Monk patch 1.1

[KDubya]

I don't think that the potential +10 Intellect from duality needs a nerf.

 

• Abilities are hard capped at 35
• you have to actually gain 10 wounds to get this
• you have to not spend any wounds to maintain the +10
• I'm pretty sure that wounds have a duration and wear off as time goes by

 

Concerning the Shattered Pillar 'no more perpetual motion machine' wound generation from self funding Monk abilities; I'd say it was needed. Being able to gain wounds from Torments to do more Torments forever was broken.

 

It looks like the game is moving in the right direction towards something that can be challenging. 

[Archaven]

• Swift strikes - was granting 20% attack speed bonus, now granting 15%  

i don't quite like this nerf. of course this make the monk class appealing. but instead of making it worst, why not move this skill universal so that other class can pick it just like arms bearer? i think the game is slow enough (especially caster with casting time + recovery). it's like their existence are waste of time not to mention accuracy and penetration. you cast a spell and miss and you are just sitting duck there and wait to be smack on the face.

 

[Braven]

 

• Swift strikes - was granting 20% attack speed bonus, now granting 15%

i don't quite like this nerf. of course this make the monk class appealing. but instead of making it worst, why not move this skill universal so that other class can pick it just like arms bearer? i think the game is slow enough (especially caster with casting time + recovery). it's like their existence are waste of time not to mention accuracy and penetration. you cast a spell and miss and you are just sitting duck there and wait to be smack on the face.</p>

That is my issue with debuffs. Why debuff and maybe miss when you can just buff yourself instead with 100% accuracy. Also, the cast times are near instant for single target buffs making them obviously better for solo play. Missing is a lot worse now with limited resources and long cast times.

 

I think swift strikes is fine even nerfed. It is instant cast with no recovery, so it takes no time to use and it also comes with the quick inspiration. That extra dex provides 10 reflex and another 15% action speed (and helps spells too). So the total action speed increase is 30%. That is faster than frenzy and doesn’t come with the -10 deflection downside.

 

The nerfs I don’t like are to abilities with a cast/recovery time. Nerfing those might make them not even worth using at all. At least swift strikes is instant and there is nothing else really competing for the power source.

 

If people are bothered by slow action speed, why not just speed it up with the slider at the bottom of the interface? Isn’t that the same thing as reducing action speed, from an aesthetics standpoint?

Edited June 4, 2018 by Braven

[Clerith]

Shattered Pillar - wounds only from autos? Extreme anti-synergy for martial multiclassing and lategame in general, when you have power pool to spend. RIP my Monk ideas for 1.1. Everything else was fine, just tuning down the numbers, but this is a mechanical change that makes my favorite Monk subclass play differently and worse imo. I understand why they did it (infinite wounds from spamming abilities), but I still hate it.

Edited June 4, 2018 by Clerith

[Braven]

The wound abilities I feel have always been quite bad, with the exception of the Twins. Thunderous blows was really nerfed hard in 1.1. It is now only 12 seconds and costs 3 wounds. I think it used to be 20 seconds and 1 wound. That is a lot for just a one inspiration self-buff. I think I would rather have +3 might, +3 int/con, and armor/damage (from the wounds) instead of +5 might from a short-lived inspiration; not worth the ability point.

 

Prone is really lousy in this game. They just get right back up immediately regardless of how much int you have.

 

I only use monk to cheese things with blade turn / dance with dance, and for the passive wound bonuses. I really don’t see the point of shattered pillar. If you are not taking damage, you should use dance with death for wounds and if you are taking damage, then you can just be a standard monk for wounds. If you want a renewable resource for CCing enemies, both cipher and chanter are better at it than monk. Whispering treason costs basically nothing and charms for 20 seconds while torment stuns for 4 seconds requires a harder accuracy roll, becomes available much later in the game, and takes 3 wounds. Both won’t work on boss enemies because of either immunities or insane fortitude defenses.

Edited June 4, 2018 by Braven

[clouseau64]

fthey shall change this to generate wounds on any melee attack but the ones that spend wound.

