "abilities" like arcane assault are gone - and now that spells are abilities Grimoire slam is now a spell. How is whacking someone with your spell book a spell?

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The fact you can't check what's in your grimoires while leveling up is the WORST. I somehow ALWAYS end up picking at least one spell during the tier unlocks that is already in Aloth's grimoire because I forgot to check before leveling him up and since they're new spell levels I haven't been using them in combat to potentially remember what he has that I haven't picked myself.

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Me neither, I use one book and stick to it.

 

what I dislike is that they shoe-horned spell casting in to this active /passive ability scheme meaning that spells are now abilities too and some useful "abilities" like arcane assault are gone - and now that spells are abilities Grimoire slam is now a spell. How is whacking someone with your spell book a spell?

And why does it have a freaking cast time

 

 

The fact you can't check what's in your grimoires while leveling up is the WORST. I somehow ALWAYS end up picking at least one spell during the tier unlocks that is already in Aloth's grimoire because I forgot to check before leveling him up and since they're new spell levels I haven't been using them in combat to potentially remember what he has that I haven't picked myself.

 

 

Just exit out of the levelup screen dude 

Edited by Myztik

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Me neither, I use one book and stick to it.

 

what I dislike is that they shoe-horned spell casting in to this active /passive ability scheme meaning that spells are now abilities too and some useful "abilities" like arcane assault are gone - and now that spells are abilities Grimoire slam is now a spell. How is whacking someone with your spell book a spell?

 

I was thinking like you, but in the end it's just a resource system. Having abilities & spells at same level isn't a big deal. They could even have reduced the number of spells and make them all usefull/interesting, because right now it's nice on skill tree to have plenty of spells but some can be percieved as traps/less efficient.

 

But there is few things that bother me too. I talk mostly of wizard because i'm more familiar with it :

 

- Actually the grimoire system encourage you too much to retrain because of overlaping spells. Since power level have a big influence on spell, they should make spell you selection in the skill tree have a +1PL bonus. That represent the fact your proeficient with them, more than a wizard that cast it through a grimoire. So grimoire offer verstility but a single class wizard could have more powerfull spells. If you really like a spell, just having the bonus can be interesting even if that overlap with your favorite spellbook.

 

- the passive selection of caster is really poor. Ok they have plenty active spell to choose, but each spell of same level compete each other for the 2 spellslots. could be great to play a more specialised spellcaster if you want. And for wizard you have grimoires. They could throw in some passive that affect caster gameplay instead of just buff and generic passives.

 

- Me too I hate how grimoire slam, arcane assault, arcane veil have been changed into spells. The complex way could be to introduce dual resources like the monk/chanter. You have another pool that build up as time pass, or when you cast spell, or that just work like martial classes (but lower pool) that you can use to cast non spell abilities. As you level up (PL change), you could choose some of your low level spells that could be cast with this secondary resource pool instead of taking some precious spell slots. You mastered those spells, they work like cantrips. Since low level spell have the most spells, that would give perhaps some new light/use to some of them.

Or old wizard abilities could be changed to per encounter use like in poe1. Arcane assault, grim slam, arcane veil... you can use them 1-2 time.

Edited by Takkik
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I love spells and I want all in all games.  :grin:

 

If we can't have all, so:

 

- one more point ability per level

 

or

 

- two free spells per level instead of one.

 

It's a simple way to get more for the magic lovers without drastic changes. :sorcerer:

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The fact you can't check what's in your grimoires while leveling up is the WORST. I somehow ALWAYS end up picking at least one spell during the tier unlocks that is already in Aloth's grimoire because I forgot to check before leveling him up and since they're new spell levels I haven't been using them in combat to potentially remember what he has that I haven't picked myself.

 

Just exit out of the levelup screen dude 

 

 

 

I used to leave the level up screen to check the grimoire every time. But now I just check a screenshot with alt-tab. Every time.

 

 

But there is few things that bother me too. I talk mostly of wizard because i'm more familiar with it :

 

- Actually the grimoire system encourage you too much to retrain because of overlaping spells. Since power level have a big influence on spell, they should make spell you selection in the skill tree have a +1PL bonus. That represent the fact your proeficient with them, more than a wizard that cast it through a grimoire. So grimoire offer verstility but a single class wizard could have more powerfull spells. If you really like a spell, just having the bonus can be interesting even if that overlap with your favorite spellbook.

 

This. I ended up choosing one grimoire for Fassina, the one with the minimum evocation/illusion spells (and with others that I liked) and if I change it I'll retrain her.

