Grimoire - in Pillars of Eternity 2...

[Tawmis]

So I loved the purpose of Grimoires in the first Pillars... Because you can learn spells from various books you acquire... in the second one... What's the point of Grimoires? I see some that fetch a high value - but there's no spells or anything you can extract? You can't even (as far as I've been able to figure out) change what spells are there (and is there even a reason to? Is the Wizard able to cast ANY spell they know, or just ones in the Grimoires?)

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Not super urgent; I am already level 14 and doing fine. Was just curious while I was on the forum posting about a bug I had found.

 

[MortyTheGobbo]

They supplement the spells wizards learn from levelling. You can cast any that you've picked on level-ups, plus any in your equipped grimoire. I've found them much more practical than in PoE 1, to be honest.

[Katarack21]

Personally not a big fan of the new grimoire system. You're supposed to switch them out situationally as you need different spells, but I just picked one good one with spells I liked and kept it forever.

[Hebruixe]

I really miss the old system.

[Yosharian]

Personally not a big fan of the new grimoire system. You're supposed to switch them out situationally as you need different spells, but I just picked one good one with spells I liked and kept it forever.

Is there anything to indicate that 'picking one with good spells and keeping it forever' isn't intended behaviour?

 

Just because you can switch grimoires doesn't mean the devs didn't imagine players would stick with one the really liked.

[Katarack21]

 

Personally not a big fan of the new grimoire system. You're supposed to switch them out situationally as you need different spells, but I just picked one good one with spells I liked and kept it forever.

Is there anything to indicate that 'picking one with good spells and keeping it forever' isn't intended behaviour?

 

Just because you can switch grimoires doesn't mean the devs didn't imagine players would stick with one the really liked.

 

Yes, Josh Sawyer repeatedly discussed this intent, although I can't seem to find the quotes right now. Also the description of grimoires includes the line "Though all grimoires are limited by a finite set of pages, many accomplished wizards are known to carry several grimoires at once to handle a variety of situations."

Edited May 28, 2018 by Katarack21

[Yosharian]

 

 

Personally not a big fan of the new grimoire system. You're supposed to switch them out situationally as you need different spells, but I just picked one good one with spells I liked and kept it forever.

Is there anything to indicate that 'picking one with good spells and keeping it forever' isn't intended behaviour?

 

Just because you can switch grimoires doesn't mean the devs didn't imagine players would stick with one the really liked.

 

Yes, Josh Sawyer repeatedly discussed this intent, although I can't seem to find the quotes right now. Also the description of grimoires includes the line "Though all grimoires are limited by a finite set of pages, many accomplished wizards are known to carry several grimoires at once to handle a variety of situations."

 

 

But that doesn't mean that just using one is unintended behaviour.

[Elerond]

Grimoires are just like weapons, some people change their weapons depending on enemies they face and some people just use one they like regardless of who they face.

[Yosharian]

Grimoires are just like weapons, some people change their weapons depending on enemies they face and some people just use one they like regardless of who they face.

 

Yeah, exactly.

[Katarack21]

Grimoires are just like weapons, some people change their weapons depending on enemies they face and some people just use one they like regardless of who they face.

Right, and that's fair, but it doesn't mean that the game system wasn't designed around a particular play-style being expected. They've mentioned repeatedly that they also expected (and expect) people to switch out their weapons depending on enemy vulnerabilities; in fact people not doing this in PoE 1 nearly as much as expected is part of the reason they redesigned the system (it indicated that there was a disconnect between their design goals and the way people actually played the game, so they changed things around some what).

[Koth]

Also note that there are a couple of grims in the game that contain unique spells that are not otherwise available. I stole this list from another post somewhere in these forums:

 

Weathered Grimoire (Starting Grimoire for main character): Arcane Assault

Unique Grimoire from Map Shop in Neketaka: Snakes as a Summoned Weapon

Ninagauth’s Teachings (Arkemyr’s Vault): Ninagauth’s Death Ray and Shadowflame

Iron-clasped Grimoire: Concelhaut’s Draining Missiles and Crushing Doom 

Arkemyr’s Grimoire: Arkemyr’s Brilliant Departure and Arkemyr’s Mercurial Madness 

Llengrath’s Grimoire (not the exact name, for sale at the Dark Cupboard): Llengrath’s Superior Elemental Bulwark 

[Ad Hoc]

The way wizards gain spells in this game really seems to encourage sticking with one grimoire, so you never overlap.

[Elerond]

I like play my wizards so that I pick mostly passive abilities and some protective spells and switch between couple grimories depending on what kind enemies I am facing (so mainly choice between fire spells, missiles and debuffs).