[hilfazer]

So Turning Wheel got bigger nerf than Inner Death.

Obsidian doesn't like wound stacking monks.

Something tells me Helwalker's extra damage taken wasn't nerfed.

[Braven]

The sad part about the nerfs is that it really only hurts players who want to play the class the way it as intended.  It doesn't really hurt min/max players since they don't need the extra damage.  I have a monk/wizard I am currently playing who has sky-high defenses such that they never get hit ever.  The damage nerfs don't hurt him at all except making combat take slightly longer.

 

By nerfing the damage of wounds, Helwalker is now a "new player trap" because to make it worth while you have to min/max and exploit other bad design choices in the game, like never resting and stacking all the once-only powers you gain throughout the game that normally expire when resting.  If you want to play the class as a normal bruiser, you are better off just using a standard monk instead of helwalker because the benefits simply don't out weight the penalties.  Basically, the nerfs hit casual players the hardest and doesn't really solve the problem of difficulty for hardcore players.

Edited June 4, 2018 by Braven

[Ciphys]

The sad part about the nerfs is that it really only hurts players who want to play the class the way it as intended.  It doesn't really hurt min/max players since they don't need the extra damage.  I have a monk/wizard I am currently playing who has sky-high defenses such that they never get hit ever.  The damage nerfs don't hurt him at all except making combat take slightly longer.

 

By nerfing the damage of wounds, Helwalker is now a "new player trap" because to make it worth while you have to min/max and exploit other bad design choices in the game, like never resting and stacking all the once-only powers you gain throughout the game that normally expire when resting.  If you want to play the class as a normal bruiser, you are better off just using a standard monk instead of helwalker because the benefits simply don't out weight the penalties.  Basically, the nerfs hit casual players the hardest and doesn't really solve the problem of difficulty for hardcore players.

Agree completely. Helwalker right now is just plain inefficient, which is kind of sad, since I liked the idea of a risk/reward type of gameplay that they promoted. Trading additive damage from the might and a "okay" lash in the form of turning wheel, in addition to a boost in intellect for a massive +50% damage(that is multiplicative) taken is just plain bad unless you are min maxing a build out of your mind and do not plan on getting hit at all.

 

Kind of hope they tune down the penalty a bit if they aim to keep it this way. Maybe 3% for each wound instead of 5%? You are still, afterall, trading additive damage output for multiplicative damage taken, so the least they can do is match it on a 1:1 ratio. 

[dunehunter]

Monk is still the only class has highest ‘passive’ lash bonus.

 

1. You can combine it with some abilities with high additive bonus, for example finishing blow + backstab.

 

2. Or item abilities that has high base damage, like that pin down from Whisper of the endless path.

 

Paladin has lash too, but since it’s an active, u cannot combine it with other active abilities.

 

Makes sense? Remeber that all active not stack, all passive stacks, so a good passive always has better potentials.

 

Btw in previous patch Inner Death damage is multiplied by 50% due to Turning Wheel lash, that again proofs a good lash passive can be very strong, so a nerf is reasonable imo.

Edited June 4, 2018 by dunehunter

[knownastherat]

The sad part about the nerfs is that it really only hurts players who want to play the class the way it as intended.  It doesn't really hurt min/max players since they don't need the extra damage.  I have a monk/wizard I am currently playing who has sky-high defenses such that they never get hit ever.  The damage nerfs don't hurt him at all except making combat take slightly longer.

 

By nerfing the damage of wounds, Helwalker is now a "new player trap" because to make it worth while you have to min/max and exploit other bad design choices in the game, like never resting and stacking all the once-only powers you gain throughout the game that normally expire when resting.  If you want to play the class as a normal bruiser, you are better off just using a standard monk instead of helwalker because the benefits simply don't out weight the penalties.  Basically, the nerfs hit casual players the hardest and doesn't really solve the problem of difficulty for hardcore players.

 

Of course, nerfs hit "casuals" most simply because they, for whatever reason, do not metagame but play a game. IIRC the solution for casuals, who were happy with being strong even on PotD, echoed on this board before the nerfs was: Play story mode. I bet in story mode Helwalker still owns. 