 

There should be a way to compensate learning a spell you already have in a grimoire. Maybe it could give you a bonus to power level or allow it to be cast without resource cost once in a battle.

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Limiting your spell selection doesn't really weaken casters or force them to specialize--there are only a few "must have" spells per level. What it does is discourage the player from trying inefficient or situational abilities and the strategies that can result from those.

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Me neither, I use one book and stick to it.

 

what I dislike is that they shoe-horned spell casting in to this active /passive ability scheme meaning that spells are now abilities too and some useful "abilities" like arcane assault are gone - and now that spells are abilities Grimoire slam is now a spell. How is whacking someone with your spell book a spell?

I cast...BOOK!  *the enemy didn't see it coming*

(though to be fair, grimoire slam is unleashing built-up magical energy in your book to hit the enemy backwards, not merely the book itself)

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It doesn't take a lot of brainpower to come up with solutions to these problems.

It takes a lot of time and balancing, almost every encounter in Deadfire would need to be redesigned to allow for spellcasters having access to all potential spells. This is in addition to Deadfire already needing to fix broken or weak options and make PotD more difficult.

1. Grimoires can change function. For example, put only unique spells (like Nannasin's Cobra Strike) in them. Wizards now have have a meaningful choice when it comes to grimoire selection, as it determines which unique spell(s) they gain access to.

That removes all but 6 grimoires from the game, which means that they would have to design many new spells to make a reason to use grimoires in the first place.

2. Limit the number of passives that can be chosen by Druid/Wizard/Priest so that their options fall in line with other classes.

Limited in what way? Giving them all their spells would be equivalent to over doubling the amount of ability points they have available to them if they didn't get passive abilities, with 1 passive ability poer power level in addition to knowing every spell single class casters would become superior to any other class in terms of versatility and power.

Let's give single-class casters access to their entire spell trees, like they deserve.

Why do they deserve them and why only those three classes? As it is, Priests and Druids already get 1 more active ability per level while Wizards get 2 per level they can change at any time.

 

 

1. You're making this up. Nothing needs to be rebalanced in reaction to what I suggested. The fights have already been designed with the knowledge that all possible spells, and any combination of them, can be used by the player. Because players can already do this in the current state of the game. The balancing factor (which is unaffected by my suggestion) is the fact that you only get 2 casts per level per encounter. Your claim that giving casters access to all their spells would somehow unbalalance things is false. 

 

2. If that means that only 6 grimoires remain in the game, then that's just fine. Grimoires will become highly coveted loot drops. They'll be special for once because they offer wizards unique spells that can't be learned upon levelup. I can see this only as a vast improvement over the current system where the grimoire is essentially just a crutch needed by a crippled class. Furthermore, I think it would be a good outcome if, as you implied, Obsidian had to develop more new unique spells to put in more grimoires.

 

3. Halve the number of ability points that Druids/Wizards/Priests get upon levelup. Or quarter it. I'm not sure what the exact "balanced" percentage should be, but I'm sure Obsidian can figure it out. Since Druids/Wizards/Priests will only get passives, they won't need as many ability points to spend. So they won't get as many. Simple.

 

4. I'm not opposed to the idea of giving all single-class characters, regardless of class, automatic access to all their abilities. I just felt that requesting that was a little too ambitious for this thread. If it was up to be I'd let single-class Rogues/Ciphers/Barbarians/Paladins/Fighters/Chanters/Monks/Rangers automatically gain all their active abilities instead of just Druids/Wizards/Priests. Because to me it seems that only multiclass characters should be required to choose a limited selection of abilities. Multiclass combinations need to be carefully balanced. But single-class characters shouldn't have to suffer the same penalties, restrictions, and limitations.

 

1. No I'm not, if three classes are changed from only having access to a few active abilities per power level to having access to every active ability per power level they need to redesign encounters with this massive improvement in versatility in mind. And again this is in addition to needing to fix the current balance issues present in the game.

2. Then they have to remove almost every existing grimoire or design many new spells to suit this, which takes time away from creating other content such as new abilities for everyone or new **** to do in the game.

3. And now you've introduced complication on top of the currently existing balance issues that will take several iterations to get right and countless ruined builds in the process. Given how many have, rightfully, gotten pissed at the recent nerfs in 1.1 seeing their Wizard lose half of passive abilities will send them into a massive rage.