[algroth]

There's also at least one grimoire that has some abilities/bonuses attached to it. With regards to that point, however, I'm a little disappointed at how few grimoires have any special abilities attached to them. I think that could have acted as a major incentive to try out different grimoires or even keep those without unique spells.

[Guest 4ward]

i‘d welcome a change in the main UI for making it easier to change and decide. Now it is that when i hover over the rucksack the quick slot grimoires appear and when i hover over them a window pops up telling me more or less just the name‘s grimoire with a right-click for further info. Instead of that window popping up i‘d like a bar to appear on the right side next to the quick slot grimoires. On that bar all spells from that grimoire would be shown (greyed out icons with e.g. a red border) which are different from the spells that i have available to cast now (so not all spells from that grimoire are shown but just the ones that are different to the currently usable). When i click on one of those spells to use them, the game automatically changes the grimoire for me (with all spells from that grimoire now appearing as my available spells).  This is just a suggestion, i‘d like the changing to be more convenient in usage.

[evilcat]

One way to look at grimoires: they are like Priest devotion list, which contains 2 spells per level, and can swap in combat. So it is quite powerful in comparison.

There is 1(?) grimoir with special effect (bonus spellcast, but easy interupted)

There are grimoires with rare spells, which you cant learn by level.

Was using Ninagauths most of game, had Spark and Fire, but actually never changed it

https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Ninagauth%27s_Teachings

 

For me grimoires work well enought, and are more favourable mechanic to what druid/priest have.

 

One way to improve:

More themed grimoires. There are some with theme, but could be more. A lot of grimoires look like they have just random spells in it, but this impression may be not true, and just result of some spells being bad. Grimoir ideas:

- Dedicated to one or two element

- dedicated to school, contains spells only from school or ones which are not banned. Book of Evocation

- for battlemages

- for CC

- Dedicated to Archimagi (there are some of this).

 

Some grimoires could containt spells from Druid/Priest list, to achieve theme (like corrodive magic) that would be a real bonus.

 

There is also a path of grimoires having passive bonus and malus. Like "+1PL in our favoire school, -1PL in all other schools" so it will be balanced.

 

Also "Deep Pocket" could be neutral passive avaiable at level 1. Is hard to switch grimoires if we have no belt space to keep them.

Edited May 28, 2018 by evilcat

[Stephen Unsworth-Mitchell]

In POE 1 I had 4 Grimoires, 1 had lot defensive with fav offensive spells. 2 had mostly offensive spells and 3 was more a necro for Aloth, 4th was Lightning and flame spells. I did change between them based on what I needed.

 

System in POE 1 I could use Offensive spells Grimoire, Lightning and flame Grimoire or Necro for lot easier fights and switch to balanced defence and offense Grimoire for tough fights. I could change or roleplay lot more as could do it my way.

 

In POE 2 I found I quickly found a Grimoire I liked and then choose aloth's spells at level up based around that Grimoire. I did try changing Grimoire a couple times but found it to cost me spells I could use as I had not built aloth around said Grimoire. I might pay out once respec aloth to fit better Grimoire but I not going keep spending money respecing aloth.

 

So personally I found new system to limit me changing Grimoire more then first game.

 

 

[Slotharingia]

Basically, although you are supposed to swtich out, unless you keep respeccing, you don't. Because you'll be trying to pick spells on level up that aren't in your gimoire, and as a lot of the spells in Grimoires overlap, you just end up getting confused. For instance, if I want to cast fireball and then realise it's not in the Grimpoire I have equipped, I just won't use it. I'm not gonna switch the grimoire for one spell and then switch back, esp since casting takes long enough as is, and the mobs have usually moved by the time you are done, or your mates have moved into the aoe. Also, there's no grimoire that's really especially great. They tend to have 1-2 really good unique spells.

In POE 1 I had 4 Grimoires, 1 had lot defensive with fav offensive spells. 2 had mostly offensive spells and 3 was more a necro for Aloth, 4th was Lightning and flame spells. I did change between them based on what I needed.

 

System in POE 1 I could use Offensive spells Grimoire, Lightning and flame Grimoire or Necro for lot easier fights and switch to balanced defence and offense Grimoire for tough fights. I could change or roleplay lot more as could do it my way.

In POE 2 I found I quickly found a Grimoire I liked and then choose aloth's spells at level up based around that Grimoire. I did try changing Grimoire a couple times but found it to cost me spells I could use as I had not built aloth around said Grimoire. I might pay out once respec aloth to fit better Grimoire but I not going keep spending money respecing aloth.

 

So personally I found new system to limit me changing Grimoire more then first game.

 

 

 

 

Same. I switched out way more in POE1 as the Grimoires were actually different. Edited May 28, 2018 by Slotharingia

[PizzaSHARK]

 

Personally not a big fan of the new grimoire system. You're supposed to switch them out situationally as you need different spells, but I just picked one good one with spells I liked and kept it forever.