 

So instead of creating content, fixing bugs, adding QoL features, or even working on a new project, we gonna have endless balancing as this makes "someone" apparently very happy.

 

Personally, I don't care if this or that is nerfed simply because once my character becomes too powerful I restart with another, just I cant get to my head what the problem with being strong is because its a choice. 

[Climhazzard]

Shattered Pillar - wounds only from autos? Extreme anti-synergy for martial multiclassing and lategame in general, when you have power pool to spend. RIP my Monk ideas for 1.1. Everything else was fine, just tuning down the numbers, but this is a mechanical change that makes my favorite Monk subclass play differently and worse imo. I understand why they did it (infinite wounds from spamming abilities), but I still hate it.

 

 

I think it's probably fine.  With lesser wounds you'll get about 2 wounds per hit and 3 wounds per crit endgame on your normal attacks.  Hit the enemy from 1 to 2 times after torment then do it again, if he's stunned for 6 seconds you can still stunlock him.  The main problem for that is that torment targets fortitude which is often the highest enemy defense, but that was a problem before too.

[Soulmojo]

I don't think that the potential +10 Intellect from duality needs a nerf.

 

• Abilities are hard capped at 35
• you have to actually gain 10 wounds to get this
• you have to not spend any wounds to maintain the +10
• I'm pretty sure that wounds have a duration and wear off as time goes by

 

Concerning the Shattered Pillar 'no more perpetual motion machine' wound generation from self funding Monk abilities; I'd say it was needed. Being able to gain wounds from Torments to do more Torments forever was broken.

 

It looks like the game is moving in the right direction towards something that can be challenging. 

 

Your reasoning is right of course. Although I it is very easy to get up to 10 wounds even if you do not play with shattered pillar.

One thing I noticed, that at the start of the combat ranged and melee enemies attack the closest first. So if your character is standing in the front he will be attacked by every ranged and a good amount of melee. + If you keep your threat level high with monk your monk get attacked the most. I don't know how the threath level is calculated, but it must be calculated through damage potential. if you combine that with mediocre armor and defenses, you can effectively maintain max wound. Monk was always a fine tuned killing machine where there is a sweet spot if you know what you are doing.

 

Don't forget the various passives which also help wound gain. Not quite hard in this second installment.

 

Now it is quite hard to put this into words why I think this stacking intellect bonus is harmful so all of you get what I see. No question that math is on your side on this subject. Sometimes I question this myself or more precisely why do I bother to raise it. I have to start on the subject of necessity. In PoE1 there were two main routes you could take. There was the face dps torments reach monk route, and there was the facetank swift strikes monk. There having high intellect or not didn't matter, because there were alternatives to reach max potential whether you focused intellect or not. In this second installment the abilities and the class itself is designed such a way, that you want to use most abilites and you will reach max potential by using most of them. Since in this game buffs and debuffs have a much bigger role than it was in the first game, it is vital to maintain buffs and debuffs at an adequate level to reach max potential. Some abilites monk have have very low duration, and some abilites have ok duration. Now since you want to maintain the low duration abilities too, you will invest in intellect like the current builds do. But this puts abilites with ok duration to the broken category eg. torments reach, stunning blow, blade turning etc. If you don't invest into intellect with duality and stats, and keep on low level, then you can basically ignore a lot of abilities designed for you to use as they become quite less effective which is not fun. 

 

I would much rather play with a type of monk, where the base duration of abilites and abilites effects provide adequate enough duration to maintain with power level upscale, even when you decide to not invest into intellect at all. And where you don't have an option to stack this much intellect because you don't necessary need it therefore it is not a necessity.

 

Take fighter for example. It relies heavily on self buff abilites, but the buffs it has have adequate base duration, and those base durations upscales with power level well enough, to a point where intellect is not that important commodity. it is good to have, you will probably better off having some extra, but not vital.

 

To summarize it monk relies too much on intellect compared to other stats and Duality of Mortal presence INT bonus harmfully helps and promotes this reliance. At the same time it locks the possiblity to increase the durations via balancing. If you take this bonus, and balance durations according so, you remove this heavy reliance on intellect, you create an ability where both effect are equally useful(CON and PER) , and remove every potential broken synergy too. 