4. Multiclass combinations are better balanced within the existing framework, such as making almost every ability influenced by power level. Of the three classes you've advocated for only Priest seems to be lagging behind and that seems to be more of an issue regarding their less than impressive healing capabilities relative to other support classes. Single-class Wizards and Druids seem to be doing pretty good, which happens to coincide with Power Level effecting most of their spells and thus making having a high PL worthwhile.

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Why not, but could be really op for highter spells. I prefer a passive that allow +1cast for lower level. But, selecting a spell could give you a +1 power level to this spell to represent the fact you're specialised.

 

Something like this ?

- PL 3, Bonus 1-3 level spells: One additional cast for level 1-3 spells.

- PL 5, Bonus 4+5 level spells: One additional cast for level 4+5 spells. Requires prior talent.

- PL 7, Bonus 6+7 level spells: One additional cast for level 6+7 spells. Requires prior talent.

- PL 9, Bonus 8+9 level spells: One additional cast for level 8+9 spells. Requires prior talent.

 

POE game mechanics are over-complicated in general. Does your proposal sounds like relief?

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Why not, but could be really op for highter spells. I prefer a passive that allow +1cast for lower level. But, selecting a spell could give you a +1 power level to this spell to represent the fact you're specialised.

 

Something like this ?

- PL 3, Bonus 1-3 level spells: One additional cast for level 1-3 spells.

- PL 5, Bonus 4+5 level spells: One additional cast for level 4+5 spells. Requires prior talent.

- PL 7, Bonus 6+7 level spells: One additional cast for level 6+7 spells. Requires prior talent.

- PL 9, Bonus 8+9 level spells: One additional cast for level 8+9 spells. Requires prior talent.

 

POE game mechanics are over-complicated in general. Does your proposal sounds like relief?

 

POE system overcomplicated? I don't think so. We are far from a system like path of exile. It's pretty streamlined. The only problem of poe since the first game : is obscured game systems/rules, like stacking, dmg calculation etc... that sometimes don't act like you think, that dev can just completly change in a patch or the horrible tooltip that is most of the time inaccurate/outdated.

The player lack thrustworthy informations on how the system work. But the system itself is not that complicated.

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Why not, but could be really op for highter spells. I prefer a passive that allow +1cast for lower level. But, selecting a spell could give you a +1 power level to this spell to represent the fact you're specialised.

 

Something like this ?

- PL 3, Bonus 1-3 level spells: One additional cast for level 1-3 spells.

- PL 5, Bonus 4+5 level spells: One additional cast for level 4+5 spells. Requires prior talent.

- PL 7, Bonus 6+7 level spells: One additional cast for level 6+7 spells. Requires prior talent.

- PL 9, Bonus 8+9 level spells: One additional cast for level 8+9 spells. Requires prior talent.

 

POE game mechanics are over-complicated in general. Does your proposal sounds like relief?

 

 

I actually liked the original PoE mechanics for Wizards:

- all spells availiable, spell selection with grimoires

- up to 4 casts per spell level, one bonus spell per level from passives

- reaching higher levels slowly switched casts to per encounter

 

It gave a meaningful progression to casters.

 

Deadfire does not have a progression at all:

- a level 1 Deadfire Wizard has 2x casts for level one spells, same as a level 20 Wizard

- a level 9 PoE Wizard has the same casts as a level 20 Deadfire Wizard

- a level 16 PoE Wizard has 31 casts, a level 16 Deadfire Wizard has 15 casts

 

That sucks.

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Why not, but could be really op for highter spells. I prefer a passive that allow +1cast for lower level. But, selecting a spell could give you a +1 power level to this spell to represent the fact you're specialised.

 

Something like this ?

- PL 3, Bonus 1-3 level spells: One additional cast for level 1-3 spells.

- PL 5, Bonus 4+5 level spells: One additional cast for level 4+5 spells. Requires prior talent.

- PL 7, Bonus 6+7 level spells: One additional cast for level 6+7 spells. Requires prior talent.

- PL 9, Bonus 8+9 level spells: One additional cast for level 8+9 spells. Requires prior talent.

 

POE game mechanics are over-complicated in general. Does your proposal sounds like relief?

 

 

I actually liked the original PoE mechanics for Wizards:

- all spells availiable, spell selection with grimoires

- up to 4 casts per spell level, one bonus spell per level from passives

- reaching higher levels slowly switched casts to per encounter

 

It gave a meaningful progression to casters.

 

Deadfire does not have a progression at all:

- a level 1 Deadfire Wizard has 2x casts for level one spells, same as a level 20 Wizard

- a level 9 PoE Wizard has the same casts as a level 20 Deadfire Wizard

- a level 16 PoE Wizard has 31 casts, a level 16 Deadfire Wizard has 15 casts

 

That sucks.