Is there anything to indicate that 'picking one with good spells and keeping it forever' isn't intended behaviour?

 

Just because you can switch grimoires doesn't mean the devs didn't imagine players would stick with one the really liked.

 

 

This presents design issues.  You can't design encounters around "hey, let's design this to be very tough if the player doesn't, say, debuff with the 2nd level Miasma spell and then hit them with an AOE disable like Confusion," because you can't guarantee that the player has access to those spells.  So you have to design a fight such that a player with a blaster mage can handle it just as readily as one with a control mage... and vice-versa.

 

What's the point of including grimoire swapping at all if they don't intend players to make use of it?  I think the current system could be used as-is if Wizards had separate grimoire slots rather than having to pay a "quick slot tax" that no other class has to deal with.

[Katarack21]

Total misunderstanding, so deleted post.

Carry on.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Katarack21

[Yosharian]

 

 

Personally not a big fan of the new grimoire system. You're supposed to switch them out situationally as you need different spells, but I just picked one good one with spells I liked and kept it forever.

Is there anything to indicate that 'picking one with good spells and keeping it forever' isn't intended behaviour?

 

Just because you can switch grimoires doesn't mean the devs didn't imagine players would stick with one the really liked.

 

 

This presents design issues.  You can't design encounters around "hey, let's design this to be very tough if the player doesn't, say, debuff with the 2nd level Miasma spell and then hit them with an AOE disable like Confusion," because you can't guarantee that the player has access to those spells.  So you have to design a fight such that a player with a blaster mage can handle it just as readily as one with a control mage... and vice-versa.

 

What's the point of including grimoire swapping at all if they don't intend players to make use of it?  I think the current system could be used as-is if Wizards had separate grimoire slots rather than having to pay a "quick slot tax" that no other class has to deal with.

 

 

I don't think the added versatility of an extra grimoire really presents that much of a balancing problem, considering the speed at which Wizards can cast spells.

[PizzaSHARK]

 

 

 

Personally not a big fan of the new grimoire system. You're supposed to switch them out situationally as you need different spells, but I just picked one good one with spells I liked and kept it forever.

Is there anything to indicate that 'picking one with good spells and keeping it forever' isn't intended behaviour?

 

Just because you can switch grimoires doesn't mean the devs didn't imagine players would stick with one the really liked.

 

 

This presents design issues.  You can't design encounters around "hey, let's design this to be very tough if the player doesn't, say, debuff with the 2nd level Miasma spell and then hit them with an AOE disable like Confusion," because you can't guarantee that the player has access to those spells.  So you have to design a fight such that a player with a blaster mage can handle it just as readily as one with a control mage... and vice-versa.

 

What's the point of including grimoire swapping at all if they don't intend players to make use of it?  I think the current system could be used as-is if Wizards had separate grimoire slots rather than having to pay a "quick slot tax" that no other class has to deal with.

 

 

I don't think the added versatility of an extra grimoire really presents that much of a balancing problem, considering the speed at which Wizards can cast spells.

 

 

The speed a fart travels upwind?

 

I'd say it impacts Priests more than anyone, to be honest.  Priests in Pillars, particularly, were seemingly designed around having that Swiss Army Knife and I think were often played reactively as often as proactively, especially if you didn't know the encounter's gimmicks ahead of time.  The combination of limiting their spell selection and making Inspirations suppress Afflictions (and giving everyone and their grandma a bunch of self-buffs at low cost) has largely removed that aspect of Priest gameplay, which is maybe why they feel so weak to me.  Or maybe it's because Xoti's attributes are all over the place and she kinda sucks as both Priest and as a Monk.

Edited May 28, 2018 by PizzaSHARK

[theBalthazar]

My opinion.

 

In fact there is not enough passive to not pick one or two spells each line...

 

So, grimoires are completely useless : you will use your CHOSEN spell. And like there is only two use of spells... Except special effect (+1 use, uniques spells), grimoires add nothing.

[Aranduin]

I dont like the new grimoire system. The Wizards now are D&D Sorcerer. I prefer the old system.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Aranduin

[Wormerine]

My opinion.

 

In fact there is not enough passive to not pick one or two spells each line...

 

So, grimoires are completely useless : you will use your CHOSEN spell. And like there is only two use of spells... Except special effect (+1 use, uniques spells), grimoires add nothing.

That’s assuming that two or three spells you picked will be ones best suited to every situation.

 

Aloth ended up switching between 3 Grimoires depending who he was facing. Couple features that would be greatly welcome:

1) renaming Grimoires - just allow me to rename it. I don’t always remember which one had which spells.

2) better feedback - when looking through a grimoire grey out spells I memorised, to easier judge how much it adds within a glance.