 

I wrote in previous comments in other topics that I don't like a design where you have to have some ability or bonus to make other abilites function.

Edited June 5, 2018 by Soulmojo

[gkathellar]

 

Shattered Pillar - wounds only from autos? Extreme anti-synergy for martial multiclassing and lategame in general, when you have power pool to spend. RIP my Monk ideas for 1.1. Everything else was fine, just tuning down the numbers, but this is a mechanical change that makes my favorite Monk subclass play differently and worse imo. I understand why they did it (infinite wounds from spamming abilities), but I still hate it.

 

I think it's probably fine.  With lesser wounds you'll get about 2 wounds per hit and 3 wounds per crit endgame on your normal attacks.  Hit the enemy from 1 to 2 times after torment then do it again, if he's stunned for 6 seconds you can still stunlock him.  The main problem for that is that torment targets fortitude which is often the highest enemy defense, but that was a problem before too.

 

The issue is more that a multiclass shattered pillar can't get wounds off of their non-monk attack abilities. That sort of discourages them from using said abilities, ever.

Edited June 5, 2018 by gkathellar

[Erik Dirk]

I'm surprised fists didn't get hit. They should be the highest pure dps weapon as they don't have additional enchantments. However their current dps is insanely high. My devoted monk had 5x the damage of any companion when I got bored mid run.

[Kaylon]

I'm also surprised they didn't nerf the duality bonuses to 5 (like any inspiration), considering the other changes. For a tank or a ranged character the kelwalker is probably one of the best choices for multi.

[Haplok]

Monk is still the only class has highest ‘passive’ lash bonus.

 

1. You can combine it with some abilities with high additive bonus, for example finishing blow + backstab.

 

2. Or item abilities that has high base damage, like that pin down from Whisper of the endless path.

 

Paladin has lash too, but since it’s an active, u cannot combine it with other active abilities.

 

Makes sense? Remeber that all active not stack, all passive stacks, so a good passive always has better potentials.

 

Btw in previous patch Inner Death damage is multiplied by 50% due to Turning Wheel lash, that again proofs a good lash passive can be very strong, so a nerf is reasonable imo.

 

That you can get at level... 16 if multiclassed. Neat, but the game is mostly over then. Earlier at least Lightning Strikes provided a healthy punch

[Akruks]

So, no more empowered inner death? Pure monk have not reason to exist anymore

[AndreaColombo]

If people are bothered by slow action speed, why not just speed it up with the slider at the bottom of the interface? Isn’t that the same thing as reducing action speed, from an aesthetics standpoint?

Not quite.

 

The slider speeds up everything, not just recovery. What you end up with is a ridiculous Benny Hill Show effect where everybody moves at an unnaturally accelerated pace, yet recovery is still too long relative to everything else. It also makes thing more chaotic and harder to follow.

 

The problem is not that combat speed is too slow; the problem is that recovery is too slow. Weapon recovery values are too long; they were better in the early beta. Now they nerfed recovery buffs too so we can all stare at our idle party throughout combat and yawn profusely between weapon swings.

[Soulmojo]

I'm also surprised they didn't nerf the duality bonuses to 5 (like any inspiration), considering the other changes. For a tank or a ranged character the kelwalker is probably one of the best choices for multi.

 

I believe for two main reason. For one, monk don't combat defensive bonuses. Like at all. They have no deflection bonus of any kind, they don't have self healing. The only defensive bonus they have is that con con bonus, an iron wheel. That is why. As for duality int bonus, the reason being that they have no defensive bonuses -> reliance of disables, + some of their skills are low duration. So inherently they kept int bonus, so their disables could serve as an effective defense as well as to be able to maintain their low duration skills. 

Edited June 9, 2018 by Soulmojo

[Soulmojo]

So, no more empowered inner death? Pure monk have not reason to exist anymore

 

They made mortification of the soul not able to empower. Not inner death as far as I know.