 

But you need to consider that deadfire caster spells are per encounter now instead of per rest. So you have less cast but can use them in each battle.

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Why not, but could be really op for highter spells. I prefer a passive that allow +1cast for lower level. But, selecting a spell could give you a +1 power level to this spell to represent the fact you're specialised.

 

Something like this ?

- PL 3, Bonus 1-3 level spells: One additional cast for level 1-3 spells.

- PL 5, Bonus 4+5 level spells: One additional cast for level 4+5 spells. Requires prior talent.

- PL 7, Bonus 6+7 level spells: One additional cast for level 6+7 spells. Requires prior talent.

- PL 9, Bonus 8+9 level spells: One additional cast for level 8+9 spells. Requires prior talent.

 

POE game mechanics are over-complicated in general. Does your proposal sounds like relief?

 

 

I actually liked the original PoE mechanics for Wizards:

- all spells availiable, spell selection with grimoires

- up to 4 casts per spell level, one bonus spell per level from passives

- reaching higher levels slowly switched casts to per encounter

 

It gave a meaningful progression to casters.

 

Deadfire does not have a progression at all:

- a level 1 Deadfire Wizard has 2x casts for level one spells, same as a level 20 Wizard

- a level 9 PoE Wizard has the same casts as a level 20 Deadfire Wizard

- a level 16 PoE Wizard has 31 casts, a level 16 Deadfire Wizard has 15 casts

 

That sucks.

 

But you need to consider that deadfire caster spells are per encounter now instead of per rest. So you have less cast but can use them in each battle.

 

 

PoE spells were per encounter as well thanks to resting after each fight.

 

I used this tactic for the majority of all PoE battles. Then after reaching level #, I could use a ****load of lower level spells for easier battles and reserve some higher level spells to tougher battles. This mechanic was dynamic and gave me the feel of progression. Deadfires casting system sucks in comparison. A starting Wizard can cast the same number of 1st levels spells as an archmage. BS !

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PoE spells were per encounter as well thanks to resting after each fight.

 

 

 

 

I used this tactic for the majority of all PoE battles. Then after reaching level #, I could use a ****load of lower level spells for easier battles and reserve some higher level spells to tougher battles. This mechanic was dynamic and gave me the feel of progression. Deadfires casting system sucks in comparison. A starting Wizard can cast the same number of 1st levels spells as an archmage. BS !

So what you want it's OP wizard/caster, because a Mage that can cast all his spells per encounter in poe1 wasn't really balanced compared to the few per encounter abilities uses other classes got. In poe2 you don't have to old your big spells and only use low level spells since you regain all your spell use between fights. For the progression, you don't get more spell use of lower levels but at each power level you get new cast for more power full spells. There is a progression.

 

But I would like to see some perks that give you +1 cast for low spell, and/or more items that give you +cast. Idem for martial classes (like the fighter that can get +1 discipline), more uniques items like priest/rogue dagger that can regenrate some resources with special abilities.

 

Perhaps reintroduce brilliant buff with more options to get it, but tweaked. Like caster gain only 1 spell slot at a time starting from the lowest missing. You need 1 tick for each spell level, so you can regenerate a level 1 spell use each tick (6 sec?) but if you only miss a level 9 spell that would take 54 sec not casting any spells.

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PoE spells were per encounter as well thanks to resting after each fight.

 

I used this tactic for the majority of all PoE battles. Then after reaching level #, I could use a ****load of lower level spells for easier battles and reserve some higher level spells to tougher battles. This mechanic was dynamic and gave me the feel of progression. Deadfires casting system sucks in comparison. A starting Wizard can cast the same number of 1st levels spells as an archmage. BS !

 

 

I understand your point, but if we consider that it's an adult mage and not a young apprentice, it's fine for a mage has a certain number of spells.

Maybe if the experience of the class for that character was something related to the story.  

The class' experience is just for the gameplay. 

 It could be strange to see a mage with just one or two spells.

 

And I prefer spells per encounter, you feel more like a mage, you fight more using magic and not weapons. 

If the lore of the game can allow this, I think it's valid, mainly if the character has magic as an inate skill.

If the character can use magic just by grimoires, so this vision can change.

Edited by Thibax

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I wouldn't mind seeing a few higher level abilities that provide themed sets of Wizard spells across multiple spell levels. E.g. fire, acid, cold, charm, darkness, &c.

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